Max King

[bird_man]

OK, after Max King being announced as “arrived” and playing his last dozen games at "elite level” by the normally hapless PJays I made a post challenging PJays to predict how King would go over his next 6 games. PJays wanted no part of it, even when I tried to tempt him with some over and under lines across a range of stats for King in those 6 games.

Now the 6 games have been played, how did little Maxy Waxy go?

These were the lines I set for Max for the 6 game block rounds 4-9 in post #121 on this thread:

1. 16.5 goals
2. 9.5 behinds
3. 4.5 goal assists
4. 0.5 games where he goes below 2 goals + goal assists
5. 3rd on the list of 10 for average goals + goal assists over the 6 rounds((King,) Larkey, Weideman, Balta(if he stays there) Naughton, Ugle-Hagan, Lewis, McKay, Curnow, T. Marshall.)

Results are in:

1. 14 goals
2. 14 behinds
3. 2 goal assists
4. 1 game below 2 goals + goal assists
5. Max averaged 2.66 goals + goal assists per game. Balta was moved to defence so forget him. The others?

Larkey averaged 2.0 goals + goal assists
Weideman 1.5
Naughton 3.66
Ugle-Hagan 0.66
Lewis 3.33
McKay 3.0
Curnow 3.5
Marshall 2.5

Max came in 5th on the list of 9 for average goals + goal assists across the 6 matches. And this was just a bit of a random list of young key forwards. Max finished ahead of Weideman, Ugle-Hagan, North spearhead Larkey, and also pipped Marshall. Well done Max.

Lucky PJays bottled it and didn’t back Max’s performance with me across the 6 matches. The only line he beat was for kicking behinds, at which he has been truly elite.

How did the actual elite key forward performers go in the same period?

Tom Lynch. 4.66 goals + goal assists
Tom Hawkins 3.83
*Matt Taberner 3.66
A Naughton 3.66
Jeremy Cameron 3.5
T Walker 3.33
L Franklin 3.2
*J Danihurt 3.0
J Riewoldt 3.0
M Chol 3.0
-
-
-
-
-
M King 2.66

*player's performance affected by being subbed out in a match.

You would have to say if Max King had arrived at elite after rd 3 he has since gone through departures and fallen back to bang in the middle of a group of young key forwards who are trying to make a name for themselves.

Sadly, it appears the over-excited PJays has gone off a little bit early on this thread. Unlucky PJays.

Not sure you could possibly argue he's just in the middle of the group of young key forwards

He's 21 years old and averaging 2.6 goals a game. How many current day key forwards have been able to do that at 21?

Franklin, Riewoldt and Cameron as far as I can see. None of those other young players that are all older than him did it.

McKay - 1.3
Daniher - 1.9
Wright - 0.7
Tabaner - 0.9
Himmleburg 1.3
Hawkins 1.2
Lewis 0.6
Ben Brown - 1.6
Larkey 1.4
Dixon 0.3
Marshall - 0.8
Lynch - 2.1
Kennedy - 1.9
Naughton 1.9

And let's not forget King is coming from a fair way back after not playing in 2018 and then the majority of 2019.

Seems to be tracking alright to me

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Not sure you could possibly argue he's just in the middle of the group of young key forwards

He's 21 years old and averaging 2.6 goals a game. How many current day key forwards have been able to do that at 21?

Franklin, Riewoldt and Cameron as far as I can see. None of those other young players that are all older than him did it.

McKay - 1.3
Daniher - 1.9
Wright - 0.7
Tabaner - 0.9
Himmleburg 1.3
Hawkins 1.2
Lewis 0.6
Ben Brown - 1.6
Larkey 1.4
Dixon 0.3
Marshall - 0.8
Lynch - 2.1
Kennedy - 1.9
Naughton 1.9

And let's not forget King is coming from a fair way back after not playing in 2018 and then the majority of 2019.

