McPhee

[Clay Davis]

Just do a search for threads started by Clay Davis.

Key words- 'Picking Ibbotson was a mistake'

It's some of your best work Clay.

And what is wrong with the views expressed therein?

Ibbotson ain't a young player. He was drafted in 2005. He has had five preseasons now. Gets none of the patience that players who've had two preseasons (Suban and Hill) get.

Axe to grind or reasonable assessment? If you had a problem with the Ibbotson thread, you should have said so in the thread.

 

[Sman-21]

Doesnt matter how many preseasons they have had its all because of what they bring to the table.
Dont care if Hills had 10preseasons and Ibbo 1, I will still give Hill more chances than Ibbo to prove himself before wanting him dropped.

Hill on his day is a gamebreaker
Suban on his day is a devastastating kick and disposal gatherer.
Thats why when they have bad games people are softer on them.

Nothing to do with whipping boy etc

Ibbo isnt a devastating kick, is more of a cheap kick getter, on his day his best is only enough to keep him in the 22.
Thats why when he has a bad game people criticise him because what he adds to the team could be done just aswell by a guy like pearce,hinkley,schammer etc etc.

Im not saying he should be dropped and dont agree he is soft, just giving a reason why when he has a bad one he is treated differently to a suban,hill etc.

 

[prattsta]

And what is wrong with the views expressed therein?

Ibbotson ain't a young player. He was drafted in 2005. He has had five preseasons now. Gets none of the patience that players who've had two preseasons (Suban and Hill) get.

I understand that and you're correct, he should be held to higher standards than Hill and Suban. Just like Grover should be held to higher standards than Silvagni, and Pavlich should be held to higher standards than Sibosado. Age and experience certainly plays it's part when you judge players.

However, Ibbotson is still only 22 - he's only 8 months older than Chris Mayne - and as yet hasn't even played 50 games. 5 pre-seasons or not, he's inexperienced. It was a Friday night game - probably the biggest game of his career - he'd just spent 5 weeks on the sidelines with an injury and you started a thread to let everyone know how 'shithouse' you think he is.

Axe to grind or reasonable assessment? If you had a problem with the Ibbotson thread, you should have said so in the thread.

I wouldn't of even looked at the thread had I not agreed with the title. I tend to stay away from the hysterical post game rants.

When you start creating threads on everyone who has an average game; and 14 disposals (8 contested), 4 tackles and 1 goal is an average game, not a terrible one, I'll start taking them as reasonable assessments. Until then, I'll put you in the same boat as all the other Mundy is soft, Sandilands is useless, Palmer can't kick, Duffield is a WAFL player, Hasleby is too slow reactionaries on this board.

 

[prattsta]

Doesnt matter how many preseasons they have had its all because of what they bring to the table.
Dont care if Hills had 10preseasons and Ibbo 1, I will still give Hill more chances than Ibbo to prove himself before wanting him dropped.

Hill on his day is a gamebreaker
Suban on his day is a devastastating kick and disposal gatherer.
Thats why when they have bad games people are softer on them.

Nothing to do with whipping boy etc

Ibbo isnt a devastating kick, is more of a cheap kick getter, on his day his best is only enough to keep him in the 22.
Thats why when he has a bad game people criticise him because what he adds to the team could be done just aswell by a guy like pearce,hinkley,schammer etc etc.

Im not saying he should be dropped and dont agree he is soft, just giving a reason why when he has a bad one he is treated differently to a suban,hill etc.

Actually, that's exactly what it is, you just explained it perfectly. Some players are given a free ride when they don't perform and others aren't.

 

[Clay Davis]

I understand that and you're correct, he should be held to higher standards than Hill and Suban. Just like Grover should be held to higher standards than Silvagni, and Pavlich should be held to higher standards than Sibosado. Age and experience certainly plays it's part when you judge players.

However, Ibbotson is still only 22 - he's only 8 months older than Chris Mayne - and as yet hasn't even played 50 games. 5 pre-seasons or not, he's inexperienced. It was a Friday night game - probably the biggest game of his career - he'd just spent 5 weeks on the sidelines with an injury and you started a thread to let everyone know how 'shithouse' you think he is.

