Matthew Lloyd's Top 20 players of 2021

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Dominic03

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Even in Mitchells best year, which I agree was fantastic, he doesnt measure up to Ablett.
Mitchell played a full season + finals.
Ablett got injured.

Hard to compare with less games as it's easier to hold a better average with less games but..

Disposals
35.3 to 32.1
Marks
5 to 2.
Goals
0.5 to 1.6
Tackles
6.3 to 6.1
Clearances
8 to 7.9
Metres Gained
450 to i'd suspect around 450-500. Pretty similar.
Contested Possies
16.2 to 17.5
Uncontested
19 to 14.
GA
0.5 to 1.5
Score Involvements
6.2 to i suspect around 7-8.
Bounces
1.2 to 0.7
Inside 50s
5 to 5.

Anyway main stats wise they are both very similar, Ablett has shown to be able to kick more goals and be better forward of centre.

Titch as i said above played all games + finals.
Ablett played 15 and got injured, easier to hold a better average in statistics with less games.

Ablett was freakish, this is one of the best single seasons by a player ever.

And the point from old mate above was later in Abletts career (atleast what i read) he said that was when he started to get worse with one twos.

Think it was one of his 50 disposal games where they got absolutely smashed where he had a one two basically every possession.
 

Dominic03

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Comparing Ablett to Mitchell is a joke no matter what and implying that Ablett was just an accumulator too is ridiculous. Ablett was one of the best contested players and one of the most damaging players in the league for years.
Ablett and Mitchell aren't just accumulators. Mitchell in 2018 particularly was an elite contested player and at his best is.
 

Tylerbombers

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Mitchell played a full season + finals.
Ablett got injured.

Hard to compare with less games as it's easier to hold a better average with less games but..

Disposals
35.3 to 32.1
Marks
5 to 2.
Goals
0.5 to 1.6
Tackles
6.3 to 6.1
Clearances
8 to 7.9
Metres Gained
450 to i'd suspect around 450-500. Pretty similar.
Contested Possies
16.2 to 17.5
Uncontested
19 to 14.
GA
0.5 to 1.5
Score Involvements
6.2 to i suspect around 7-8.
Bounces
1.2 to 0.7
Inside 50s
5 to 5.

Anyway main stats wise they are both very similar, Ablett has shown to be able to kick more goals and be better forward of centre.

Titch as i said above played all games + finals.
Ablett played 15 and got injured, easier to hold a better average in statistics with less games.

Ablett was freakish, this is one of the best single seasons by a player ever.

And the point from old mate above was later in Abletts career (atleast what i read) he said that was when he started to get worse with one twos.

Think it was one of his 50 disposal games where they got absolutely smashed where he had a one two basically every possession.

Yes Mitchells contested game in 2018 was elite, but Ablett was always far more damaging, 1.6 goals a game from the midfield is insane and way more goal assists as well. In 2021 Mitchell did not have the contested game he had in 2018 and he was less damaging with ball in hand too, that is why hes derided as an accumulator. If that changes in 2022 I will give him credit for it just like I give him a lot of credit for his 2018 season.
 

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Guardian Hawk

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Prime Ablett compared to 2021 Mitchell is a joke. Goals, tackles, inside 50s, goal assists, contested possessions and clearances all heavily favor Ablett and Ablett did this consistently from 2009 to 2014 when he was injured. Unfortunately some stats like score involvements and metres gained werent recorded then for comparison but we can use a later year to compare them too.

View attachment 1309685
In 2017 a much older and much worse Ablett was fit again and returned to the midfield and still performs better then Mitchell in all the relevant areas I previously mentioned but now we get to see how a much older and much worse Ablett performs in score involvements and metres gained as well and he performs way better then Mitchell in both. He was 4th for score involvements that year.

Comparing Mitchell and Ablett and calling them both accumulators is a joke, Ablett was one of the most damaging players in the AFL and one of the best contested players as well, not just when he played but of all time.

Oh goodness me - is this a serious post?

Way to miss the point.