Seems to be tracking alright to me

I am not arguing he is "just in the middle of the group of young key forwards” as you put it. I said that is where he sat in a specific 6 game sample when measured only against goals + goals assists. People seem to be imagining my position very differently to what it is. You might need to read all my posts on the thread rather than picking up cues about my position from what others are posting about it.

 

[bird_man]

Don’t you have to be consistent though to be elite? I mean you’d have to agree or do you think 2 Meter Peter is now elite for the rest of the year cause he kicked a bag of 6 the other week? I don’t think King is near consistent enough tbh, his goal kicking accuracy is about 53% last time I checked which is pretty ordinary. I think he’s biggest bag for the year is only 4 goals which he’s only done a couple of times.

So one hand you are arguing he isn't consistent but on the other you are knocking him because he hasn't kicked more than 4 goals.

Seems like a bloke that hasn't kicked big bags but has still been able to sit 6th in the Coleman would be consistent.

49 goals 30 behinds in his last 19 games

 

[bird_man]

I am not arguing he is "just in the middle of the group of young key forwards” as you put it. I said that is where he sat in a specific 6 game sample when measured only against goals + goals assists. People seem to be imagining my position very differently to what it is. You might need to read all my posts on the thread rather than picking up cues about my position from what others are posting about it.

I've read your posts and I'm really not sure what you are trying to say then. So you think that because his goals have dropped off slightly over the last 6 weeks he hasn't arrived as an elite key forward.

He's kicked 49 goals and 30 behinds in his last 19 games and has been top 2 in contested marks in the competition in that time.

All at the ripe.age of 21.

How long does that form have to keep up before you think he has arrived?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Who do you consider to be the top 5 Key Forwards of the year (so far)?

Fair question.

I actually think based on a mixture of instant form and longer trends etc and allowing for the teams they represent and specific roles etc, there is a group of about 15 strong key forwards at present who are more close than is normally the case, and King is one of those. The others:

Hawkins, Cameron, Riewoldt, Lynch, Taberner, Wright, Franklin, Naughton, Daniher, Larkey, Lewis, Walker, Kennedy, McKay and Curnow, King.

At this stage I have omitted the long term injured players like Hipwood, Dixon, B King. We can assess them fairly as they put together a body of work post injury.

It is a bit of a strange time because so many of the better ones are older and likely on the way down. Only probably McKay Curnow Daniher Taberner Wright Lynch and Cameron are in their prime. I have left out Mihocek as he is in his prime but still a bit fringe in terms of being elite.

If you asked me to pick say a top 5 to play in a knockout game next weekend I would probably say: Hawkins, Lynch, Taberner, Naughton, Curnow.

That list of 5 is instant though and obviously can change month to month. King I would have in the bottom half of this larger group for now, and probably realistically out of the top 10, but I think he is the youngest player on my list so it is no knock on him to say that.

It is obvious 4 or 5 of these guys will be retired in the next couple of seasons, Franklin, Walker, Riewoldt, Hawkins, Kennedy at least.

So with a decent run King should move up the rankings due to that alone, and with some natural improvement to come I would imagine he slots into the top 5 within 3 seasons. But that is all before him to be proven. Rating him elite as of now is premature by any definition or measure that I could take seriously.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I've read your posts and I'm really not sure what you are trying to say then. So you think that because his goals have dropped off slightly over the last 6 weeks he hasn't arrived as an elite key forward.

He's kicked 49 goals and 30 behinds in his last 19 games and has been top 2 in contested marks in the competition in that time.

All at the ripe.age of 21.

How long does that form have to keep up before you think he has arrived?

King has 48 goals in his last 19 games and 9 goal assists. I am not knocking that, it is a great effort for a player his age. But it is not elite. To be considered elite it needs to be in the top 5 or 6 in the AFL.

Taberner for example has more goals + goals assists in his last 19 games despite being in and out with injuries and playing in a lower scoring team than the Saints. Hawkins has way more. Cameron has more despite having injury issues last year and two massive losing finals being in his sample. Lynch has more despite a mid season knee operation being within his sample. Riewoldt has one less than King over his last 19 games, and has a lot of people(incorrectly) saying he is finished as a result of his form in that time.