He has been shithouse this year. People were saying so in the NAB, and his form had not improved. Many were saying that he would have to improve on last year in order to to take the step up to a senior midfielder.

Instead, players have gone past him. Fyfe outclasses him in every stat and already averages more tackles over his short career than Ibbotson has over his. Barlow is only a year older, in his first season and showing more. Palmer is coming back from a serious injury and doing more.

Ibbotson was selected straight back into the side in the same way that you expect a best 18 player would be. He is far from being a best 18 player.

I wouldn't of even looked at the thread had I not agreed with the title. I tend to stay away from the hysterical post game rants.

When you start creating threads on everyone who has an average game; and 14 disposals (8 contested), 4 tackles and 1 goal is an average game, not a terrible one, I'll start taking them as reasonable assessments. Until then, I'll put you in the same boat as all the other Mundy is soft, Sandilands is useless, Palmer can't kick, Duffield is a WAFL player, Hasleby is too slow reactionaries on this board.

We were beaten by Collingwood players running hard ahead of the ball, and Ibbotson showed no desperation, as a midfielder, to get back and cover them. He was slow, casual, and was effectively dead weight in the team.

He doesn't run hard the other way. He lacks intensity. Stats don't tell this. But even on stats, he is way behind players who are at a similar level or earlier in their development.

 

[prattsta]

He has been shithouse this year. People were saying so in the NAB, and his form had not improved. Many were saying that he would have to improve on last year in order to to take the step up to a senior midfielder.

Instead, players have gone past him. Fyfe outclasses him in every stat and already averages more tackles over his short career than Ibbotson has over his. Barlow is only a year older, in his first season and showing more. Palmer is coming back from a serious injury and doing more.

Ibbotson was selected straight back into the side in the same way that you expect a best 18 player would be. He is far from being a best 18 player.

We were beaten by Collingwood players running hard ahead of the ball, and Ibbotson showed no desperation, as a midfielder, to get back and cover them. He was slow, casual, and was effectively dead weight in the team.

He doesn't run hard the other way. He lacks intensity. Stats don't tell this. But even on stats, he is way behind players who are at a similar level or earlier in their development.

I agree, he hasn't met our expectations this season. He's playing in a different role though, which is why I guess I'm willing to cut him some slack.

To me I see it more like the Mundy situation of the past two seasons. The coaches have a role in mind for him and there's no point him learning it in the WAFL. I mean there must be a reason the coaches continue to pick him and bring him straight back into the 22 after 5 weeks off with injury right?

Should he have been selected to play against Collingwood? Probably not, he didn't seem up to it. By that same standard though, Suban shouldn't have been selected against Sydney. Which brings me back to my original comment about people playing favorites. I mean if Hinkley had come into the team and played like Suban would he have escaped criticism?

Look, I guess I just think if you're going to create and/or contribute to a thread bagging a player, then you should try and be even across the entire team with your criticisms. Whether Hayden turns it over or McPhee turns it over it's still a turnover. People will always play favorites, I just wish they'd be more honest about it. If you think McPhee is shit, you're going to notice his mistakes, if you think Palmer can't kick, you're going to notice his turnovers.

 

[purplefrog]

Ibbotson like Mcphee should be close to spending a short stint in the WAFL.
Mind you for 2 very different reasons.
Mcphee tries hard and at present his skills let him down.
Ibbotson does not try hard all the time even though he has the better skills.

 

[hoss]

Dunno, whilst McPhee does have the equal highest number of clangers for the season (equal with Duffman) his disposal is better than most. By most I mean his DE is higher than Hase, Hilly, 211, Pav, Suban, Ibbo, Mundy, Mora, Barlow, de Boer, Palmer, Frodo, etc etc

Given he has a very high ratio of contested to uncontested possessions thats pretty good. Interestingly players like Broughton and Duffield gather about 1 contested possession to 4 uncontested.

He works hard in the clinches, being 3rd in the team over the season in tackles and 4th in frees for.

Stats aren't everything, and while McPhee's performances so far have been far from excellent, they haven't been quite so bad as people think.

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

So what you're saying is, it's okay to criticise Ibbotson in his first game back from injury, but not Suban? That sounds a lot like the 'whipping boy' mentality I was responding to in the post you quoted.