I did not claim Mitchell was close to Ablett as a player in any way. I have Ablett Jnr as the best mid in the last 20 years. I also did not claim that Ablett was an 'accumulator' - in fact, it is clear I am trying to highlight the opposite.

My issue is that Mitchell is often lazily described as an "uncontested, not damaging, not defensive accumulator" (including in this thread) despite the fact that he is in the best 12 players of all time for contested possession averages and tackle averages. Specifically, I was responding to someone speaking of getting possessions "in chains" through seeking "short gives".

Ablett, whilst he was winning MVP's, B&F's and was rightfully considered the best player in the comp, often got 1-2's and looked for little gives from teammates and got possessions in chains. Do people downgrade Ablett for it? Of course not - nor should they.

But Ablett was only an example - fact is, many top line midfielders get a handful of cheaper possessions and 1-2's, etc.

However, it is really only Mitchell that is heavily criticised for it, primarily because he is the biggest ball winner the game has seen. Any proper analysis, however, demonstrates that Mitchell is regularly in the top 5-10 players in the comp for contested possessions, tackles, clearances and when his team is not terrible, score involvements, etc (these don't necessarily apply to 2021 but these criticisms have dogged Mitchell's entire career). He clearly does win the hard ball, is defensive (funnily enough, others criticise him being too defensive) and can be damaging but is ridiculed for the uncontested footy he wins on top in a way that other players are not - simply because they are getting it 30 times instead of 40 or 50 times.
 

Tylerbombers

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Oh goodness me - is this a serious post?

Way to miss the point.

I did not claim Mitchell was close to Ablett as a player in any way. I have Ablett Jnr as the best mid in the last 20 years. I also did not claim that Ablett was an 'accumulator' - in fact, it is clear I am trying to highlight the opposite.

My issue is that Mitchell is often lazily described as an "uncontested, not damaging, not defensive accumulator" (including in this thread) despite the fact that he is in the best 12 players of all time for contested possession averages and tackle averages. Specifically, I was responding to someone speaking of getting possessions "in chains" through seeking "short gives".

Ablett, whilst he was winning MVP's, B&F's and was rightfully considered the best player in the comp, often got 1-2's and looked for little gives from teammates and got possessions in chains. Do people downgrade Ablett for it? Of course not - nor should they.

But Ablett was only an example - fact is, many top line midfielders get a handful of cheaper possessions and 1-2's, etc.

However, it is really only Mitchell that is heavily criticised for it, primarily because he is the biggest ball winner the game has seen. Any proper analysis, however, demonstrates that Mitchell is regularly in the top 5-10 players in the comp for contested possessions, tackles, clearances and when his team is not terrible, score involvements, etc (these don't necessarily apply to 2021 but these criticisms have dogged Mitchell's entire career). He clearly does win the hard ball, is defensive (funnily enough, others criticise him being too defensive) and can be damaging but is ridiculed for the uncontested footy he wins on top in a way that other players are not - simply because they are getting it 30 times instead of 40 or 50 times.

Im just highlighting the reasons why Mitchell is derided as just an accumulator and someone like Ablett was not. Ablett was damaging with the ball. Mitchells a great player, but he doesnt hurt teams when he gets it like the best players do.
 

Guardian Hawk

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Im just highlighting the reasons why Mitchell is derided as just an accumulator and someone like Ablett was not. Ablett was damaging with the ball. Mitchells a great player, but he doesnt hurt teams when he gets it like the best players do.

and I'm highlighting that this is overstated and applied to Mitchell in ways that it is not to others.

A.Is Mitchell damaging with all of his possessions? No, of course not - if he was, he would be the greatest player of all time (given he gets more ball than anyone) and no one is claiming that.

B.Are there players who are more damaging per possession in the competition? Yes, there are many current mids who on a 'ratio' of possessions are more damaging.