King for me needs one more surge to say he is elite. He needs a whole season averaging clearly above 3 goals + goal assists per match, given he is playing in a likely top 6 team with loads of indoor games. He is averaging a tick under 3 so far this season, so he is thereabouts. If he improves in the second half of this season - entirely possible - he might just about move into the top 5-6 in his position, but I don’t think anyone can fairly say he has done that yet.

 

[WillHayward]

Still 4 years away from peaking.
He's gonna be unreal.
Already very good

 

[bird_man]

King has 48 goals in his last 19 games and 9 goal assists. I am not knocking that, it is a great effort for a player his age. But it is not elite. To be considered elite it needs to be in the top 5 or 6 in the AFL.

Taberner for example has more goals + goals assists in his last 19 games despite being in and out with injuries and playing in a lower scoring team than the Saints. Hawkins has way more. Cameron has more despite having injury issues last year and two massive losing finals being in his sample. Lynch has more despite a mid season knee operation being within his sample. Riewoldt has one less than King over his last 19 games, and has a lot of people(incorrectly) saying he is finished as a result of his form in that time.

King for me needs one more surge to say he is elite. He needs a whole season averaging clearly above 3 goals + goal assists per match, given he is playing in a likely top 6 team with loads of indoor games. He is averaging a tick under 3 so far this season, so he is thereabouts. If he improves in the second half of this season - entirely possible - he might just about move into the top 5-6 in his position, but I don’t think anyone can fairly say he has done that yet.

Yet Naughton has only kicked 36 with 12 in that period and you have him in your top 5 key forwards and rated as elite.

That's A fair way below the 3 a game you suggest you need to average for a season to be an elite player?

I suppose it comes down to how you rate an elite player. Hawkins is thr best key forward in the comp so it's no surprise he is behind him. The fact he is so close to those others and ahead of thr likes of Naughton amd Riewoldt has him up there for me though.

You've obviously got a rule that only 5 key forwards in the comp can be elite, but this is despite so many of them being very close in quality and output.

I'm not sure you can really put a cap on it. It would be something that fluctuates depending on the amount of quality key forwards going around surely.

IMO we are fairly blessed to have a good number of quality key forwards at the moment. King is clearly one of them.

 

[Veer Right]

King has 48 goals in his last 19 games and 9 goal assists. I am not knocking that, it is a great effort for a player his age. But it is not elite. To be considered elite it needs to be in the top 5 or 6 in the AFL.

Taberner for example has more goals + goals assists in his last 19 games despite being in and out with injuries and playing in a lower scoring team than the Saints. Hawkins has way more. Cameron has more despite having injury issues last year and two massive losing finals being in his sample. Lynch has more despite a mid season knee operation being within his sample. Riewoldt has one less than King over his last 19 games, and has a lot of people(incorrectly) saying he is finished as a result of his form in that time.

King for me needs one more surge to say he is elite. He needs a whole season averaging clearly above 3 goals + goal assists per match, given he is playing in a likely top 6 team with loads of indoor games. He is averaging a tick under 3 so far this season, so he is thereabouts. If he improves in the second half of this season - entirely possible - he might just about move into the top 5-6 in his position, but I don’t think anyone can fairly say he has done that yet.

He's still short of the 50 game mark so in saying that, 2023 will be his breakout season.

Was never going to be this year. So far, so good. Marking is a serious weapon, his kicking is crap, body doesn't look close to prime. Lot's of improvement to come while already looking very dangerous.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Yet Naughton has only kicked 36 with 12 in that period and you have him in your top 5 key forwards and rated as elite.

That's A fair way below the 3 a game you suggest you need to average for a season to be an elite player?

I suppose it comes down to how you rate an elite player. Hawkins is thr best key forward in the comp so it's no surprise he is behind him. The fact he is so close to those others and ahead of thr likes of Naughton amd Riewoldt has him up there for me though.

