Matthew Lloyd's Top 20 players of 2021

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bjwilliams

All Australian
Apr 6, 2015
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'Accumulator' is such a nothing term. Always gets applied to a player who gets a stack of the ball as a subtle means of discrediting them. The same definition could be applied to Oliver.

Mitchell gets the Hawks going through constantly being involved in the play and setting his teammates into positions where they can impact. That is the value of having the ball 30+ times a game.
While I generally agree that people using 'accumulators' as a negative term is stupid, your added part saying this could be used to describe Oliver is a pretty bad take. Generally people are talking about uncontested, off the back of the pack type players when discussing 'accumulators'. And there's a pretty clear difference between Clayton Oliver and Tom Mitchell.

1641872453188.png
 

Tylerbombers

Rookie
Oct 5, 2013
33
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AFL Club
Essendon
While I generally agree that people using 'accumulators' as a negative term is stupid, your added part saying this could be used to describe Oliver is a pretty bad take. Generally people are talking about uncontested, off the back of the pack type players when discussing 'accumulators'. And there's a pretty clear difference between Clayton Oliver and Tom Mitchell.

View attachment 1309069

Theres also a big difference in there ball use and Oliver is better defensively. Oliver has more inside 50s, metres gained, goal assists, score involvements, score launches, tackles and pressure acts.
 

Dominic03

Club Legend
Oct 28, 2020
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While I generally agree that people using 'accumulators' as a negative term is stupid, your added part saying this could be used to describe Oliver is a pretty bad take. Generally people are talking about uncontested, off the back of the pack type players when discussing 'accumulators'. And there's a pretty clear difference between Clayton Oliver and Tom Mitchell.

View attachment 1309069
It’s hard because Mitchell wasn’t playing the same role all year. Post bye the stats are a lot closer and similar for this reason.
 

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Trav 20

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 5, 2004
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Theres also a big difference in there ball use and Oliver is better defensively. Oliver has more inside 50s, metres gained, goal assists, score involvements, score launches, tackles and pressure acts.
Not to mention Oliver is coming off the highest contested possessions in a season since they've been keeping records, i.e. the opposite of an "accumulator".
 

Guardian Hawk

Premiership Player
Oct 16, 2003
3,906
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Murrumbeena
AFL Club
Hawthorn
[/QUOTE]
While I generally agree that people using 'accumulators' as a negative term is stupid, your added part saying this could be used to describe Oliver is a pretty bad take. Generally people are talking about uncontested, off the back of the pack type players when discussing 'accumulators'. And there's a pretty clear difference between Clayton Oliver and Tom Mitchell.

View attachment 1309069
Theres also a big difference in there ball use and Oliver is better defensively. Oliver has more inside 50s, metres gained, goal assists, score involvements, score launches, tackles and pressure acts.
Not to mention Oliver is coming off the highest contested possessions in a season since they've been keeping records, i.e. the opposite of an "accumulator".

I think Oliver is the best player in the comp so agree the term does not apply whatsoever.

The problem with this analysis is that the accumulator tag has been applied to Mitchell throughout his career. Yet, he is top 12 all time for contested possession average AND tackle average!. He is above the likes of Chris Judd, Christian Petracca and others who no one describes as accumulators and is top 5 or 10 in those stats across several seasons. People's issue is that he also spreads from the contest better than anyone, racking up uncontested ball as well. It's a ridiculous situation where he would likely be rated higher of he didn't work so hard for the 'extra' uncontested possessions he earns on top!
 

Trav 20

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 5, 2004
9,396
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The problem with this analysis is that the accumulator tag has been applied to Mitchell throughout his career. Yet, he is top 12 all time for contested possession average AND tackle average!. He is above the likes of Chris Judd, Christian Petracca and others who no one describes as accumulators and is top 5 or 10 in those stats across several seasons. People's issue is that he also spreads from the contest better than anyone, racking up uncontested ball as well. It's a ridiculous situation where he would likely be rated higher of he didn't work so hard for the 'extra' uncontested possessions he earns on top!
[/QUOTE]
Fair.

