Roast Matthew Lloyd

[TradeDraft]

That NAB game against the Dogs really did illustrate just how bad we can be. I do think though that we will see an improvement in round 1, and that it should continue to improve as some of our young defenders gain more experience.

So us making the Top 8 is a Huge Ask?

 

[Markfs]

Absolute flog, on Footy Classified tonight he was bagging out the Pies saying our backline is not good enough and we are weak in the key posts. To summarise he said they have a very good midfield but we are weak at either end of the ground. He goes on to say look at there backline Ben Reid you just can't rely on his body and that leaves Frost and Marsh as our only two key defenders. Then he goes on to bag everyone's foot skills.

All I have to say to him is Lloydo once again your poorly researched opinion has made you look like a fool. Too say that behind Reid we only have Marsh and Frost is factually incorrect as you fail to mention Nathan Brown a man who is a premiership full back and finished top 10 in our BnF last year. Stupid statements like that destroy what little credibility you have

only a flog would say that Reid's body in unreliable...

 

[Seedsfan]

What I heard ftom Lloyd. Makes him sound like he has no idea as he has nothing backing his Claim

He also said we are no good in the key posts up forward, I tend to agree there that while Moore and Gualt show signs they aren't there yet but that is coming from a man that has been riding Dannihers dick for the past 3 seasons. Pumping his tires up every chance he gets. Lloyd does not know how to be objective

 

[PepperFace]

So then you believe we are NOT a top 8 Side then?

How did you get to that conclusion?

 

[jmac70]

So us making the Top 8 is a Huge Ask?

I don't think we will make the finals this season.

 

[TheWing121]

Not sure why everyone is upset. he was mainly talking about our key posts. Our backline / forward key positions are very weak compared with the top sides. Brown is a good negating defender but in todays game it isn't as great of strength you need to be able to kick as well. Take Reid out and you really have Brown / Frost who are only negating defenders and Marsh who has played 5 games and is unproven.
Apart from Toovey the BP / HBF are also largely unproven, yes Langdon and Williams look like they will be decent players but need to prove themselves and continue to improve.
In the forward line Cloke hasn't been in the top 15 goal kickers in the league in the last 2 seasons so is hardly the player he was. Then unproven players in Moore / Gault / Witts / Grundy and someone like Jesse White who will likely get delisted. Our smalls once again are looking alright but the only standout Elliot had a terrible season last year (injury aside). So we are hardly setting the world on fire with proven players in these positions compared with the top teams.
Sure I am hopeful for the future and believe 16 or 17 could be a breakout year, but until those players actually breakout we do have weak Forward and Backlines compared around the league's better sides

 

[Maggie5]

What I heard ftom Lloyd. Makes him sound like he has no idea as he has nothing backing his Claim

Agree, not sure how you can rate our defence when he omitted Maynard, Toovey, Oxley, Langdon, Ramsay, Brown out of the equation and the fact that Pendlebury and others drop back to help out. He is a knob!

 

[Seedsfan]

Not sure why everyone is upset. he was mainly talking about our key posts. Our backline / forward key positions are very weak compared with the top sides. Brown is a good negating defender but in todays game it isn't as great of strength you need to be able to kick as well. Take Reid out and you really have Brown / Frost who are only negating defenders and Marsh who has played 5 games and is unproven.
Apart from Toovey the BP / HBF are also largely unproven, yes Langdon and Williams look like they will be decent players but need to prove themselves and continue to improve.
In the forward line Cloke hasn't been in the top 15 goal kickers in the league in the last 2 seasons so is hardly the player he was. Then unproven players in Moore / Gault / Witts / Grundy and someone like Jesse White who will likely get delisted. Our smalls once again are looking alright but the only standout Elliot had a terrible season last year (injury aside). So we are hardly setting the world on fire with proven players in these positions compared with the top teams.
Sure I am hopeful for the future and believe 16 or 17 could be a breakout year, but until those players actually breakout we do have weak Forward and Backlines compared around the league's better sides

Elliott kicks 37 goals and was hampered by injuries in the back half hardly a terrible year.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

Our backline leaked like a sieve during preseason, allowing scores of 125, 77 and 105. We'll need to improve on that bigtime to make the 8 this year.