You've obviously got a rule that only 5 key forwards in the comp can be elite, but this is despite so many of them being very close in quality and output.

I'm not sure you can really put a cap on it. It would be something that fluctuates depending on the amount of quality key forwards going around surely.

IMO we are fairly blessed to have a good number of quality key forwards at the moment. King is clearly one of them.

It is a very blurry line for key forwards at present. So many of the best ones have been hampered by injuries at a time when King clearly hasn’t.

Naughton is just 7 months older than King.

Here is their comparison over this season. I give that slightly to Naughton but it is a close run thing. Both teams have scored a similar amount for the season. You can see King does better in the air, and has slightly more goals, Naughton does better overall for disposals, contested possessions, tackles, goals+goal assists and score involvements. King turns the ball over more, Naughton gets more intercepts. I took Naughton because I like his all round game a bit better, where if you can stop Max marking or put his disposal under any pressure he is more likely to struggle for positive impact than if you took Naughton’s best weapons off him.

Max’s good run v Naughton’s weaker run last season I am overlooking a this stage. Naughton played in a lot of big games as a 21yo, something Max will likely get his chance to do as a 22yo this season.

To me the truly elite guys are the ones who their best form makes them AA or wins Coleman or wins goals+goal assist Coleman or right up there. Max King is a bit off that yet and that is based on him having a really good shot at it over the last year fitness wise and flying under the radar a bit.

If he goes well in the finals against decent direct opponents, that will change my mind totally, so let’s see how he gets on, he should get his chance.

 

[bird_man]

It is a very blurry line for key forwards at present. So many of the best ones have been hampered by injuries at a time when King clearly hasn’t.

Naughton is just 7 months older than King.

Here is their comparison over this season. I give that slightly to Naughton but it is a close run thing. Both teams have scored a similar amount for the season. You can see King does better in the air, and has slightly more goals, Naughton does better overall for disposals, contested possessions, tackles, goals+goal assists and score involvements. King turns the ball over more, Naughton gets more intercepts. I took Naughton because I like his all round game a bit better, where if you can stop Max marking or put his disposal under any pressure he is more likely to struggle for positive impact than if you took Naughton’s best weapons off him.

Max’s good run v Naughton’s weaker run last season I am overlooking a this stage. Naughton played in a lot of big games as a 21yo, something Max will likely get his chance to do as a 22yo this season.

To me the truly elite guys are the ones who their best form makes them AA or wins Coleman or wins goals+goal assist Coleman or right up there. Max King is a bit off that yet and that is based on him having a really good shot at it over the last year fitness wise and flying under the radar a bit.

If he goes well in the finals against decent direct opponents, that will change my mind totally, so let’s see how he gets on, he should get his chance.



View attachment 1401811

So Naughton is a top 5 key forward in the comp and King is not elite, despite averaging more goals because Naughton averages

1.1 more disposals
0.3 contested possessions
0.1 score involvements
0.2 less clangers

Also no mention of King averaging 50% more contested marks

I feel that you using those stats as a reason why Naughton is a top 5 key forward in the comp and King not being elite is clutching at straws.

Both are very close with where they are at. If one isn't elite then neither is the other.

 

[Present Not Past]

He looked exhausted during that final quarter on Saturday.
Putting Paddy Ryder in the forward line not only was a smart move by Ratten, it also won us the game.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

So Naughton is a top 5 key forward in the comp and King is not elite, despite averaging more goals because Naughton averages

1.1 more disposals
0.3 contested possessions
0.1 score involvements
0.2 less clangers

Also no mention of King averaging 50% more contested marks

I feel that you using those stats as a reason why Naughton is a top 5 key forward in the comp and King not being elite is clutching at straws.

Both are very close with where they are at. If one isn't elite then neither is the other.

Your conclusion they are both elite or neither may or may not be correct. But the limited sample of stats you present to support the conclusion is not why I am taking Naughton over King.