Nope. After the game against Collingwood, an Ibbo gtfoetc thread popped up, and i said something along the lines of, he's just had 6 weeks off, I don't think we could expect much more. That doesn't sound at all to me like the 'whipping boy mentality', allthough, i certainly could be wrong.

Perhaps you would like to have a look at the Ibbo thread yourself if you don't believe me.

Another
Determiner Pronoun

One more person or thing or an extra amount.

e.g Suban had an ordinary game against Essendon, he also had another poor game against Sydney.

Inferring that the poor form of Hill, and 'heck' especially Suban, is worthy of criticism, perhaps moreso than Ibbo's. I disagreed.

As i said, I don't think that 'another' is an accurate description to use with regards to Suban's performances this year. If a player is tagged out of, and has little impact on the game, and so does his opponent, I dont necessarily see that as a poor game, as he has broken even with his opponent. Coming out of a contest breaking even, is a fair game, not bad.

If Crowley had 0 touches, and restricted Ablett to 0 touches, is that a poor game by Crowley? Who are you to say that perhaps Suban wasn't allocated a task to minimise his opponents impact on the game, at the expense of his own?

I thought it was pretty straight forward. Anyway, as I said to Lach we can continue this in one of the numerous threads dedicated to Suban's poor game on Saturday. They shouldn't be too hard to find - I found the Ibbotson threads from Friday nights game easy enough - since we're all for fair critical debate on this board...

From memory, the majority of posters in that thread weren't happy with Ibbo's attack on the man and ball, and perhaps his work rate. I think that is fair enough, as I personally think Ibbo has significant improving to do in those areas of the game. One thing you could certainly never question Suban for, is his work rate, his desire to attack the man, and the ball.

The fact that people chose to create threads disapproving of Ibbo, rather than Suban, may perhaps tell you what qualities our supporters value in a player, and what performances they do not accept.

I never said anything about dropping Suban or Hill.

Never said you did.

Everyone who gets stuck into McPhee, Ibbotson, Hinkley etc claim they don't have an axe to grind and that they're just being critical of the players performances. The problem is, when you overlook 90% of the playing list in your critical assessments, after a while it starts to look like a witch hunt.[/quote]

I agree.

 

[23cmonShane!]

Dunno, whilst McPhee does have the equal highest number of clangers for the season (equal with Duffman) his disposal is better than most. By most I mean his DE is higher than Hase, Hilly, 211, Pav, Suban, Ibbo, Mundy, Mora, Barlow, de Boer, Palmer, Frodo, etc etc

Given he has a very high ratio of contested to uncontested possessions thats pretty good. Interestingly players like Broughton and Duffield gather about 1 contested possession to 4 uncontested.

He works hard in the clinches, being 3rd in the team over the season in tackles and 4th in frees for.

Stats aren't everything, and while McPhee's performances so far have been far from excellent, they haven't been quite so bad as people think.

Agreed

 

[Kickett Punches Read]

whats most annoying about threads like this at this particular point, is that we are 7-2!!!!!! 7 fuking 2!!!!!!....... guys, any one of us would have taken that at the start of the year. every player has his part to play in the team, and currently our TEAM is performing magnificently, why do we have to go on a witch hunt every week? especially after we have just knocked off SYDNEY IN SYDNEY!!!!

 

[purplefrog]

whats most annoying about threads like this at this particular point, is that we are 7-2!!!!!! 7 fuking 2!!!!!!....... guys, any one of us would have taken that at the start of the year. every player has his part to play in the team, and currently our TEAM is performing magnificently, why do we have to go on a witch hunt every week? especially after we have just knocked off SYDNEY IN SYDNEY!!!!

My personal view is that whilst I'm absolutely wrapped with our efforts so far IF there is a way to improve the team even further why not explore those possiblities in a healthy debate. After all isn't that what these forums are about?
I do detect sometimes some supporters have an agenda with certain players but for me at the start of the season all players are equal and there performance be it good or bad attracts either criticism or praise.

 

[NoobHunter15]

McPhee is going to put in an absolute shocker of a performance in the finals and then ull realise you have to carry him through another 2 finals campaigns.

Reminds me vividly of my WAAFL captain 2 years ago. Great body, professionalism and attitude, but hardly any natural footballing ability to back it up.

