Matthew Lloyd's Top 20 players of 2021

Remove this Banner Ad

Lampers

Club Legend
May 27, 2004
1,277
2,422
Eastside
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Melbourne
You need to look at the bigger picture.

This is a one-off exhibition match of which the talent is skewed significantly towards one team, there's no salary cap, no barriers to the type of game you can play and the type of team you select.

Clubs don't attempt to play one-on-one football because they don't have the option of playing 4 elite key forwards including sitting Buddy Franklin on a flank. This would be a very different set of circumstances.

This is like when I was a kid and I used to think that because Allen Jakovich kicked 11 one time, and Darren Brennet 8, and David Schwarz 9, and Garry Lyon 10, and Darren Cuthbertson 7, and Andy Lovell 8, that if they could all get fit they would be good for 53 goals in a game one day.

The fact you think a lack of quality tall forwards is why teams don’t play one-on-one says it all. Forwards need space to operate, the opposition dictate whether they allow your forwards to be one-on-one or not - if you can’t grasp that basic concept you won’t grasp anything more complex.
 

La Dispute

La Dispute
Jul 14, 2005
16,213
24,428
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Manchester City, Boston Bruins
Please no more talk of Tom Scully clone, Sam Walsh

Walsh already has more Brownlow votes in a 3-year career than Scully had in his 10-year career.

Elite, already.

This is like when I was a kid and I used to think that because Allen Jakovich kicked 11 one time, and Darren Brennet 8, and David Schwarz 9, and Garry Lyon 10, and Darren Cuthbertson 7, and Andy Lovell 8, that if they could all get fit they would be good for 53 goals in a game one day.

The fact you think a lack of quality tall forwards is why teams don’t play one-on-one says it all. Forwards need space to operate, the opposition dictate whether they allow your forwards to be one-on-one or not - if you can’t grasp that basic concept you won’t grasp anything more complex.

(Key forwards) only need space because they are one of a couple inside 50 and they don’t typically have more than one elite forward to assist. Lynch and Riewoldt is the closest in recent times, and that is only a couple. It doesn’t even really need to be a key forward - Dangerfield, Bont and Martin would all spend time down there too.

But stack the forward line with guys who are athletic and good contested marks and it’d be a way to generate scores by isolating mismatches, eg Tom Lynch gets out one-on-one against a softie like Christian Salem.

You’d also need less inside 50’s to put together a decent tally - it’d be marking practice. Players wouldn’t be kicking bags of 10, but they’d each be copping a bag of 4 or 5, constantly rotating on Melbourne’s contingent of small defenders.
 

WalshistheGOAT

All Australian
Mar 25, 2019
944
2,109
AFL Club
Carlton
Dee's fans honestly arguing they'd take down this team because they wouldn't know how to gel? 3/4 these players could walk into any team on any given day and be close to best on no matter the game plan. It's like you believe they don't have brains to understand chop out rotations and leading in the f50...??? Most of their footy IQ's off the charts and its their ability to play with anyone and change their roles depending on match ups which makes them great.

Aliir Weitering Dale
Spargo Brown Fritsch
Rich Andrews Stewart
Neal-Bul Mcdonald Sparrow

Merrett Bont Walsh
Brayshaw Petracca Langdon
Nic Nat Wines Steele
Gawn Oliver Viney

Dusty Hawkins Cameron
Rivers Petty Salem
Greene Mckay Franklin
Hibberd May Lever


Darcy Touk Macrae Parish
Jackson Harmes Bowey Pickett


Defense - Aliir has no match up capable of manning him so as seen throughout the season he'd roam free and gobble up every poor entry for fun. Weitering and Brown would go the way of Weitering but lets say they break even. Dale v Fritsch would be interesting match up and id go the way of Fritsch, but given his playstyle Dale would be able to rebound as he pleases. Rich And Stewart would absolutely carve Neal Bullen and Sparrow to pieces, would be like Luke Hodge vs Sam Kerridge. Andrews v Mcdonald same as Weitering v Brown, Andrews realistically would destroy him but can say they break even again


Midfield - Merrett and Walsh are better runners, better kicks, better decision makers and better goal kickers than Langdon and Brayshaw. Oliver Trac and Gawn will fair well and may even break even for 1/2 a quarter but as soon as rotations happen its Parish Touk and Macrae vs Harmes Sparrow and ?? Would be a complete slaughter as soon as Oliver and Trac rotated to the bench or fwd.