He seems to often be close to the contest so is always there to receive and at the same time he wins contested footy. When I look at our blokes they never seem to be waiting for that short receive. It may be a game-style thing, but I notice our blokes don't get these quick easy chains around the contest. When they get it they're trying to burst through at speed and give off - hand or foot. There's not many of these quick chains of possessions that I notice with some other high possession mids.

But I've always though that finding the footy is a skill in itself.
 

WalshistheGOAT

All Australian
Mar 25, 2019
920
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AFL Club
Carlton
Tom Mitchell would have to be one of the lowest impact per possession player in the history of the game. Supercoach dream but I can definitely see why he was left our of Lloyd's top 20.

Simply put he just hangs out the back of contests too often to receive short handballs. Never seems to gather or distribute the ball in dangerous areas.
 

Dominic03

Club Legend
Oct 28, 2020
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The problem with this analysis is that the accumulator tag has been applied to Mitchell throughout his career. Yet, he is top 12 all time for contested possession average AND tackle average!. He is above the likes of Chris Judd, Christian Petracca and others who no one describes as accumulators and is top 5 or 10 in those stats across several seasons. People's issue is that he also spreads from the contest better than anyone, racking up uncontested ball as well. It's a ridiculous situation where he would likely be rated higher of he didn't work so hard for the 'extra' uncontested possessions he earns on top!

Fair.

He seems to often be close to the contest so is always there to receive and at the same time he wins contested footy. When I look at our blokes they never seem to be waiting for that short receive. It may be a game-style thing, but I notice our blokes don't get these quick easy chains around the contest. When they get it they're trying to burst through at speed and give off - hand or foot. There's not many of these quick chains of possessions that I notice with some other high possession mids.

But I've always though that finding the footy is a skill in itself.
If you can find the footy as much as Titch does or players like him it's genuinely as hard as anything else, he's a winger and inside mid in one, runs all day long and works his ass off both ways.

He can get under the pack and dish it out, he can get the ball and use it wisely (taking his time before disposing of it, smart footballer). While working his ass off to get it again to propel forward or to get it from half back to help release the pressure. Not to mention his tackling is very good.
 

Dominic03

Club Legend
Oct 28, 2020
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Tom Mitchell would have to be one of the lowest impact per possession player in the history of the game. Supercoach dream but I can definitely see why he was left our of Lloyd's top 20.

Simply put he just hangs out the back of contests too often to receive short handballs. Never seems to gather or distribute the ball in dangerous areas.
Clearly you watched none of his games post bye with the gamestyle change from Clarko? or like yknow, his seasons before his broken leg.

Even pre bye 2021, with no pre season, game 1 against Essendon he was arguably BOG.

You just don't watch him hard enough.
 

WalshistheGOAT

All Australian
Mar 25, 2019
920
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Carlton
Clearly you watched none of his games post bye with the gamestyle change from Clarko? or like yknow, his seasons before his broken leg.

Even pre bye 2021, with no pre season, game 1 against Essendon he was arguably BOG.

You just don't watch him hard enough.
Hard to notice him when he's crabbing out the back of a pack doing peanuts with ball in hand. Only place you notice him since his injury is the stat sheet.

2018 he became a more damaging player but since then he's reverted to his previous crab behaviour
 

Dominic03

Club Legend
Oct 28, 2020
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Hard to notice him when he's crabbing out the back of a pack doing peanuts with ball in hand. Only place you notice him since his injury is the stat sheet.

2018 he became a more damaging player but since then he's reverted to his previous crab behaviour
How i explained Mitchell only a few posts ago was, if you missed it.

An inside mid who is also a winger with how he runs.

He can go under the pack and bully the ball out to the runners, or he can win it inside again and have enough time and space to pick the right option, whether by foot or by hand.

He can then spread forward for the ball again, get involved in scoring chains and get at the end of it while also being a short target around the 40-50m mark.

He can also spread to the wings and half back flanks to find the footy and release pressure.

The worst game i saw him play would've been his North game, where Clarko put Worpel/Jaeger as deep forwards and Titch was playing everywhere, well everywhere but as his best role as an inside mid.
 

