Matthew Lloyd's Top 20 players of 2021

[Taylor Moss]

I'm sure I was included in your fishing expedition - which is no real achievement mind you- I'm regularly baited in as I am always happy to respond quite seriously to trolling on Bigfooty given that you just never know (half of the trolling on here is genuine ignorance )

I honestly didn’t expect to get as many as I did. As I admitted, I reckon Mitchell is a jet and my tongue was firmly in cheek every time

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I honestly didn’t expect to get as many as I did. As I admitted, I reckon Mitchell is a jet and my tongue was firmly in cheek every time

I don't know if you've noticed but Hawthorn supporters seem to be one of the easier supporter bases to get a rise out of on here - we seem to be more sensitive (and a few of us more biased) than most (especially young Dommy).

I personally was all too happy to use the opportunity in relation to Titch as even if you didn't completely believe what you were saying, there's definately a few on here that do.

 

[Taylor Moss]

I don't know if you've noticed but Hawthorn supporters seem to be one of the easier supporter bases to get a rise out of on here - we seem to be more sensitive (and a few of us more biased) than most (especially young Dommy).

I personally was all too happy to use the opportunity in relation to Titch as even if you didn't completely believe what you were saying, there's definately a few on here that do.

Hahaha there’s some special types here.
Good luck with the Hawkers this year mate. Hope you can overcome having Mitchell in the side

 

[danster168]

Parish doesn't get enough credit for his season. Comparing his averages to the players in that top 10 Parish is.

6th for disposals
3rd for inside 50s
3rd for metres gained
equal 5th for contested possessions
1st for centre clearances
1st for clearances
equal 3rd for goal assists
2nd for score involvements
2nd for score launches

all well and good but he turned into a turd as soon as he was tagged. whereas everyone else has learned to handle them.

 

[Tylerbombers]

all well and good but he turned into a turd as soon as he was tagged. whereas everyone else has learned to handle them.

He got tagged out of 3 games, he also played more forward time for 2, thats all reflected in his averages though, just like any other players bad games. At some point his excellent games outweigh his quiet ones.

 

[danster168]

He got tagged out of 3 games, he also played more forward time for 2, thats all reflected in his averages though, just like any other players bad games. At some point his excellent games outweigh his quiet ones.

Agreed. he racks them up. I still have question marks over his kicking and his contested work. Yes he wins contested possessions through reading the play and bounce of the ball extremely well but he is still quite weak physically and doesn't win his own ball as much as other inside mids. He has had a far better season but taggers will usually go to Merrett due to Parish's lack of hurt factor. I also question his kicking penetration. His tackling also is behind other midfielders. Also, we can't gloss over just how bad he was in those 3 games. Other top midfielders find ways to contribute in other ways but because Parish is one of the most 'outside inside' midfielders then he is extremely easy to shut down.

 

[Tylerbombers]

question marks over his kicking and his contested work.

His kicking has improved a lot from previous years and his kicking efficiency now puts him 5th from that list and its clearly damaging since hes elite for score involvements 2nd, goal assists 3rd and score launches 2nd. His goal accuracy is 2nd only to Dusty.

Sure hes not going to win a wrestle with Petracca or Wines but hes still the #1 clearance player in the competition and middle of that group for contested possessions, I dont think it matters if hes getting it done through skill or brute strength, the end result is the same. Parish had 28 contested possessions against Geelong, you dont get those numbers if you cant win your own ball.

taggers will usually go to Merrett

This would have been true in previous years but I don't think it was true this year. Parish was tightly tagged at least 4 times and I couldnt name 1 time Merrett was tagged but I guess you only really notice tags when the player is affected.

His tackling also is behind other midfielders.

This is fair criticism, hes 9th for tackles in that group. He could improve defensively but i still think this is easily outweighed by his excellence in other areas.

 

[Ambrosia]

This is fair criticism, hes 9th for tackles in that group. He could improve defensively but i still think this is easily outweighed by his excellence in other areas.