Forwards
- Dusty on Rivers... Salem defending Cameron... Hibberd on Greene... If Lever leaves Buddy to roam free and intercept instead
hed kick 15. That would leave Hawkins Buddy or Mckay being manned up by Salem or Bowey if Lever is going to play loose? Mckay was also a handful for May even while clutching his injured shoulder throughout

Bench - Demolition job is an understatement if these blokes ever lined up on each other for more than 5 minutes.



Overall this would just be an absolute slaughter from beginning to end, they are fitter, more athletic and more skilled than most AFL players which is why they are AA. A game plan is generally based around the players who lack certain skills or attributes and blending them into a system so their weaknesses are covered and the good players are supported.

When all the players are good theres no need to hide anyone, simply to spread the load and do the regular team lifting things all of these players are known for. Theres also still plenty of players who would apply great defensive pressure such as Touk Macrae Walsh Steele Cameron and Greene, they just have all the weapons to go with it instead of being limited players.
 
Last edited:

Log in to remove this ad.

Dominic03

Club Legend
Oct 28, 2020
1,968
1,460
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I dont know why your bringing this up when you agree that there is more to a players disposal then kicking efficiency. Regardless you keep quoting disposal efficiency but the conversation is about kicking and Parish has a kicking efficiency of 62.2% which is better then Drew, Shiel and Treloar.
Drew 58.8%
Shiel 56.8%
Treloar 57.5%

Parish has a contested possession rate of 43.3% and averages 7.6 clearances a game. Graham and Tucker clearly play a much more outside role so there higher kicking efficiency is expected.
Graham 30.5% 1.8
Tucker 22.5% 0.8

LDU and Guthrie both have higher kicking efficiency but win less contested ball, metres gained, goal assists, score involvements, score launches and clearances. These are your relatively risk averse players like Mitchell. There also very good players.




I wouldnt say no hurt factor, Mitchells an awesome player and I probably rate him higher then most but the stats clearly support my view that he is far less damaging then Parish.



Thats fine, it was just 1 of many examples of good kicking and its not as if none of the other players ever fluked a goal. Also even if you take 10% of his goal kicking accuracy hes still ahead of Petracca, Oliver, Macrae, Wines, Miller and Merrett.




AFL website has Parish, Libba and Cunnington on 7.6 clearances a game, ill use the AFLs official stats whenever possible.



Yes and Martins 60th, Bontempelli 81st, Macrae 91st, Miller 94th, Walsh 99th, Mitchell 122nd and Merrett 169th.

Parish is equal 11th for the much more relevant contested possessions a game. 5th from your top 10 list.
Wouldn't say he's far less damaging, Parish is not an elite kick or anything, if you compare their stats when Mitchell had played some footy got into the groove and it's a big enough sample size (post bye) with him not having a pre season and the fact the gameplan changed to suit him (less defensive which meant he could actually go forward instead of kicking left and right for no reason it's pretty close.

I would say Parish and Mitchell also aren't super similar players outside the fact they are both inside mids, i mean both can find the footy but Mitchell does it in the same ways and finds it more aswell in different areas that Parish doesn't (added stuff) and considering Parish wasn't randomly chucked as a half back/back of stoppage player at random stages because the coach decided fu** it (Clarko....)
 

markm106

Norm Smith Medallist
Mar 29, 2006
9,559
8,873
Melbourne
AFL Club
Melbourne
The argument I can see from both sides. I mean the culture and synergy Melbourne have built would be hard to play against for a team that’s never actually played together. What do they say ‘a champion team beats a team of champions’. But it would be good to see, not that it’ll ever happen. It certainly wouldn’t be a one sided affair.
In regards to Melbourne losing to lowly ranked sides, happened twice and one draw. I’ve thought that those clubs will change the way they play to try and beat us. So it can throw a team off. Whereas the higher up sides will back their game in. Gawn said this in his book to.
 