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Dominic03

Club Legend
Oct 28, 2020
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And Stringer was arguably the best player in the comp post bye.. I'll take Clarry Trac Bont Walsh Wines and a dozen others over Mitchell.

Players have reputations for a reason and Mitchell's is that of a crab for a reason.
Mate..

Stringer was awesome no doubt but Mitchell had 20 votes post bye, pretty sure that was the best while he was also pretty good under a sh*t gameplan pre bye.

He's shown he's deadset elite and has been the best in the comp, was one of the best in 2017, 2018 he was the best by a fair way and he was pretty decent in his return in 2020.

People forget he hasn't had a full preseason since 2018, 2022 will be the first time since.


Walsh? i mean good kid, had a ripper year but you can't say him and include him with Clarry, Trac, Bont and Wines (brownlow).

Titch was arguably BOG in R1 and didn't get a vote (Draper LOL) he was that game away from being top 5 in the brownlow.

His averages post bye whether it was disposals, contested possies, clearances, tackles, goals or scoring involvements he was elite.
 

WalshistheGOAT

All Australian
Mar 25, 2019
920
2,042
AFL Club
Carlton
Mate..

Stringer was awesome no doubt but Mitchell had 20 votes post bye, pretty sure that was the best while he was also pretty good under a sh*t gameplan pre bye.

He's shown he's deadset elite and has been the best in the comp, was one of the best in 2017, 2018 he was the best by a fair way and he was pretty decent in his return in 2020.

People forget he hasn't had a full preseason since 2018, 2022 will be the first time since.


Walsh? i mean good kid, had a ripper year but you can't say him and include him with Clarry, Trac, Bont and Wines (brownlow).

Titch was arguably BOG in R1 and didn't get a vote (Draper LOL) he was that game away from being top 5 in the brownlow.

His averages post bye whether it was disposals, contested possies, clearances, tackles, goals or scoring involvements he was elite.
 

Goomba1973

Team Captain
Aug 13, 2018
502
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In reverse order:

20. Steven may
19. Naitanui
18. Stringer
17. Tom Stewart
16. Lever
15. Boak
14. Aliir Aliir
13. Hawkins
12. Harry Mckay
11. Zac Merrett
10. Macrae
9. Parish
8. Sam Walsh
7. Touk Miller
6. Gawn
5. Petracca
4. Jack Steele
3. Wines
2. Bontempelli
1. Oliver

As a dees fan, I'm happy that Oliver gets the recognition he deserves as the best player in the game. A lot of neutrals put Petracca ahead of Oliver but that's simply because they don't watch the dees games as closely.

Other than that, I don't disagree with it too much.

But what I do disagree with is: Wines at 3 is too high. He probably isn't a top 10 player in my eyes. Jack Steele at 4 is also too high for my liking but I can live with it. Parish at 9 is far too high. He is one of the easiest players to tag in the afl and basically gets shut down as soon as an opposition coach decides to shut him down and for that reason he hasn't earned the right to be ahead of Merrett and Macrae who cop tags far more often and handle it consistently. I wouldn't have Parish in my top 20 at all as I'd prefer guys like Toby Greene and Charlie Cameron. Guys that have hurt factor. Even Rory Laird and Fritsch could've been considered.

Toby Greene needs to be in the side. He played 18 games. That's enough to get him in.

Rory Laird is criminally underrated .....
 

Guardian Hawk

Premiership Player
Oct 16, 2003
3,906
5,798
Murrumbeena
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Fair.

He seems to often be close to the contest so is always there to receive and at the same time he wins contested footy. When I look at our blokes they never seem to be waiting for that short receive. It may be a game-style thing, but I notice our blokes don't get these quick easy chains around the contest. When they get it they're trying to burst through at speed and give off - hand or foot. There's not many of these quick chains of possessions that I notice with some other high possession mids.

But I've always though that finding the footy is a skill in itself.