C.Does that mean Mitchell is not damaging? No, of course not. In fact, Mitchell often ends up with more contested possessions, effective possessions, tackles, clearances, metres gained, etc. than many of these so called 'damaging' players. He also ends up with more coaches votes, media votes, brownlow votes, BOG's than many of these 'damaging' players. Is it because the coaches, experts, players and media all have no idea? Of course not. It's because they see the sum of the parts instead of taking A and B above and arriving at C (which is in fact the same argument I have made for your boy Parish). He may be less damaging "per disposal' or by "ratio' than others but his consistency and sheer volume means his damage still outweighs these other players in most cases. The fact he gets some 'useless' possessions at times (as many players do who aren't criticised) doesn't negate all of the other hard earnt and damaging possessions he gets that typically outnumber those of his competitors.

It's an over applied generalisation that has been applied to him and taken too far. People see him get 50 possessions and his team lose and say that that never happens to (insert 'damaging' mid here). Leaving aside the fact that these 'damaging' mids are not capable of getting 50 for it to be tested, people are blaming Mitchell for the ineptitude of his team mates, forgetting that 1 player doesn't win or lose a game. They ignore the fact that the Coaches votes and everything else all had him as the best player on the ground. They also wrongfully assume that every game he plays and every possession he gets, has the same level of 'damage'. Like all players, he is more damaging some weeks than others. Unlike most players, he racks up the ball regardless. A good example is earlier in this thread, someone said they would prefer 25 possessions from Petracca than 50 from Mitchell. Yet, Petracca has been named in the bests in exactly 50% of the games he has had 25+. Mitchell has been best on ground or 2nd best on ground in 100% of the games he has got 50.

In short, it gets taken way too far by some - to the point it contradicts basic and objective facts.
 

Tylerbombers

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Does that mean Mitchell is not damaging? No, of course not.

He is not as damaging as the top 5-10 mids.

Mitchell often ends up with more contested possessions, effective possessions, tackles, clearances, metres gained, etc. than many of these so called 'damaging' players.

Among midfielders in 2021 he was
25th for contested possessions
1st for effective disposals
36th for tackles
41st for clearances
27th for metres gained
43rd for Inside 50s
49th for score involvements

(which is in fact the same argument I have made for your boy Parish). He may be less damaging "per disposal' or by "ratio' than others but his consistency and sheer volume means his damage still outweighs these other players in most cases.

Parish for comparison is

11th for contested possessions
8th for effective disposals
64th for tackles
1st for clearances
7th for metres gained
5th for inside 50s
3rd for score involvements

In short, it gets taken way too far by some - to the point it contradicts basic and objective facts.

I agree he receives more criticism then he deserves. I said earlier in the thread I actually rate Mitchell very highly, especially his 2018 season, just not in the top 10 mids of last year. This year if he gets back to that 2018 form for the whole season he could get back into that top group.
 

Dominic03

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Yes Mitchells contested game in 2018 was elite, but Ablett was always far more damaging, 1.6 goals a game from the midfield is insane and way more goal assists as well. In 2021 Mitchell did not have the contested game he had in 2018 and he was less damaging with ball in hand too, that is why hes derided as an accumulator. If that changes in 2022 I will give him credit for it just like I give him a lot of credit for his 2018 season.
His post bye form in 2021 was very similar to 2018. It was just post bye because of a gamestyle change.
 

Dominic03

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He is not as damaging as the top 5-10 mids.



Among midfielders in 2021 he was
25th for contested possessions
1st for effective disposals
36th for tackles
41st for clearances
27th for metres gained
43rd for Inside 50s
49th for score involvements



Parish for comparison is

11th for contested possessions
8th for effective disposals
64th for tackles
1st for clearances
7th for metres gained
5th for inside 50s
3rd for score involvements



I agree he receives more criticism then he deserves. I said earlier in the thread I actually rate Mitchell very highly, especially his 2018 season, just not in the top 10 mids of last year. This year if he gets back to that 2018 form for the whole season he could get back into that top group.
If he gets back to his 2018 form in 2022, he'll win the brownlow, not just "top group".
 

Tylerbombers

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His post bye form in 2021 was very similar to 2018.