 

[Maggie5]

He also said we are no good in the key posts up forward, I tend to agree there that while Moore and Gualt show signs they aren't there yet but that is coming from a man that has been riding Dannihers dick for the past 3 seasons. Pumping his tires up every chance he gets. Lloyd does not know how to be objective

Don't forget he is also coaching him. Being a good ex footballer does not make him an expert.
Think we are giving too much credit for critical analysis.

 

[Seedsfan]

Our backline leaked like a sieve during preseason, allowing scores of 125, 77 and 105. We'll need to improve on that bigtime to make the 8 this year.

Maybe the game is becoming more attacking

 

[Maggie5]

Our backline leaked like a sieve during preseason, allowing scores of 125, 77 and 105. We'll need to improve on that bigtime to make the 8 this year.

However if we continue to kick a winning score does it matter?

 

[Wayne Arnold]

We were the highest scoring team throughout the NAB challenge. Therefore, the backline is not so much of a worry. Although it seems you're only permitted to draw negative conclusions from the preseason.

Edit: second highest (1 point less than Adelaide).

 

[Maggie5]

We were the highest scoring team throughout the NAB challenge. Therefore, the backline is not so much of a worry. Although it seems you're only permitted to draw negative conclusions from the preseason.

I try to start my day being positive which is the way I am looking at our first few games.
New year, new hope.

 

[TradeDraft]

How did you get to that conclusion?

Lloyd said we would not make Top 8 and you said you agreed with him

 

[CFC2010]

However if we continue to kick a winning score does it matter?

You are a wise woman Maggie5 do you believe shoot-out footy wins you many finals?

It wasn't rocket science what Lloyd was discussing our defense is our weakest link IMO anyway.

 

[anshell]

I have a feeling our backline will play a lot tighter in the home and away season than it did in the pre-season.Also,if you put Reid down there,it improves significantly.His intercept marking and precise kicking can not be under estimated.

 

[JB1975]

Then I think you are also a bit biased, but thats ok .

My analysis, I think he is generally correct, and our midfield is now a strength but we are lacking depth in our key position roles and our skill level down back is poor. We are relying heavily on some youngsters improving, to give us any depth in KPP at all. And without Reid, our tall back stocks are very limited depending on two stoppers and one dashing slightly undersized player who has had a poor preseason to put it mildly. We would probably be targeting a key back at least for FA if we are being smart. We have put most of our "class" eggs, for want of a better term, into the midfield. If you look at our backline, it is over endowed with players who were either rookies or low draft picks, and that is an indication of the fact most of them have significant limitations.

There is hope if Scharenberg returns for example, and if Reid returns, that things may get better. For now though, I expect our defence to have more bad days than good.

So I think Lloyd's assessment is generally pretty level headed, not far off mine, and one I doubt I'm alone in. I guess I find it ironic given his concerns that started this thread two years ago proved pretty much right.

And I guess I also don't agree that disposal skill is something you can improve easily. Our history suggests that poor disposers of the ball rarely get better, at least at Collingwood. It is in fact one of our real weaknesses as a skill coaching domain, and has been for as long as I can remember.

Agree with a lot of that, and I don't have a great problem with Lloyd's analysis (notwithstanding the Brown oversight).

I disagree about the extent to which disposal can improve. Young players make bad decisions and tire easily. This means that experience and an ability to hold up over the duration of a game can improve efficiency, and I think that players like Adams and Sinclair are cases in point.

I also think that our scoring problems have partly been a function of ball movement further up the ground. I'm less concerned about personnel in the forward 50 and more concerned about how the ball gets to them. An improving JDG, Adams and Greenwood should free up Pendles, Sidebottom, Crisp and Treloar to spread more and get the ball to the forwards more effectively.

Overall...we'll be a highly competitive side with some question marks over our defence.

 

[Maggie5]

You are a wise woman Maggie5 do you believe shoot-out footy wins you many finals?

