Apples' Training Reports

[loki04]

I would suggest that apples with apples might be a good starting point.

IMO, Kirby’s fitness is league worst (or at best he’s amongst the worst few) as we sit so pick the league worst in each of those areas and we’ll make a comparison of how far they are off acceptable.

Thank you for reinforcing my point re the rose coloured glasses. He deserves hugs all round for improving from league worst by a long stretch to just league worst #progress

Perhaps with progress as our aim at the rate Kirby’s fitness is going we’ll be back in the 8 by 2025

I want to say that we truly are special at Collingwood for the lengths we’ll go to in order to avoid hard truths, but unfortunately I think that’s just the nature of sports fans and I’ve been guilty of it before too.

I think the club would be looking to see improvement from Kirby from last years base line to this years, which he clearly has as the year before I think he said he didn't finish it to now being under 8 and a half minutes.

So last year he was so far behind he couldn't even complete a time trial to this year being under 9 minutes I think that shows great growth.

Kirby was always going to be a slow burn even if we wanted him to debut early to get a taste now he has and shown he has a long way to go to be AFL relevant he can work on his base line and tank to get it to AFL standard. Might take another preseason on top of this one to get him there.

 

[jackcass]

It is the start of the preseason not the end. KK apears to have at least maintained his fitness over the break. Yes he needs to continue to improve over the preseason but at the moment there seems to be a lot of discussion about nothing much.

There is still 5 monthish to round 1.

Worst case scenario, he'll absolutely smash the VFL goal kicking in 2018 coming off an improved base.

 

[Gambit78]

Kayle Kirby is the fittest he's ever been...

Pumping out PBs...

Toughest pre-season ever...

Thing is, for Kirby to succeed, he cannot have a serious injury of any sort. Fine margins, because he's a long way behind and he needs to work, but if he gets an injury that puts him out for 6+ weeks, then he's stuffed. Back to pre-draft days regarding fitness. And that's his career. How patient does a club need to be? I'm happy to put him through his paces for a couple of years and see what progress is made. But in Kirby's case, a little bit of good fortune is required as well. That's the risk.

It's taken Maynard 3 pre-seasons for us to start considering him as a possible midfielder.

 

[loki04]

Sounds like GW doesn’t know what BigFooty is.

Well he does now.

 

[Lefthanded]

Grundy's time trials were notoriously bad to begin with. What times did he used to post?

I like your intent of showing someone who may have had bad fitness and has proven themselves on the AFL field but intstead of a ruckman I'd be more interested in what baseline someone like Dane Swan started out at. KK as a forward would be expected to get to lower base than a mid and I imagine Dane wasn't the best trainer (at least to begin with) but certainly produced when it counted. That's what I expect from KK.

 

[Brad Goodman]

IMO, Kirby’s fitness is league worst (or at best he’s amongst the worst few)

It never won't be, we can choose to either accept it and work within it or not.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

I look forward to seeing how he goes in simulated match practice.

Or as I like to call it, the Kirby derby.

 

[DaVe86]

It's a fine balance with Kirby.

The club clearly knows how far back he is, which is why it took until round 23 for him to crack a game.

If they push him to hard, it could make him lose the love of the game. Go too easy on him and he'll never improve. He is a project player, taken with a very late draft pick due to his enormous upside, but very poor fitness.

Clearly there has been improvement. He wasn't even able to participate in the time trial last year. So that's something.

If you look at Brayden Sier, he ran mid 7minutes in his first tie-trial, and now he is running mid 6minutes. So it shows that with the right training, he can improve.

I think it is a positive he has come back from off-season still in similar condition to what he finished the season, and now has 5 months to keep improving.

 

[loki04]

It's a fine balance with Kirby.

The club clearly knows how far back he is, which is why it took until round 23 for him to crack a game.

If they push him to hard, it could make him lose the love of the game. Go too easy on him and he'll never improve. He is a project player, taken with a very late draft pick due to his enormous upside, but very poor fitness.

Clearly there has been improvement. He wasn't even able to participate in the time trial last year. So that's something.

If you look at Brayden Sier, he ran mid 7minutes in his first tie-trial, and now he is running mid 6minutes. So it shows that with the right training, he can improve.

I think it is a positive he has come back from off-season still in similar condition to what he finished the season, and now has 5 months to keep improving.

Also there is nothing stopping kirby dropping into low 7s or high 6s by end of preseason, he has clearly come back in better shape then this time last year.