Naughton leads by these margins in the following areas:

Disposals: 10%
Goals + Goal Assists: 7%
Tackles: 160%(2.1 v 0.8 per match)
All Contested possessions, including marks: 5%
Effective Disposals: 34%
Score Involvements: Negligible
Turnovers: King has about 35% more
Intercepts: Naughton has almost one per match, King has a negligible amount.

The areas King leads are part of areas Naughton leads him overall….

King leads goals by 9% but is behind overall in goals+goal assists
King leads contested marks by 50% but is behind overall in contested possessions.
King leads marks but is behind overall in possessions.
King leads 1%ers by 33% it is about his only stand alone category win that doesn’t fit within another broader category where Naughton leads.

I happily concede there is not all that much between them, but these are the reasons I take Naughton over King for a must win match this week, which was my criteria. He has a better all round game and uses the ball better, at this stage.

I watch almost all the games and Naughton has been fantastic this season, especially given not much aerial support down there in most games, certainly compared to King.

 

[master bate]

Freakish reach and ability to grab it higher than almost all defenders. Reads it well too. Doesn’t set up defenders with off the ball movement just yet. And his body work really hasn’t come on at all yet, it’s still poor even accounting for age I think. De Koning had his way with him plenty of times with early body work.

It’s scary how good he can be if he can add that to his game.

 

[MickG88]

Your conclusion they are both elite or neither may or may not be correct. But the limited sample of stats you present to support the conclusion is not why I am taking Naughton over King.

Naughton leads by these margins in the following areas:

Disposals: 10%
Goals + Goal Assists: 7%
Tackles: 160%(2.1 v 0.8 per match)
All Contested possessions, including marks: 5%
Effective Disposals: 34%
Score Involvements: Negligible
Turnovers: King has about 35% more
Intercepts: Naughton has almost one per match, King has a negligible amount.

The areas King leads are part of areas Naughton leads him overall….

King leads goals by 9% but is behind overall in goals+goal assists
King leads contested marks by 50% but is behind overall in contested possessions.
King leads marks but is behind overall in possessions.
King leads 1%ers by 33% it is about his only stand alone category win that doesn’t fit within another broader category where Naughton leads.

I happily concede there is not all that much between them, but these are the reasons I take Naughton over King for a must win match this week, which was my criteria. He has a better all round game and uses the ball better, at this stage.

I watch almost all the games and Naughton has been fantastic this season, especially given not much aerial support down there in most games, certainly compared to King.

They are both completely different key forwards, if you are going to compare King then go with McKay and Compare Naughton with Curnow.

 

[MickG88]

Freakish reach and ability to grab it higher than almost all defenders. Reads it well too. Doesn’t set up defenders with off the ball movement just yet. And his body work really hasn’t come on at all yet, it’s still poor even accounting for age I think. De Koning had his way with him plenty of times with early body work.

It’s scary how good he can be if he can add that to his game.

So that would mean that De Koning would of been able to have more contested marks than King, if he out bodied Max King?

 

[Foucault1989]

Your conclusion they are both elite or neither may or may not be correct. But the limited sample of stats you present to support the conclusion is not why I am taking Naughton over King.

Naughton leads by these margins in the following areas:

Disposals: 10%
Goals + Goal Assists: 7%
Tackles: 160%(2.1 v 0.8 per match)
All Contested possessions, including marks: 5%
Effective Disposals: 34%
Score Involvements: Negligible
Turnovers: King has about 35% more
Intercepts: Naughton has almost one per match, King has a negligible amount.

The areas King leads are part of areas Naughton leads him overall….

King leads goals by 9% but is behind overall in goals+goal assists
King leads contested marks by 50% but is behind overall in contested possessions.
King leads marks but is behind overall in possessions.
King leads 1%ers by 33% it is about his only stand alone category win that doesn’t fit within another broader category where Naughton leads.