It wasn't rocket science what Lloyd was discussing our defense is our weakest link IMO anyway.

Why do you presume it has to be a shoot-out?

Which team has the best defence do you think or has the best across all lines? I don't think that there is one team that doesn't have some weaknesses.

Personally I would look at our centre clearances as a bigger issue.

It is more his lack of objectivity that I don't like about him and if you have watched the show in the past, doesn't like being challenged or caught of making errors of judgement. I consider him biased against Collingwood and disregard his opinion.

 

[CFC2010]

Why do you presume it has to be a shoot-out?

Which team has the best defence do you think or has the best across all lines? I don't think that there is one team that doesn't have some weaknesses.

Personally I would look at our centre clearances as a bigger issue.

It is more his lack of objectivity that I don't like about him and if you have watched the show in the past, doesn't like being challenged or caught of making errors of judgement. I consider him biased against Collingwood and disregard his opinion.

What you and Seedsfan suggested it did come across like defense is not as important as attack hence the shoot out comment.

I think we have addressed our centre clearances this year significantly.

As for Lloyd lets be honest he is not the sharpest tool in the shed but I actually agree with his call on our backline and I am 50/50 about us making the finals.

A fit Reid does alleviate most of my concerns and would probably shut Lloydy up also in 2016.

 

[TheWing121]

Elliott kicks 37 goals and was hampered by injuries in the back half hardly a terrible year.

Sorry I was probably a bit harsh. At his best Elliot could be an All Australian small forward injury aside he could have already be their. But the fact last year he wasn't in the top 10 goal kickers for small forwards

 

[Buckley is my hero]

Agree that the centre clearances are our biggest issue, not the backline. If we can't address that then we can forget about making finals this year. We're actually not too bad at the stoppages, so shouldn't be too hard to fix, especially now we're added a class clearance specialist in Treloar. Part of the fix I think is playing our best centre clearance ruckman in Grundy. Otherwise, if that doesn't work out, we fall back on Witts or Cox, who are better tap ruckmen.

 

[DWil6]

Surely everyone agrees our backline has been an Achilles heel the last few years. We have leaked goals and often in bunches. It's a problem that hopefully we can rectify but I have to agree with Lloyd that it's an issue at the moment. Good defences win finals. No way the Hawks won't slice through us if we don't improve.

 

[Maggie5]

Part of the fix I think is playing our best centre clearance ruckman in Grundy.

Do you have any evidence to support this?

 

[mike123]

That's glass half empty Mike.

No the glass is completely empty, and will be until we get elite kicks down back.

Sinclair's been kicking at over 90% efficiency through the the practice games.

His kicking has improved but he hasn't been overly damaging with the ball plus he's injury prone.

Ramsay and Oxley have always been good kicks.

I disagree with Ramsay. He was a poor kick when he came but has improved over the last couple of years. Still like Sinclair isn't overly damaging. And Oxley is a good kick but poor in almost every other area.

Maynard is an elite kick who just needs to string a few games together to gain confidence.

I agree Maynard with time will be an elite kick but he isn't right now.

Reid is an elite kick, but Brown is better at negating opposition forwards.

Reid who is injury prone, which was he's point.

At some point we get Scharenberg back, who is an elite kick.

Not at any point this year, which is what Lloyd was talking about.

Goodyear, Phillips and Crocker all capable of playing down back and all good kicks.

None have played a game yet and they were either recruited as midfielders as forwards. They might be capable down back but neither have shown it yet. Goodyear last year struggled until he was given more time in the middle of the ground and Phillips kicking consistency still needs work.

True, at this point of time, our backline has weaknesses,

Then why are you arguing against it if is true? Its not like this is a new problem either its been true for the last 3 years.

but who is to say that by the middle of the season, when players have settled into their positions, that our backline won't be one of our strengths.

So you're agruing based on a very slim possibility?

Easy for ex-footballers from opposition clubs, turned media commentators, who hate us, to look for excuses to dismiss us.

And it will continue to be easy until we fix those weaknesses.