Essendon were the best tackling side in the comp last year I’m not at all concerned with Parish’s tackling.

 

[t_94]

What are you talking about.

Dusty got so utterly smashed by Hibberd this year that Hardwick had to sub him out of the game at half time . Bit of "hamstring tightness" they called it.
Hawkins most memorable moment from this year is sticking his index finger five inches up his nose on live on TV. (Also Petty easily accounted for him in the prelim)

Our zone is too good, our midfield runs too hard, we're like the opposite of Carlton- our entire team plays defence. It's the best defence in the history of the AFL.

Yeah that backline actually sucks.

Pfft last time Saints and GCS met Dees Oliver and Petracca combined for 67 possessions both times and both collected brownlow votes in the games too. Touk and Steele aren't going to stop Trac and Oliver. They literally just murdered Bont, McRae, Libba and Treloar in the grand final.

FYI Sparrow and Viney are A grade mids. People just don't realise this because Oliver and Petracca do all the work and get the media attention.

how are the banner designs looking for next season ?

 

[danster168]

His kicking has improved a lot from previous years and his kicking efficiency now puts him 5th from that list and its clearly damaging since hes elite for score involvements 2nd, goal assists 3rd and score launches 2nd. His goal accuracy is 2nd only to Dusty.

Sure hes not going to win a wrestle with Petracca or Wines but hes still the #1 clearance player in the competition and middle of that group for contested possessions, I dont think it matters if hes getting it done through skill or brute strength, the end result is the same. Parish had 28 contested possessions against Geelong, you dont get those numbers if you cant win your own ball.



This would have been true in previous years but I don't think it was true this year. Parish was tightly tagged at least 4 times and I couldnt name 1 time Merrett was tagged but I guess you only really notice tags when the player is affected.



This is fair criticism, hes 9th for tackles in that group. He could improve defensively but i still think this is easily outweighed by his excellence in other areas.

You're reading way too much into the stats. Stats don't answer these questions. Who are the top 3 in the competition for clangers? Oliver, Petracca and Bontempelli. The best 3 players in the comp. This is why stats don't mean anything and disposal efficiency is a crock of bs.

You mention goal kicking accuracy. He's only kicked 10 goals for the season. the sample size is farrrr too small.

Then you say he is number 1 in clearances but that's actually incorrect. He is high up there, but he's not number 1.

Disposal efficiency is a BS stat as well. It often rewards players who take the easy option because they don't have tougher kicks in their skill kit bag and it also rewards those that play more on the outside.Let's have a look at all of the players that have better disposal efficiencies than Bontempelli. Nick Holman, Zach Guthrie, Sam Frost, Castagna and Jayden Hunt. LOL.

If you respond, please address the disposal efficiency example that I just used to completely destroy the DE% stat as well as the clangers example and tell me why you still use it as a way to qualify players.

Stats mean next to nothing.

 

[Crusty Demon]

We'd pump a AA team that didn't have our players in it. Zero chemistry in the AA team and 22 guys can't dominate at once (Although the 2021 GF was pretty close).

Carlton fans haven't seen their club beat Melbourne for so long they're resorting to some Space Jam sh*t where the best players in the AFL all unite against Melbourne.

Only nuffies would suggest a premiership team wouldn't compete strongly against a team made up of great players from mixed clubs. On paper these sides always look good but hardly ever perform well together. Great teams have taken years to form chemistry and play the way they do. You can't just put together any side and expect great results. It just doesn't happen like that..

 

[Trav 20]

Only nuffies would suggest a premiership team wouldn't compete strongly against a team made up of great players from mixed clubs. On paper these sides always look good but hardly ever perform well together. Great teams have taken years to form chemistry and play the way they do. You can't just put together any side and expect great results. It just doesn't happen like that..

Our backline of May, Lever, Salem, Hibberd, Petty, Bowey and Rivers would be as good or better than anything a AA could conjour up. Three AAs plus Salem AA40, who should have made it.

And what AA mixture is going to be superior to our centre square of Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, or Viney ?