I happily concede there is not all that much between them, but these are the reasons I take Naughton over King for a must win match this week, which was my criteria. He has a better all round game and uses the ball better, at this stage.

I watch almost all the games and Naughton has been fantastic this season, especially given not much aerial support down there in most games, certainly compared to King.

You're making a fool of yourself with your misleading percentages. Shut up and get over it. He's won the argument.

 

[MickG88]

Fair question.

I actually think based on a mixture of instant form and longer trends etc and allowing for the teams they represent and specific roles etc, there is a group of about 15 strong key forwards at present who are more close than is normally the case, and King is one of those. The others:

Hawkins, Cameron, Riewoldt, Lynch, Taberner, Wright, Franklin, Naughton, Daniher, Larkey, Lewis, Walker, Kennedy, McKay and Curnow, King.

At this stage I have omitted the long term injured players like Hipwood, Dixon, B King. We can assess them fairly as they put together a body of work post injury.

It is a bit of a strange time because so many of the better ones are older and likely on the way down. Only probably McKay Curnow Daniher Taberner Wright Lynch and Cameron are in their prime. I have left out Mihocek as he is in his prime but still a bit fringe in terms of being elite.

If you asked me to pick say a top 5 to play in a knockout game next weekend I would probably say: Hawkins, Lynch, Taberner, Naughton, Curnow.

That list of 5 is instant though and obviously can change month to month. King I would have in the bottom half of this larger group for now, and probably realistically out of the top 10, but I think he is the youngest player on my list so it is no knock on him to say that.

It is obvious 4 or 5 of these guys will be retired in the next couple of seasons, Franklin, Walker, Riewoldt, Hawkins, Kennedy at least.

So with a decent run King should move up the rankings due to that alone, and with some natural improvement to come I would imagine he slots into the top 5 within 3 seasons. But that is all before him to be proven. Rating him elite as of now is premature by any definition or measure that I could take seriously.

Another question, What do you consider prime? Is it age? like between 24 and 28?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Another question, What do you consider prime? Is it age? like between 24 and 28?

I would say 24 to 29 should be the absolute prime for most top quality players. You can play well outside of that of course but most of the best players win all their awards etc in that range.

 

[bird_man]

Your conclusion they are both elite or neither may or may not be correct. But the limited sample of stats you present to support the conclusion is not why I am taking Naughton over King.

Naughton leads by these margins in the following areas:

Disposals: 10%
Goals + Goal Assists: 7%
Tackles: 160%(2.1 v 0.8 per match)
All Contested possessions, including marks: 5%
Effective Disposals: 34%
Score Involvements: Negligible
Turnovers: King has about 35% more
Intercepts: Naughton has almost one per match, King has a negligible amount.

The areas King leads are part of areas Naughton leads him overall….

King leads goals by 9% but is behind overall in goals+goal assists
King leads contested marks by 50% but is behind overall in contested possessions.
King leads marks but is behind overall in possessions.
King leads 1%ers by 33% it is about his only stand alone category win that doesn’t fit within another broader category where Naughton leads.

I happily concede there is not all that much between them, but these are the reasons I take Naughton over King for a must win match this week, which was my criteria. He has a better all round game and uses the ball better, at this stage.

I watch almost all the games and Naughton has been fantastic this season, especially given not much aerial support down there in most games, certainly compared to King.

Not sure why you are trying to diminish his contested mark stat by throwing it in with overall contested possessions.

Clearly a contested mark for a key forward would be rated a lot higher than an average contested possession.

King sits at number 2 in the competition for this stat.

Anyway, going off your formula neither are elite yet as neither have been able to average more than 3 goals a game for a full season yet.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Not sure why you are trying to diminish his contested mark stat by throwing it in with overall contested possessions.

Clearly a contested mark for a key forward would be rated a lot higher than an average contested possession.

King sits at number 2 in the competition for this stat.

Anyway, going off your formula neither are elite yet as neither have been able to average more than 3 goals a game for a full season yet.