 

[Couch Coach]

I like your intent of showing someone who may have had bad fitness and has proven themselves on the AFL field but intstead of a ruckman I'd be more interested in what baseline someone like Dane Swan started out at. KK as a forward would be expected to get to lower base than a mid and I imagine Dane wasn't the best trainer (at least to begin with) but certainly produced when it counted. That's what I expect from KK.

"Sam Hayes 14
POS: Ruckman/key forward, Ht 203cm, Wt 93kg, DOB 9/6/1999
From Eastern Ranges/Vic Metro
September ranking: 10

The best ruckman in the draft also showed good signs as a forward at stages this season, including kicking six goals in a game for the Ranges. That's a bonus rather than a necessity, because Hayes' best work still comes as a ruckman and roaming player, where he's capable of finding the ball regularly. He averaged 15 disposals at TAC Cup level this season and some scouts see him as one of the most talented rucks to come through the pool in recent years. Having finished right near the bottom in the endurance tests at the Combine (the Yo-Yo and 2km time trial) Hayes will need to improve his aerobic base."

Sam apparently recorded a 8:22 time at the combine and is still tipped to be a first round pick this year. (Yes he is a Ruck/Forward not a small forward like Kirby)

 

[didaksrightfoot]

I would suggest that apples with apples might be a good starting point.

IMO, Kirby’s fitness is league worst (or at best he’s amongst the worst few) as we sit so pick the league worst in each of those areas and we’ll make a comparison of how far they are off acceptable.

Thank you for reinforcing my point re the rose coloured glasses. He deserves hugs all round for improving from league worst by a long stretch to just league worst #progress

Perhaps with progress as our aim at the rate Kirby’s fitness is going we’ll be back in the 8 by 2025

I want to say that we truly are special at Collingwood for the lengths we’ll go to in order to avoid hard truths, but unfortunately I think that’s just the nature of sports fans and I’ve been guilty of it before too.

Thanks for just taking points to the extreme.
Who the * is saying hugs all round?
Who is saying Kirby os a sure thing or that he doesnt have a lot of work to do?

I have not seen anyone make those comments and i definitely havent.
The fact is Kirby was a late 3rd round pick - anyone taken that late is always a long shot.
---

As a comparison - lets look at Mason Cox and the ability of "Football IQ".
His progress arc in Football IQ could be easily compared to Kirby and Fitness:
2 years ago, Mason's FIQ was basically zero. Fair to say that Kirbys fitness on entering our program was pretty much the same.
Last season - Mason's FIQ was probably still the worst in the league, but he had made huge progress. This season he continued to make improvements, and now we are confident enough that this will keep improving that it will support the other skills he has to be a quality AFL player (enough so that the club gave him a 3yr deal).

Just replace Football IQ with Fitness and that is the kind of arc I would like to see from Kayle - he just needs to keep putting the work in.

And before you say that I shouldnt be comparing him to a guy who's never played AFL footy before, I would suggest that Kayle may be a guy who has never seen what professional level fitness looks like before. Hes coming from just as far behind the pack as Mason was.

 

[sr36]

I like your intent of showing someone who may have had bad fitness and has proven themselves on the AFL field but intstead of a ruckman I'd be more interested in what baseline someone like Dane Swan started out at. KK as a forward would be expected to get to lower base than a mid and I imagine Dane wasn't the best trainer (at least to begin with) but certainly produced when it counted. That's what I expect from KK.

I asked about Grundy, because I remember he was miles off the pace in the time trials in his first two preseaso. I'm genuinely curious about Grundy's times in his first two preseasons to see if Kirby being so far off the pace is unprecedented or not.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

It's a fine balance with Kirby.

The club clearly knows how far back he is, which is why it took until round 23 for him to crack a game.

If they push him to hard, it could make him lose the love of the game. Go too easy on him and he'll never improve. He is a project player, taken with a very late draft pick due to his enormous upside, but very poor fitness.

Clearly there has been improvement. He wasn't even able to participate in the time trial last year. So that's something.

If you look at Brayden Sier, he ran mid 7minutes in his first tie-trial, and now he is running mid 6minutes. So it shows that with the right training, he can improve.

I think it is a positive he has come back from off-season still in similar condition to what he finished the season, and now has 5 months to keep improving.

Agreed.
However, I dont think its even about losing love for the game, its about making sure the improvement is consistent and sustained and avoids the risk of injury.
He was never gonna go from unfit to AFL-level fit quickly, I would expect the sports science guys have had a very gradual plan with him.