Tylerbombers

Rookie
Oct 5, 2013
38
33
AFL Club
Essendon
if you compare their stats when Mitchell had played some footy got into the groove and it's a big enough sample size (post bye) with him not having a pre season and the fact the gameplan changed to suit him (less defensive which meant he could actually go forward instead of kicking left and right for no reason it's pretty close.

If you only use post bye data your not really having a conversation about who the best players were in 2021. Ive presented all the stats backing up Parish being more damaging then Mitchell earlier in the thread.
 

Dominic03

Club Legend
Oct 28, 2020
1,968
1,460
AFL Club
Hawthorn
If you only use post bye data your not really having a conversation about who the best players were in 2021. Ive presented all the stats backing up Parish being more damaging then Mitchell earlier in the thread.
Must've missed it, but my point was i use post bye as it was when he played the role he played in 2018, 2017 and everytime he's ever played a good game. Before that he was moved around so much (still good just not as good).
 

Tylerbombers

Rookie
Oct 5, 2013
38
33
AFL Club
Essendon
Must've missed it, but my point was i use post bye as it was when he played the role he played in 2018, 2017 and everytime he's ever played a good game. Before that he was moved around so much (still good just not as good).

Thats great, im sure he was excellent post bye.
 

danster168

Club Legend
Apr 29, 2016
2,057
2,080
AFL Club
Melbourne
But look at the best mids in the comp outside of Dees.

You'd have Walsh on a wing rotating inside with Miller on the other

Picking from Macrae, Bont, Steele, Wines, Mitchell, Parish, Merrett as midfielders against Petracca, Oliver (good) and players like Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes.

And others like Dusty who'd rotate from a half forward flank.

And that's just the start of it.

It's like that all over the ground.

Only place where it wouldn't is maybe the ruck but even then you could have two rucks and double team gawn and Jackson wouldn't get close.

Dude, you said Jake Bowey would go on Tom Lynch. You lost all credit right there and then.

Also, Langdon is the best wingman in the league so I don't think anyone in the league could match him except for Sam Walsh.

Also give the little man Jake bowey some respect. He locked down Weightman in the GF who was probably awarded the Leon Davis medalist for the worst player in a GF.

I do see what you're saying but if you look at the dogs midfield Bont, Macrae, Treloar, libba, Dunkley and Bailey Smith. That's a really good midfield. And we smashed them.
 

danster168

Club Legend
Apr 29, 2016
2,057
2,080
AFL Club
Melbourne
Thats fine, it was just 1 of many examples of good kicking and its not as if none of the other players ever fluked a goal. Also even if you take 10% of his goal kicking accuracy hes still ahead of Petracca, Oliver, Macrae, Wines, Miller and Merrett.

Picture this, it's grand final day, you're down by 3 points with 30 seconds to go, the ball shoots out to one of the above players who do you go with? You're gonna say Parish because of his higher goal kicking accuracy? LOL. Please, spare me the stats. Parish would be last in this list. Petracca is clutch on the big stage, Merrett is a far better kick, then I'd back Touk Miller, then Macrae who has been a match winner all through his career including under 18's and then Oliver who has now improved his kicking so much and is probably the best player in the game. He also has big game credits in the bank. Parish comes last. Maybe equal last with Wines at best.
 

Dominic03

Club Legend
Oct 28, 2020
1,968
1,460
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Dude, you said Jake Bowey would go on Tom Lynch. You lost all credit right there and then.

Also, Langdon is the best wingman in the league so I don't think anyone in the league could match him except for Sam Walsh.

Also give the little man Jake bowey some respect. He locked down Weightman in the GF who was probably awarded the Leon Davis medalist for the worst player in a GF.