Btw heres Mitchells post bye stats, they are marginally better then his stats for the year but still not as good as 2018 or the top players of this year.
35 disposals
4.4 inside 50s
437 metres gained
12 contested possessions
5.6 clearances
0.6 goals
0.3 goal assists
5.3 score involvements
1.6 score launches
5.6 tackles
 

WalshistheGOAT

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Btw heres Mitchells post bye stats, they are marginally better then his stats for the year but still not as good as 2018 or the top players of this year.
35 disposals
4.4 inside 50s
437 metres gained
12 contested possessions
5.6 clearances
0.6 goals
0.3 goal assists
5.3 score involvements
1.6 score launches
5.6 tackles
Gee whiz basically GAJ 2.0. Look at all that impact with his disposals
 

Guardian Hawk

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He is not as damaging as the top 5-10 mids.

He is in the top 5-10 players over the last 5 years. Since his arrival at Hawthorn (2017) he has played 4 seasons and across those years, he is easily #1 for Brownlow votes, top 6 for Coaches votes (top 3 without 2020 when he returned from a broken leg), #1 for possessions, #1 for effective possessions and top 10 in every key midfielder stat, including the 'damaging' ones.

Among midfielders in 2021 he was
25th for contested possessions
1st for effective disposals
36th for tackles
41st for clearances
27th for metres gained
43rd for Inside 50s
49th for score involvements

Parish for comparison is

11th for contested possessions
8th for effective disposals
64th for tackles
1st for clearances
7th for metres gained
5th for inside 50s
3rd for score involvements

I have acknowledged that his stats in some of these areas are not as high this season, mostly due to a game plan where we played less numbers in the middle and over possessed trying to exit defence. I have been speaking of how he is perceived as a player and the lazy tropes that are trotted out, which extend far beyond this season. As mentioned, he is top 10 (top 5 really) in most of those stats over his career and top 10-12 all time in many of them (possessions, effective possessions, contested possession, tackles, etc.)

Parish had a good season (which is relevant for this thread and why I rated him higher for 2021) but is nowhere near it longitudinally.

Look how often Mitchell has been top 10 in basically all of those areas over the last few years: Tom Mitchell of the Hawthorn Hawks Career AFL Stats (footywire.com)

I agree he receives more criticism then he deserves. I said earlier in the thread I actually rate Mitchell very highly, especially his 2018 season, just not in the top 10 mids of last year. This year if he gets back to that 2018 form for the whole season he could get back into that top group.

Fair enough. I had him 11th best mid and 14th player overall in my rankings (pg. 13). Most player of the year awards had him at the bottom of the top 10, Brownlow had him 7th and coaches award had him top 20 but not top 10, which feels right to me.
 

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Guardian Hawk

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Gee whiz basically GAJ 2.0. Look at all that impact with his disposals

That's a bit condescending mate. Walsh for example, averaged fewer disposals, fewer inside 50's, fewer contested disposals, fewer tackles, fewer metres gained, etc. than those posted numbers - some of them considerably so. Yet I reckon Walsh was incredible this year (I had him 6th)
 

Dominic03

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Btw heres Mitchells post bye stats, they are marginally better then his stats for the year but still not as good as 2018 or the top players of this year.
35 disposals
4.4 inside 50s
437 metres gained
12 contested possessions
5.6 clearances
0.6 goals
0.3 goal assists
5.3 score involvements
1.6 score launches
5.6 tackles
35 disposals a game, 4.5 inside 50s, 440 metres gained, 12 CP, 6 clearances, 0.6 goals, 0.3 goal assists, 5.5 score involvements and 5.6 tackles is very good.

I had him as the best mid post bye.