As you correctly point out, chemistry, trust and game-style have never been more important and it would be difficult for a AA team to develop any of that in such a short time.

 

[Crusty Demon]

Our backline of May, Lever, Salem, Hibberd, Petty, Bowey and Rivers would be as good or better than anything a AA could conjour up. Three AAs plus Salem AA40, who should have made it.

And what AA mixture is going to be superior to our centre square of Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, or Viney ?

As you correctly point out, chemistry, trust and game-style have never been more important and it would be difficult for a AA team to develop any of that in such a short time.

It would be an interesting game. I'm not saying we would win, but the suggestions of a 20 goal flogging are ridiculous. I think just about every premiership team from their year would be a big chance of beating the AA sides from that year.

 

[Crusty Demon]

all well and good but he turned into a turd as soon as he was tagged. whereas everyone else has learned to handle them.

Agreed. Until he can consistently shake a tag, he isn't top 20. Dusty, Oliver, Bont, Trac, Danger, Wines all got tested at some point with taggers, but have proven they can overcome them. Parish needs to do the same for him to be considered upper echelon of mids. He had a good season though and I'm expecting him to get tested more in 2022, so we will see.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Our backline of May, Lever, Salem, Hibberd, Petty, Bowey and Rivers would be as good or better than anything a AA could conjour up. Three AAs plus Salem AA40, who should have made it.

And what AA mixture is going to be superior to our centre square of Gawn, Petracca, Oliver, or Viney ?

As you correctly point out, chemistry, trust and game-style have never been more important and it would be difficult for a AA team to develop any of that in such a short time.

When you match up the lines at some point u get a B or C grade player matched up with an all out gun A+ player. When this happens 3 times each line of the field it becomes an absolute blow out.

Brayshaw and Langdon vs Merrett and Walsh
Bowey, Hibberd and Petty vs Dusty, McKay and C Cameron
Brown McDonald Spargo vs Weitering Andrews and Rich

While Melbourne may have stars aplenty these match ups would get exposed by the better players to no end and end in Melbourne or any other regining premiership team getting wiped off the park.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Agreed. Until he can consistently shake a tag, he isn't top 20. Dusty, Oliver, Bont, Trac, Danger, Wines all got tested at some point with taggers, but have proven they can overcome them. Parish needs to do the same for him to be considered upper echelon of mids. He had a good season though and I'm expecting him to get tested more in 2022, so we will see.

I think both sides of the argument are correct if that makes sense. It is clear he is significantly affected by a tag and his challenge next season will be to work through that and continue to influence games now that he is receiving more attention. At the same time, in a 'best players of 2021', he still deserves to be top 20 as he only started receiving a tag later in the season after dominating for much of the year. He still finished top 10 in the Coaches award, the Brownlow, was AA and was BOG as often as anyone else so deserves his place (for season 2021 exclusively) regardless of the susceptibility he demonstrated later in the year. The indicators suggest he may have difficulty backing up top 20 next season given the effectiveness of taggers against him but time will tell.

 

[danster168]

When you match up the lines at some point u get a B or C grade player matched up with an all out gun A+ player. When this happens 3 times each line of the field it becomes an absolute blow out.

Brayshaw and Langdon vs Merrett and Walsh
Bowey, Hibberd and Petty vs Dusty, McKay and C Cameron
Brown McDonald Spargo vs Weitering Andrews and Rich

While Melbourne may have stars aplenty these match ups would get exposed by the better players to no end and end in Melbourne or any other regining premiership team getting wiped off the park.

The counter argument is that you're not going to get the best out of those players because they won't jell together.i.e.there's a ground ball and Charlie Cameron runs into Toby Green or something. Also, a bit of disrespect to Langdon in those comparisons. He is probably the best true wingman in the league. And would murder any midfielder that gets shunted to the wing.

Also Hibberd completely blankets Dustin Martin in our match ups. So much so that other teams have tried to find a guy that can perform the Hibberd role on him. So probably another bad example.