I do see what you're saying but if you look at the dogs midfield Bont, Macrae, Treloar, libba, Dunkley and Bailey Smith. That's a really good midfield. And we smashed them.
I didn't no, that was the other bloke haha

Langdon isn't close to the best winger bud xx
 

WalshistheGOAT

All Australian
Mar 25, 2019
944
2,109
AFL Club
Carlton
Dude, you said Jake Bowey would go on Tom Lynch. You lost all credit right there and then.

Also, Langdon is the best wingman in the league so I don't think anyone in the league could match him except for Sam Walsh.

Also give the little man Jake bowey some respect. He locked down Weightman in the GF who was probably awarded the Leon Davis medalist for the worst player in a GF.

I do see what you're saying but if you look at the dogs midfield Bont, Macrae, Treloar, libba, Dunkley and Bailey Smith. That's a really good midfield. And we smashed them.
I'm sorry but Ed Langdon is not the best wingman in the league. Perhaps one of the best runners but give me Mccluggage, Amon Seedsman or Whitfield any day (although under choco he made a lot of improvements to his kicking)

Bowey covering Weightman is a completely different ball game than covering Dusty or Toby Greene.

The midfield of the dogs has always been an offensive juggernaut who don't play for their team-mates or collectively work defensively. Been saying it for years now that they have too many blokes not willing to lay blocks or put their body on the line. When you replace blokes like Smith and Hunter with Touk Miller and Walsh you aren't going to get the same selfish footballers that still play a part in the dogs midfield rotations. Bont Dunkley and Macrae certainly are fantastic team players but the others can be susceptible to ball hunting when they should be laying a block or tackle.

AA team would blow the Dee's 2nd rotation off the field. Viney Sparrow and Brayshaw vs Macrae Steele and Parish it wouldn't even be a contest
 

danster168

Club Legend
Apr 29, 2016
2,057
2,080
AFL Club
Melbourne
I didn't no, that was the other bloke haha

Langdon isn't close to the best winger bud xx
Err, yes he is. comfortably. I'd accept Amon as the only other true winger who would come close. I'd love for you to name which other genuine wingers would be better.

Langdon beat Steven May in our best and fairest so those that watch our games closely know Langdons worth. He also almost beat Lever too. He finished 6th overall which is a great effort considering we have 3 guys (Oliver, Petracca and Gawn) that would finish top 3 at all other clubs.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Dominic03

Club Legend
Oct 28, 2020
1,968
1,460
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Err, yes he is. comfortably. I'd accept Amon as the only other true winger who would come close. I'd love for you to name which other genuine wingers would be better.

Langdon beat Steven May in our best and fairest so those that watch our games closely know Langdons worth. He also almost beat Lever too. He finished 6th overall which is a great effort considering we have 3 guys (Oliver, Petracca and Gawn) that would finish top 3 at all other clubs.
Langdon is one of the best runners but there's so many betters like Amon, Clug, Seedsman etc.
 

danster168

Club Legend
Apr 29, 2016
2,057
2,080
AFL Club
Melbourne
I'm sorry but Ed Langdon is not the best wingman in the league. Perhaps one of the best runners but give me Mccluggage, Amon Seedsman or Whitfield any day (although under choco he made a lot of improvements to his kicking)

Bowey covering Weightman is a completely different ball game than covering Dusty or Toby Greene.

The midfield of the dogs has always been an offensive juggernaut who don't play for their team-mates or collectively work defensively. Been saying it for years now that they have too many blokes not willing to lay blocks or put their body on the line. When you replace blokes like Smith and Hunter with Touk Miller and Walsh you aren't going to get the same selfish footballers that still play a part in the dogs midfield rotations. Bont Dunkley and Macrae certainly are fantastic team players but the others can be susceptible to ball hunting when they should be laying a block or tackle.

AA team would blow the Dee's 2nd rotation off the field. Viney Sparrow and Brayshaw vs Macrae Steele and Parish it wouldn't even be a contest

All well and good but Whitfield doesn't play wing for the entirety of the match. He plays the majority in the back half because they need his dash. He also takes some kick outs. Seedsman no. Mccluggage maybe. Amon maybe.