Individual games:
34 disposals 16 contested 1 goal 7 tackles v Syd
36 disposals 13 contested 1 goal 2 behinds 10 score involvements 6 clearances 8 tackles v Ess
40 disposals 7 contested 8 score involvements 11 marks 400 metres gained 3 tackles 3 inside 50s v GWS
29 disposals 13 contested 8 clearances 6 tackles 6 inside 50s v Port
39 disposals 10 contested 7 clearances 5 tackles v Freo
39 disposals 19 contested 1 goal 610 metres gained 6 clearances 6 tackles 5 inside 50s 6 rebound 50s v Dees
28 disposals 10 contested 1 goal 4 clearances 9 tackles v Crows
34 disposals 13 contested 1 goal 1 goal assist 8 clearances 5 tackles 6 inside 50s 5 rebound 50s v Lions
44 disposals 12 contested 1 goal 1 goal assist 12 score involvements 8 clearances 3 tackles 7 inside 50s v Pies
27 disposals 10 contested 1 goal 1 goal assist 5 score involvements 6 clearances 5 tackles 6 inside 50s v Dogs
36 disposals 10 contested 5 score involvements 6 marks 4 clearances 5 tackles 3 inside 50s v Tigers

35 a game with 12 contested (not as much as his 16 in 2018 which i'd say is probably the biggest difference.)

In these games
Syd W
Ess close but L
GWS W
Port L
Freo L
Dees D
Crows L
Lions W
Pies W
Dogs W
Tigers D

By brownlow votes
3 Votes
2 Votes
3 votes
0 votes
0 votes
3 votes
1 vote
0 votes
3 votes
3 votes
2 votes

20 votes post bye.

In comparison to his 2018 stats
35 and 35 disposals.
4.5 to 5 inside 50s.
437 to 446 metres gained.
12 to 16 contested possies.
5.6 to 8 clearances.
Biggest differences ^
0.6 goals to 0.5 (He kicked 1 goal 7/11 games).
0.3 to 0.5 goal assists.
5.3 to 6.2 score involvements.
1.6 to 1.4 score launches.
5.6 to 6.3 tackles.

Now obviously he wasn't as good as he was in 2018, but he was pretty similar to that and by impact stand points i'd say he was even closer.

4 contested possession difference is pretty big aswell as the 2 ish clearance difference, but still he was arguably the best post bye and when it comes down to it he was ******* deadset elite and was finding his 2018 form again.
 

Tylerbombers

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35 disposals a game, 4.5 inside 50s, 440 metres gained, 12 CP, 6 clearances, 0.6 goals, 0.3 goal assists, 5.5 score involvements and 5.6 tackles is very good.

I had him as the best mid post bye.

Individual games:
34 disposals 16 contested 1 goal 7 tackles v Syd
36 disposals 13 contested 1 goal 2 behinds 10 score involvements 6 clearances 8 tackles v Ess
40 disposals 7 contested 8 score involvements 11 marks 400 metres gained 3 tackles 3 inside 50s v GWS
29 disposals 13 contested 8 clearances 6 tackles 6 inside 50s v Port
39 disposals 10 contested 7 clearances 5 tackles v Freo
39 disposals 19 contested 1 goal 610 metres gained 6 clearances 6 tackles 5 inside 50s 6 rebound 50s v Dees
28 disposals 10 contested 1 goal 4 clearances 9 tackles v Crows
34 disposals 13 contested 1 goal 1 goal assist 8 clearances 5 tackles 6 inside 50s 5 rebound 50s v Lions
44 disposals 12 contested 1 goal 1 goal assist 12 score involvements 8 clearances 3 tackles 7 inside 50s v Pies
27 disposals 10 contested 1 goal 1 goal assist 5 score involvements 6 clearances 5 tackles 6 inside 50s v Dogs
36 disposals 10 contested 5 score involvements 6 marks 4 clearances 5 tackles 3 inside 50s v Tigers

35 a game with 12 contested (not as much as his 16 in 2018 which i'd say is probably the biggest difference.)

In these games
Syd W
Ess close but L
GWS W
Port L
Freo L
Dees D
Crows L
Lions W
Pies W
Dogs W
Tigers D

By brownlow votes
3 Votes
2 Votes
3 votes
0 votes
0 votes
3 votes
1 vote
0 votes
3 votes
3 votes
2 votes

20 votes post bye.