I am not trying to diminish this stat of Max King’s. I am specifically comparing him to another player, Naughton.

If King’s greater amount of contested marks in 2022 are actually worth more than Naughton’s greater amount of contested ground ball possessions, wouldn’t it follow King would have more score involvements or goals + goal assists?

The use to which a player puts his possessions is important, is it not? I also paid attention to Naughton’s much higher tackle numbers and much lower free kicks against and turnovers.

Contested marking is a key stat for key forwards but it doesn’t mean a player who takes less contested marks cannot perform better than a player who takes more contested marks. Lance Franklin for example is seen basically by everyone as the best key forward of this century. He has averaged 1.64 contested marks per game. Tom Lynch averages 2 per game. Hawkins 1.86. Casboult 1.99. Nick Riewoldt 1.92. Charlie Dixon 1.84. Just to name a few players rated under Franklin who took/take more contested marks. A hell of a lot of these players seem to spike to around 2.5 contested marks per game in their first strong season, then plateau or taper from there as opponents give them greater attention, injuries happen and their leap diminishes.

In any event, Naughton, who is only 7 months older than King, averaged more contested marks over the whole season last year and Naughton’s relatively lower number this year looks an anomaly based on his previous record. I am guessing caused by having little or no aerial support meaning he is almost always flying for contested marks against multiple players.

I agree that neither Naughton nor King are proven elite yet. I am sure given a fair run both will get there, but let’s not put the cart before the horse.

 

[bird_man]

I am not trying to diminish this stat of Max King’s. I am specifically comparing him to another player, Naughton.

If King’s greater amount of contested marks in 2022 are actually worth more than Naughton’s greater amount of contested ground ball possessions, wouldn’t it follow King would have more score involvements or goals + goal assists?

The use to which a player puts his possessions is important, is it not? I also paid attention to Naughton’s much higher tackle numbers and much lower free kicks against and turnovers.

Contested marking is a key stat for key forwards but it doesn’t mean a player who takes less contested marks cannot perform better than a player who takes more contested marks. Lance Franklin for example is seen basically by everyone as the best key forward of this century. He has averaged 1.64 contested marks per game. Tom Lynch averages 2 per game. Hawkins 1.86. Casboult 1.99. Nick Riewoldt 1.92. Charlie Dixon 1.84. Just to name a few players rated under Franklin who took/take more contested marks. A hell of a lot of these players seem to spike to around 2.5 contested marks per game in their first strong season, then plateau or taper from there as opponents give them greater attention, injuries happen and their leap diminishes.

In any event, Naughton, who is only 7 months older than King, averaged more contested marks over the whole season last year and Naughton’s relatively lower number this year looks an anomaly based on his previous record. I am guessing caused by having little or no aerial support meaning he is almost always flying for contested marks against multiple players.

I agree that neither Naughton nor King are proven elite yet. I am sure given a fair run both will get there, but let’s not put the cart before the horse.

Ah right, so Naughton isn't elite either.

This is despite him being in the top 5 key forwards in the comp and being in the top 6 forwards in the comp was initially part of your formula to being elite.

Forgive me for being confused.

 

[Andy_Mac]

Nothing at all wrong with Max King

Multiple players found. Use birthday to differentiate. eg [PLAYERCARD="23/11/1962"]Joe Smith[/PLAYERCARD]

. If he isn’t a star yet, it’s only a matter of time before he is.


St Kilda’s challenge is to try and build a list around him that maximises this opportunity.

 

[Falcon3518]

also 4 years into Tom lynch's career at round 9 he had only kicked 22 goals 5 behinds, so if you are going to compare apples to apples maybe use the right stats.

I don’t get this argument, it has no baring on who’d be a better player. Hannebery got rising star in 2010 over Dusty, over his career he hasn’t turned out as good.

 

[staffonly]

I don’t get this argument, it has no baring on who’d be a better player. Hannebery got rising star in 2010 over Dusty, over his career he hasn’t turned out as good.

Ridiculous comparison.