The thing you're forgetting is that you list the AA guns but they're all the marquee players in their team. If you put them all in the same team, many of them will have to take a back seat. You can't have too many alpha dogs in the same team. How well is it gonna go if you have Toby Greene inside 50m screaming for the ball to be kicked to him in a 1 on 1 marking contest only for Dusty to be screaming for it in the other pocket.

Also, you're forgetting about defence. If Martin and Toby Greene forward, and Tom Lynch who the hell is gonna chase Lever, Salem, Rivers out of defence? Who! Who is going to spend 2 hours solely applying forward pressure the way Spargo, Pickett and Neale-Bullen do for us? Please name the names. Because all I can see is a bunch of guys who will have their hands on their hips.

If you compare it to the NBA, it's like comparing the old school Spurs Bball playing and beating a team which has more guns on paper.
 

danster168

Club Legend
Apr 29, 2016
2,057
2,080
AFL Club
Melbourne
Langdon is one of the best runners but there's so many betters like Amon, Clug, Seedsman etc.

Maybe Amon. no to seedsman. You've listed 3. If he is nowhere near it, then I'd expect you to list at least 10. Otherwise, I'll accept that you rate him as the 4th best winger. He is better than all of those guys though except maybe Amon. Mccluggage I think is a tad overrated. He is quite inconsistent within a season. he has amazing months but he can't string together 20 games.
 

Dominic03

Club Legend
Oct 28, 2020
1,968
1,460
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Maybe Amon. no to seedsman. You've listed 3. If he is nowhere near it, then I'd expect you to list at least 10. Otherwise, I'll accept that you rate him as the 4th best winger. He is better than all of those guys though except maybe Amon. Mccluggage I think is a tad overrated. He is quite inconsistent within a season. he has amazing months but he can't string together 20 games.
Lol Clug easily better and same with Seeds. Whitfield is also better, hell even Isaac Smith is still better depends who you consider a wing aswell.
 

aussierulesrules

Hall of Famer
Jan 7, 2011
31,146
60,327
Heaven. I mean Victoria.
AFL Club
St Kilda
I’m struggling to see any planet on which a single AFL team would beat a team that could contain all of the following- especially assuming they’re at full fitness:

Dusty
Bont
Danger
Fyfe
Stringer
Buddy (imagine the mismatches those 6 could create!)
Greene
McKay
Hawkins
Stewart
Nic Nat
Steele
Walsh
Kelly (J)
Whitfield
Haynes
Andrews
Moore
Etc.
 

aussierulesrules

Hall of Famer
Jan 7, 2011
31,146
60,327
Heaven. I mean Victoria.
AFL Club
St Kilda
All well and good but Whitfield doesn't play wing for the entirety of the match. He plays the majority in the back half because they need his dash. He also takes some kick outs. Seedsman no. Mccluggage maybe. Amon maybe.

The thing you're forgetting is that you list the AA guns but they're all the marquee players in their team. If you put them all in the same team, many of them will have to take a back seat. You can't have too many alpha dogs in the same team. How well is it gonna go if you have Toby Greene inside 50m screaming for the ball to be kicked to him in a 1 on 1 marking contest only for Dusty to be screaming for it in the other pocket.

Also, you're forgetting about defence. If Martin and Toby Greene forward, and Tom Lynch who the hell is gonna chase Lever, Salem, Rivers out of defence? Who! Who is going to spend 2 hours solely applying forward pressure the way Spargo, Pickett and Neale-Bullen do for us? Please name the names. Because all I can see is a bunch of guys who will have their hands on their hips.

If you compare it to the NBA, it's like comparing the old school Spurs Bball playing and beating a team which has more guns on paper.
So you’re telling me that if you were given the option of replacing the likes of Spargo, Neal-Bullen, Rivers and co with the likes of fully fit Dusty, Bont, Buddy, Danger, Fyfe, Greene etc that you’d be like “nah, I’m good thanks, I’ll stick with these average role players who aren’t fit to tie those guys bootlaces”?

Or since you brought up the NBA, if you were given the option of replacing the worst player in the champion team with Michael Jordan, you’d be like “nah, I’m going to keep this role player over the guy who could score 50 points by himself, because he’s good at his role of waving his arms around and distracting the other team’s shooters”?
 