Its the same with the slim bigs. You dont expect them to put on 10kg of mass in their first season (even though they probably could) because it actually isnt seen as good for their development. Im pretty sure they look for something 2-3kg gains each season over 3-4 years. I would suggest they are looking for the equivalent rate of progress in Kirbys fitness.

 

[Scodog10]

Thanks for just taking points to the extreme.
Who the **** is saying hugs all round?
Who is saying Kirby os a sure thing or that he doesnt have a lot of work to do?

I have not seen anyone make those comments and i definitely havent.
The fact is Kirby was a late 3rd round pick - anyone taken that late is always a long shot.
---

As a comparison - lets look at Mason Cox and the ability of "Football IQ".
His progress arc in Football IQ could be easily compared to Kirby and Fitness:
2 years ago, Mason's FIQ was basically zero. Fair to say that Kirbys fitness on entering our program was pretty much the same.
Last season - Mason's FIQ was probably still the worst in the league, but he had made huge progress. This season he continued to make improvements, and now we are confident enough that this will keep improving that it will support the other skills he has to be a quality AFL player (enough so that the club gave him a 3yr deal).

Just replace Football IQ with Fitness and that is the kind of arc I would like to see from Kayle - he just needs to keep putting the work in.

And before you say that I shouldnt be comparing him to a guy who's never played AFL footy before, I would suggest that Kayle may be a guy who has never seen what professional level fitness looks like before. Hes coming from just as far behind the pack as Mason was.

You’re joking yes? Everything in terms of Kirby’s fitness is to the extreme in the negative a point you seem incapable of acknowledging so I’m out.

 

[DraftBalta]

He could have come back ripped if he really wanted it

It's disappointing because as talented as he is that talent won't be enough

 

[Darkyprotector]

The game does naturally need to re-adjust more toward footballers than athletes, IMO, but in order to keep up at AFL level and not be gassed 10 minutes into matches you need to have some level of AFL fitness. This result suggests Kirby is still a very long way off that.

It’s the same for guys that are slow through the midfield. Even if you can win the ball with the best of them if you’re bottom 1% for speed league wide, let alone by position, you will struggle.

Yeah he certainly needs improvement , but in early days Cyril did too even after a few years at Scotch
And a much more pro setting
He's a impact player like Cyril , his off season break will be the critical test.
My call he showed commitment to get this far, he ran of the rails with the turtles and recovered
Lets hope he hangs with the right crew

 

[Lefthanded]

Mazzarjo
Neil, I'd ask you to get your new friend Geoff to organise reports that KK just ran a 7min 2km so your thread doesn't get further derailed but that would just lead to melts in other threads when he's not getting selected as early as we'd like. If only KK was younger there'd still be time (that's sarcasm folks, I know he's only 19.)

 

[Darkyprotector]

I asked about Grundy, because I remember he was miles off the pace in the time trials in his first two preseaso. I'm genuinely curious about Grundy's times in his first two preseasons to see if Kirby being so far off the pace is unprecedented or not.

Grundys was low as he played basketball mainly
Didn't play a lot of footy till under 18s

 

[ClaytonM]

Grundys was low as he played basketball mainly
Didn't play a lot of footy till under 18s

Yeah cause those basketballers are fat, slow and unfit.

 

[jackcass]

Yeah cause those basketballers are fat, slow and unfit.

No, that's the soccer players boosting participation rates.

 

[Horaceg]

Can't wait until Kirby sticks it up a few of the keyboard warriors, dare say he's already made it further than anyone here.

Apart from you Bucks, I know you read BF. Don't worry Kirby will be fine and has time for his fitness base to catch up with his talent.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

You’re joking yes? Everything in terms of Kirby’s fitness is to the extreme in the negative a point you seem incapable of acknowledging so I’m out.

 

[DraftBalta]

This is the attitude Kirbs needs

Two weeks in + @brayden_maynard is yet to take a backwards step.


"Keep pushing yourself and pushing yourself til you can't physically do anymore then you'll get the rewards" Maynard.

 

[ClaytonM]

This is the attitude Kirbs needs

Two weeks in + @brayden_maynard is yet to take a backwards step.


"Keep pushing yourself and pushing yourself til you can't physically do anymore then you'll get the rewards" Maynard.

Unless ‘can’t do anymore’ means you have broken down. Dedication and hard work is great, but there is a fine line that shouldn’t be crossed.

 

[Fruit]

We need to stop making excuses for players if we want to drive a culture of striving to be the best we can be. Kirby will always be down he back but we shouldn't accept that he shouldn't have presented in better condition than what he has.