I think at the end of the day people always get seduced by the household names but the reality is that it's a team game and a system based game and it's less about 1 on 1 match ups anymore.

 

[danster168]

I think both sides of the argument are correct if that makes sense. It is clear he is significantly affected by a tag and his challenge next season will be to work through that and continue to influence games now that he is receiving more attention. At the same time, in a 'best players of 2021', he still deserves to be top 20 as he only started receiving a tag later in the season after dominating for much of the year. He still finished top 10 in the Coaches award, the Brownlow, was AA and was BOG as often as anyone else so deserves his place (for season 2021 exclusively) regardless of the susceptibility he demonstrated later in the year. The indicators suggest he may have difficulty backing up top 20 next season given the effectiveness of taggers against him but time will tell.

I really don't think anyone should be mentioning the Brownlow in terms of evaluating players. Its just a midfielders medal anyway. In the AA team he made the last spot on the interchange bench which suggests he isn't top 20 because the AA team takes into account position.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I really don't think anyone should be mentioning the Brownlow in terms of evaluating players. Its just a midfielders medal anyway. In the AA team he made the last spot on the interchange bench which suggests he isn't top 20 because the AA team takes into account position.

I don' think it suggests that at all...for exactly the reason you have stated (i.e. the 2nd best ruck might be better than the 2nd best half back flanker but you're not going to put Nic Nat on a half back flank - you'll put him on the bench).

Do you think Bailey Dale is in the top 20 of 2021 and better than Touk Miller, for example?

 

[Tylerbombers]

Who are the top 3 in the competition for clangers? Oliver, Petracca and Bontempelli. The best 3 players in the comp.

This is a good reason as to why total clangers alone is a bad way to compare players disposal. Its not a good reason to ignore all statistics.

You mention goal kicking accuracy. He's only kicked 10 goals for the season. the sample size is farrrr too small.

We are discussing his 2021 so the only relevant statistics are the ones from that year. If I was using those stats to predict his future performance then saying the sample is too small would make sense but I'm not predicting future performance. His good goal kicking accuracy is just 1 of many stats that support my position that his kicking is very good now for a mid with a high contested possession rate.

Then you say he is number 1 in clearances but that's actually incorrect. He is high up there, but he's not number 1.

Parish is equal 1st in the competition for total clearances per game alongside Liberatore and Cunnington and he wins more centre clearances then either of them.

Disposal efficiency is a BS stat as well. It often rewards players who take the easy option because they don't have tougher kicks in their skill kit bag and it also rewards those that play more on the outside.Let's have a look at all of the players that have better disposal efficiencies than Bontempelli. Nick Holman, Zach Guthrie, Sam Frost, Castagna and Jayden Hunt. LOL.

None of Holman, Guthrie, Frost, Castagna or Hunt play predominantly as inside midfielders which makes it completely pointless to compare there disposal efficiency or kicking efficiency with Bontempellis or any of the others in your list. Parish does play as an inside midfielder and has a comparable contested possession rate so the comparison is far more reasonable.

I also didnt use disposal efficiency or kicking efficiency alone precisely because some kicks are more difficult/risky/dangerous then others. This is a good argument against someone like Tom Mitchell who is not damaging with the ball relative to other top midfielders (No offense meant to Mitchell, hes an absolute superstar), the stats back this up, among midfielders he ranks 46th for inside 50s, 27th for metres gained, 51st for goal assists, 49th for score involvements and 38th for score launches despite averaging more disposals then any other player (all averages, midfielders only). Parish for comparison is 5th, 7th, 10th, 3rd and 4th.

This all reflects what I see on gameday, Parish takes high risk/high reward kicks to dangerous areas and often pulls them off resulting in scores. Not to the same extent as Bontempelli, Petracca, Martin or Merrett but certainly comparable to others on your list.

You're reading way too much into the stats. Stats don't answer these questions.