Clarkson has always utilised a 'slower' approach than other coaches/clubs. Even in our glory years with quality key forwards and contested ball winners everywhere, we tended toward using short foot skills (keepings off) to pick apart opposition rather than a 'run and gun' approach. Clarkson was always keen to maintain structures and avoid 'interceptors' and unnecessary turnovers so would often employ 'possession chains' rather than 'blasting it forward'. Our current personnel do not match this style well anymore and so Clarko finally changed it mid year to good effect, with Mitchell's possession balance changing somewhat as a result.

With that said, it is not as though Mitchell does 1-2's and cheapies anymore than many other mids who do not receive the same criticism. Certianly no more so than Gary Ablett Jnr for example, who is universally highly regarded (rightfully) and is never described in those terms despite being more prone it than most.
 

Trav 20

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 5, 2004
9,396
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Melbourne
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With that said, it is not as though Mitchell does 1-2's and cheapies anymore than many other mids who do not receive the same criticism. Certianly no more so than Gary Ablett Jnr for example, who is universally highly regarded (rightfully) and is never described in those terms despite being more prone it than most.
His last few years were a bit of a joke.
 

Tylerbombers

Rookie
Oct 5, 2013
33
27
AFL Club
Essendon
Certianly no more so than Gary Ablett Jnr for example, who is universally highly regarded (rightfully) and is never described in those terms despite being more prone it than most.

1641962217918.png


Prime Ablett compared to 2021 Mitchell is a joke. Goals, tackles, inside 50s, goal assists, contested possessions and clearances all heavily favor Ablett and Ablett did this consistently from 2009 to 2014 when he was injured. Unfortunately some stats like score involvements and metres gained werent recorded then for comparison but we can use a later year to compare them too.

1641962776633.png

In 2017 a much older and much worse Ablett was fit again and returned to the midfield and still performs better then Mitchell in all the relevant areas I previously mentioned but now we get to see how a much older and much worse Ablett performs in score involvements and metres gained as well and he performs way better then Mitchell in both. He was 4th for score involvements that year.

Comparing Mitchell and Ablett and calling them both accumulators is a joke, Ablett was one of the most damaging players in the AFL and one of the best contested players as well, not just when he played but of all time.
 

Dominic03

Club Legend
Oct 28, 2020
1,847
1,353
AFL Club
Hawthorn
View attachment 1309682

Prime Ablett compared to 2021 Mitchell is a joke. Goals, tackles, inside 50s, goal assists, contested possessions and clearances all heavily favor Ablett and Ablett did this consistently from 2009 to 2014 when he was injured. Unfortunately some stats like score involvements and metres gained werent recorded then for comparison but we can use a later year to compare them too.

View attachment 1309685
In 2017 a much older and much worse Ablett was fit again and returned to the midfield and still performs better then Mitchell in all the relevant areas I previously mentioned but now we get to see how a much older and much worse Ablett performs in score involvements and metres gained as well and he performs way better then Mitchell in both. He was 4th for score involvements that year.

Comparing Mitchell and Ablett and calling them both accumulators is a joke, Ablett was one of the most damaging players in the AFL and one of the best contested players as well, not just when he played but of all time.
Comparing Mitchell's 2021 season to Abletts prime is beyond a joke. 2018 bud.

2021 he didn't even play full time in the role he played post bye as a mid where he dominated.
 

Tylerbombers

Rookie
Oct 5, 2013
33
27
AFL Club
Essendon
Comparing Mitchell's 2021 season to Abletts prime is beyond a joke. 2018 bud.

2021 he didn't even play full time in the role he played post bye as a mid where he dominated.

Comparing Ablett to Mitchell is a joke no matter what and implying that Ablett was just an accumulator too is ridiculous. Ablett was one of the best contested players and one of the most damaging players in the league for years.
 

Dominic03

Club Legend
Oct 28, 2020
1,847
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AFL Club
Hawthorn
Comparing Ablett to Mitchell is a joke no matter what and implying that Ablett was just an accumulator too is ridiculous. Ablett was one of the best contested players and one of the most damaging players in the league for years.
At Mitchells best his contested game is elite, it was 16 something in 2018.
 

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