 

[EastcoastDocker]

Having watched mcphee for the first time as a docker on sat I would just like to say that atleast u know mcphee is out there. When he has a bad game he still puts his body on the line and gets a decent amount of ball. Come finals time hes not gonna play any worse. He's not gonna go missing ala some former dockers. He may very well play shyte. But he wont go AWOL

 

[prattsta]

Nope. After the game against Collingwood, an Ibbo gtfoetc thread popped up, and i said something along the lines of, he's just had 6 weeks off, I don't think we could expect much more. That doesn't sound at all to me like the 'whipping boy mentality', allthough, i certainly could be wrong.

Perhaps you would like to have a look at the Ibbo thread yourself if you don't believe me.

Then why would you quote my post? I was simply using Hill and Suban as a couple of examples of a young players who played a poorly on the weekend yet received none of the criticism that is directed at others. Seems to me like we're making the same argument.

Inferring that the poor form of Hill, and 'heck' especially Suban, is worthy of criticism, perhaps moreso than Ibbo's. I disagreed.

I don't think any of them deserved criticism - Hill was tagged and playing on a ground the size of a telephone box. Suban hadn't played at AFL level in a month - my point was simply if Ibbo deserved criticism for his performance the week before (which IMO he didn't) then several other players should cop the same.

As i said, I don't think that 'another' is an accurate description to use with regards to Suban's performances this year. If a player is tagged out of, and has little impact on the game, and so does his opponent, I dont necessarily see that as a poor game, as he has broken even with his opponent. Coming out of a contest breaking even, is a fair game, not bad.

If a player is tagged out of the game and has zero impact, then he's had a poor game. Maybe that player worked hard, maybe he did the best he could, but it doesn't change the fact that he had no impact.

If Crowley had 0 touches, and restricted Ablett to 0 touches, is that a poor game by Crowley? Who are you to say that perhaps Suban wasn't allocated a task to minimise his opponents impact on the game, at the expense of his own?

Out of interest, who was Suban's opponent? In a similar vein, what exactly is Ibbo's role this season, who are we to say he isn't executing it perfectly?

As for the Crowley example, yes shutting down GA would be an impressive job, at the same time we're not necessarily gaining anything from it. We're essentially playing with 21 and so are Geelong. If you're tagging, just stopping your opponent isn't enough these days, you need to make a positive contribution as well.

From memory, the majority of posters in that thread weren't happy with Ibbo's attack on the man and ball, and perhaps his work rate. I think that is fair enough, as I personally think Ibbo has significant improving to do in those areas of the game. One thing you could certainly never question Suban for, is his work rate, his desire to attack the man, and the ball.

I don't think questioning Ibbo's work rate after the Collingwood game was fair enough. Just like I don't think questioning Suban's after the Sydney game would be fair either, which, again, is why I used it as an example.

As for his attack on the ball/man it certainly could improve at times.

The fact that people chose to create threads disapproving of Ibbo, rather than Suban, may perhaps tell you what qualities our supporters value in a player, and what performances they do not accept.

Which has been my point all along.

...but the point is that we easily overlook some peoples errors and go hell for leather on whoever happens to be the whipping boy.

You only have to look at the criticism directed at Ibbotson last week, compared to the rapid carpet sweeping going on in relation to Hill's game on Saturday. Heck, Suban had another poor game on the weekend and it's not even mentioned.

Hill and Suban are understandably two of Fremantle's favorites. Ibbotson is not. That's certainly not the only reason Ibbotson has copped criticism this season, but it certainly contributes, to some of, what I would call unfair criticism.

Look, everyone loves hard players, it's why Adam Campbell had fans. I get that, I mean he couldn't play, but he sure crashed the packs. Ibbotson isn't Dean Solomon, but he's not expected to be, just like Mundy never was. What he can do though - when he's on - makes up for what he lacks though. If it didn't, the coaches wouldn't persist with him.

Never said you did.

You asked who we would replace them with if we dropped them.

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

The point is, our supporters aren't interested in players who don't leave it all on the field. For a player who is apparantly one of the top few runners at our club (apparantly olympic quality), he is very good at strolling about the park.

I personally don't expect him to chop out 30 touches, but I do expect him to push his body as far as he can on field. I don't think he does that. Most supporters probably agree. They would probably also agree that Hill and Suban do, this is why they are treated preferrentially.