Last edited:

danster168

Club Legend
Apr 29, 2016
2,057
2,080
AFL Club
Melbourne
Lol Clug easily better and same with Seeds. Whitfield is also better, hell even Isaac Smith is still better depends who you consider a wing aswell.

LOL. Isaac smith. Langdon is a better wing than everyone you listed. Isaac smith, please.
 

danster168

Club Legend
Apr 29, 2016
2,057
2,080
AFL Club
Melbourne
I’m struggling to see any planet on which a single AFL team would beat a team that could contain all of the following- especially assuming they’re at full fitness:

Dusty
Bont
Danger
Fyfe
Stringer
Buddy (imagine the mismatches those 6 could create!)
Greene
McKay
Hawkins
Stewart
Nic Nat
Steele
Walsh
Kelly (J)
Whitfield
Haynes
Andrews
Moore
Etc.

Whose applying the forward pressure with Mckay, Hawkins, Dusty, Toby Greene, Stringer and Buddy up forward? LOL. we could walk out of that forward line without getting a hand laid on us. You need to think about these things other than just listing players that are household names. This is EXACTLY why the dees would beat this team.
 

danster168

Club Legend
Apr 29, 2016
2,057
2,080
AFL Club
Melbourne
So you’re telling me that if you were given the option of replacing the likes of Spargo, Neal-Bullen, Rivers and co with the likes of fully fit Dusty, Bont, Buddy, Danger, Fyfe, Greene etc that you’d be like “nah, I’m good thanks, I’ll stick with these average role players who aren’t fit to tie those guys bootlaces”?

Or since you brought up the NBA, if you were given the option of replacing the worst player in the champion team with Michael Jordan, you’d be like “nah, I’m going to keep this role player over the guy who could score 50 points by himself, because he’s good at his role of waving his arms around and distracting the other team’s shooters”?

Yeah I'd take those players if it was pre-season and they were given 6 months to jell with the team but if we're talking about a once off game and the A-listers all come together for a once off game against the dees, they're going to have no chemistry and it would be one-sided.

And to answer your question, yes. You'd be crazy to chuck an MJ or a Kobe into a team oriented offence. These guys are ball heavy and a completely black hole on offence. It's no surprise that teams like Toronto, Dallas mavs, Spurs have won championships against teams that had more superstar power on paper.
 
Last edited:

NorthcoteDee

Debutant
May 9, 2021
69
155
AFL Club
Melbourne
LOL. Isaac smith. Langdon is a better wing than everyone you listed. Isaac smith, please.
----------------------------------------------------

Mr Smirky is still a good player, but well past his best.

Ed was in AA contention until he suffered concussion mid season. Still an excellent player, but not as good as pre-concussion. He's a ripper .... ok, I admit it ... man crush!!
 
Last edited:

danster168

Club Legend
Apr 29, 2016
2,057
2,080
AFL Club
Melbourne
----------------------------------------------------

Mr Smirky is still a good player, but well passed his best.

Ed was in AA contention until he suffered concussion mid season. Still an excellent player, but not as good as pre-concussion. He's a ripper .... ok, I admit it ... man crush!!

lol. yeah, the smugness coming from dogs fans about how elite their midfield was because they completely underrated just how good guys like Langdon, Brayshaw and Neale-Bullen can be. A lesson learnt.
 

WalshistheGOAT

All Australian
Mar 25, 2019
944
2,109
AFL Club
Carlton
LOL. Isaac smith. Langdon is a better wing than everyone you listed. Isaac smith, please.
Are there any stats that show Langdon to be the best wing in the comp? He is miles behind close to half a dozen wingman. Seedsman, Whitfield Mcclug, Amon, Lukosious, Smith, J Kelly (he's split 50 50 inside out though)

All of these players get more of the ball, use it better, are better kicks and hit the scoreboard more often. I don't see any way Dee's fans can argue this one and just goes to show how delusional their opinion is on their prospects vs the AA 22 if they think Langdon is even close to the same class as these guys
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Remove this Banner Ad