I dont think theres much point in having a discussion like this without providing stats or other evidence to back up my position, I dont think that is reading too much into the stats. The discussion would be pretty quick and uninteresting if noone used stats or votes/awards to back up there position. Something like "I think Parish is good" "I dont" "Lets agree to disagree" isnt what I would call an interesting discussion. I do not get my opinions from a stat sheet, I have my opinions from watching the game and then look at the stats to see if they support it, and a lot of the time they do especially when you look past disposals and get into the finer details.

 

[Tylerbombers]

If Melbourne played a team picked from the rest of the AFL who had no time training together I think they would win, theres a lot more to footy then just individuals. If the team picked from the rest of the AFL had reasonable time spent training together, coming up with a suitable game plan etc they would be the better side, how long that would take to get that synergy is anyones guess.

 

[La Dispute]

The counter argument is that you're not going to get the best out of those players because they won't jell together.i.e.there's a ground ball and Charlie Cameron runs into Toby Green or something. Also, a bit of disrespect to Langdon in those comparisons. He is probably the best true wingman in the league. And would murder any midfielder that gets shunted to the wing.

Also Hibberd completely blankets Dustin Martin in our match ups. So much so that other teams have tried to find a guy that can perform the Hibberd role on him. So probably another bad example.

I think at the end of the day people always get seduced by the household names but the reality is that it's a team game and a system based game and it's less about 1 on 1 match ups anymore.

Amazing this truly bizarre discussion is going on, but the Superstar team has mismatches all over the field. You've got a bunch of tall, athletic midfielders in the midfield and up forward you've got athletic key forwards player on short people. You could maybe get away with a couple, but not 10 total - and that's being generous.

A team that lost to Hawthorn, Adelaide and Collingwood is going to get creamed by a team boasting the best of the best.

 

[Trav 20]

Amazing this truly bizarre discussion is going on, but the Superstar team has mismatches all over the field. You've got a bunch of tall, athletic midfielders in the midfield and up forward you've got athletic key forwards player on short people. You could maybe get away with a couple, but not 10 total - and that's being generous.

A team that lost to Hawthorn, Adelaide and Collingwood is going to get creamed by a team boasting the best of the best.

That's far too simplistic.

Many premiership teams have anomolies throughout the H&A, especially one that was $26 to win the flag at the start of the season.

But at the pointy end of the year when they'd be playing a hypothetical AA team they went 7-0 with a percentage of 185, including a dominant finals series that saw scores from centre bounces being the most in finals history and second most ever during H&A for two consecutive games, 48 marks inside 50 to the opposition's 14, and 93 scoring shots to 43.

That's the team an AA side is coming up against.

It would depend on how long the ''superstar'' team had to bed down a game-plan and synergy.

 

[Lampers]

Amazing this truly bizarre discussion is going on, but the Superstar team has mismatches all over the field. You've got a bunch of tall, athletic midfielders in the midfield and up forward you've got athletic key forwards player on short people. You could maybe get away with a couple, but not 10 total - and that's being generous.

A team that lost to Hawthorn, Adelaide and Collingwood is going to get creamed by a team boasting the best of the best.

Well then, Carlton should’ve just stuck with Teague given a game plan and synergy driven by the coach over months of pre-season is irrelevant to a team’s performance.

Melbourne didn’t lose to Hawthorn by the way either. And when Melbourne did lose to clearly less talented teams in 2021, it was precisely because those teams played well as a team - not because of superior talent player by player.

 

[La Dispute]

That's far too simplistic.

Many premiership teams have anomolies throughout the H&A, especially one that was $26 to win the flag at the start of the season.

But at the pointy end of the year when they'd be playing a hypothetical AA team they went 7-0 with a percentage of 185, including a dominant finals series that saw scores from centre bounces being the most in finals history and second most ever during H&A for two consecutive games, 48 marks inside 50 to the opposition's 14, and 93 scoring shots to 43.

That's the team an AA side is coming up against.

It would depend on how long the ''superstar'' team had to bed down a game-plan and synergy.

What is simplistic is expecting a team filled with smaller players to get close to a team full of athletic giants who also happen to be the best players in the league.

They’d destroy the Dees if they had five minutes to gel together.