Is it right to appraise a players performance as acceptable, if they have little impact on the game, but work their balls off? I don't know, but i'd chose someone with a little more heart and little less skill, than a player with more skill and less heart, any day of the week.

I don't agree with the 21 man thing. If one of your average players, manages to have the same output and influence on a game as the oppositions best, in my opinion, that is an outright victory in that position.

I don't think Ibbo deserved the heat he copped for the Collingwood game, we both agree on that, but I think that the criticism he has recieved over the years, and still does now in some cases, is warranted, and does not apply to some of our other players, and rightfully so.

 

[el jefe]

As a shining example of the 'I don't really understand football' brigade I'd suggest the only time you'll ever commend McPhee's game is when threatened with a soldering iron up the jacksie.

Geez you can be a self-righteous so and so.

Here are a few of my earlier comments on McPhee, and I will gladly compliment his game when he doesn't cough up goals and fumble like he has parkinsons.

McPhee was getting scapegoated in a big way at the game, he didn't play too badly. The behaviour from some of our members towards him was pretty disgusting.

McPhee has been getting better each week, the only problem is he started from such a low base that it will be months before he actually plays a good game.

The positives of his game are that his set shot for goal is solid and he adds value when he doesn't have the ball with 1%ers. I'd give downhill des the chop before McPhee. Fyfe could do what Des does and more.

Now back to ralph.

The indisputable fact is we have been winning games when McPhee, and a lesser extent De Boer are in the side.

Who is disputing that fact?

And I'm a massive fan of de Boer. I guess you're just trying to pigeonhole me as someone who goes out of their way to bag players.

These players have roles to play and they play them and it contributes to us winning.

No shit.

McPhee has now played two really good games out of three, and he was serviceable against Collingwood. We beat Sydney because of our tackling pressure and McPhee had 10 tackles.

Wow, he had a couple of slightly above average games, personally I think that should be expected from an experienced player, but you're spruiking it as some kind of big achievement which proves all the doubters wrong. Sorry, but it doesn't.

McPhee is a first 18 player and the rest of you who don't think that will either have to adjust your thinking or suck it up.

More self-righteousness.

Or pick on someone who deserves it like Ibbotson. He has all the intensity of a doped-up hippie and only lays tackles when he accidentally gets in someone's way. James Walker Mark II.

Oh, so its ok to pick on Ibbo, but not McPhee. Ibbotson is a first 18 player and the rest of you who don't think that will either have to adjust your thinking or suck it up.

I think we will get better yet, especially at home. Close to the business end though we might tire and get worked out. McPhee will be important then. Can't wait to see him start holding his marks.

Yep, I agree with this.

 

[hoss]

So everyone agrees McPhee has been better than Ibbo. Good. Me too!

 

[purplefrog]

So everyone agrees McPhee has been better than Ibbo. Good. Me too!

Marginally yes.
Both have been bad but in different ways.
Mcphee has a go and stuffs it up.
Ibbo doesn't have a go and most times (be that not too many) does'nt stuff it up.
Mcphee in front by a nose.

 

[estibador]

Credit where it's due - I thought today was easily McPhee's best game for the club.

Kept the stuff ups to a minimum and did a lot of good work in the backline at times.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Better in the second half but was the same old McPhee in the first half. Stays in the team due to lack of talls.

 

[malpaso]

Better in the second half but was the same old McPhee in the first half. Stays in the team due to lack of talls.

Muppet.

He wasn't in the team in the first place to play tall and he's not in there now due to lack of talls.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Muppet.

He wasn't in the team in the first place to play tall and he's not in there now due to lack of talls.

So what is a 190cm player in the team for? Other than kicking it OOF or turning it over.

 

[malpaso]

So what is a 190cm player in the team for? Other than kicking it OOF or turning it over.

Well gee he's either 2nd or 3rd on the team in tackles (led the team today) not something you associate with a tall.

Tackle Count
-------------
49 - Crowley
47 - Barlow
47 - McPhee

 

[DockerLand1]

So what is a 190cm player in the team for? Other than kicking it OOF or turning it over.

Come on Brades, give the man some credit. He was a good performer today. You dont hate Keplar as well do you???