In comparison to his 2018 stats
35 and 35 disposals.
4.5 to 5 inside 50s.
437 to 446 metres gained.
12 to 16 contested possies.
5.6 to 8 clearances.
Biggest differences ^
0.6 goals to 0.5 (He kicked 1 goal 7/11 games).
0.3 to 0.5 goal assists.
5.3 to 6.2 score involvements.
1.6 to 1.4 score launches.
5.6 to 6.3 tackles.

Now obviously he wasn't as good as he was in 2018, but he was pretty similar to that and by impact stand points i'd say he was even closer.

4 contested possession difference is pretty big aswell as the 2 ish clearance difference, but still he was arguably the best post bye and when it comes down to it he was ******* deadset elite and was finding his 2018 form again.

Now go look at the stats of the best mids this year and compare them to Mitchells post bye stats. He still doesnt measure up.
 

Dominic03

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Now go look at the stats of the best mids this year and compare them to Mitchells post bye stats. He still doesnt measure up.
Mate, Mitchell had the most votes post bye (pretty sure) with 20, he was genuinely dominant, in the same games other star mids against him were sh*t aside from the Port/Freo games.

Dees he was the best by far, Dogs mids were crushed, Sydney the same and teams who are apparently the same as us he was also either BOG (very much so) against the Pies and was 2nd best in the Adelaide game.

Only other mids who were as good post bye i'd say Steele/Wines. Dees boys were pretty good too.
 

NeutralFan

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Unsettling to me that the Top 20 players rated now include 4 defenders and only 2 forwards (3 if you really count Stringer as a majority forward).
Doesn't look good to me bar the huge presence some of those absolute star midfielders have going forward.
 

Guardian Hawk

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Unsettling to me that the Top 20 players rated now include 4 defenders and only 2 forwards (3 if you really count Stringer as a majority forward).
Doesn't look good to me bar the huge presence some of those absolute star midfielders have going forward.

Yes, the truth is that it is much easier to be consistent as a defender in the modern game that it is to be a forward. Most defenders get to play with an outnumber in their area and can also get additional touches by running past, switching play, etc. Meanwhile, forwards mostly have to play outnumbered and every touch is typically hard earnt. As such, forwards are probably more capable of having a starring match but less capable of consistent, week to week contributions.

The best and fairest results pretty much tell the story - with 13 winners this year who play midfield, 3 defenders (Stewart, Grimes and Crisp) and 0 forwards (2 rucks).

If you extend it to top 2 - plenty more defenders are there (including Weitering over Coleman winner McKay) but only 1 forward (Toby Greene).

Last year, however, is the real eye opener. There were 5 midfield winners, 2 rucks and these defenders: Jacob Weitering, Jordan Ridley, Sam Collins, Luke Ryan, Nick Haynes/Lachie Whitfield, Luke McDonald, Darcy Byrne Jones, Jayden Short, Jake Lloyd and Caleb Daniel. Jack Gunston was the only forward. 10 clubs had defenders win their B&F and only 1 forward!

My own side is a pretty good example of the difference in difficulty at playing at each end with nearly all of our young players emerging as promising defenders. You also have Sicily who is a decent forward but a star back, Impey who is inconsistent forward but quality back, Hardwick the same and then you have Jiath, Bramble, Day, Scrimshaw who all look good while regularly enjoying an outnumber in defence.

It's a tough era for forwards - when "bring the ball to ground" (for no stat) is considered a win.
 
Last edited:

Trav 20

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Mate, Mitchell had the most votes post bye (pretty sure) with 20, he was genuinely dominant, in the same games other star mids against him were sh*t aside from the Port/Freo games.

Dees he was the best by far, Dogs mids were crushed, Sydney the same and teams who are apparently the same as us he was also either BOG (very much so) against the Pies and was 2nd best in the Adelaide game.

Only other mids who were as good post bye i'd say Steele/Wines. Dees boys were pretty good too.
Judging players by stats and Brownlow votes ?

Try using your eyes.

Btw, Wines had 21 votes from round 13 onwards. Not that it matters.
 

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