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I think the kicker would be the possession stat, we’re scoring around the same with probably much less of the ball.
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Toast McRae era (2022-) = see OP
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Fair enough. It's all subjective as far as taste is concerned. As I said, I have no issue with low scoring contests if the intent to score is obvious and teams are taking each other on as we did on Monday. My recollection of that game was that our scoring options dried up ( a repeating pattern in the final Buckley years) after another blistering start and my frustration was real. The Cats definitely had a sniff late and I recall a brilliant smother by Jamie Elliott stopping what looked like a genuine scoring opportunity. The momentum was all the Cats way. The prelim was a shocker even given our genuinely surprising comeback when all seemed lost. That was the game in which Grundy dropped the pill at his feet all night in wet. slippery conditions. Another frustrating feature of that game!
Heater3923
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I can’t believe I’m delving into this nightmare again… but here we are…
It’s a bit of a reach to quote average scores. Averages can be misleading.
In 2019, after 12 rounds - Collingwood scored 1104 points. Average of 92 per game.
Collingwood was 2nd on the ladder. Sitting on 9 wins and 3 losses. While we did beat some top 8 teams - we also beat teams after round 6 that would finish 10th, 14th, 16th and 17th. We also lost to 13th.
For the next 12 rounds - Collingwood scored 781 points. That’s an average of 65 points a game for the 2nd half of the year when a top 4 side is meant to launch into the stratosphere.
Our second half of 2019 putrid. Pure and simple. We couldn’t move the ball. We lost all sense of quality football after Rhyce Shaws gameplan NMFC ripped us apart. Then teams just copied it.
So when Collingwood was supposedly flying in the first 12 weeks of 2019 and a premiership contender 2nd on the ladder coming off a GF… we scored 1104.
Fast fwd to a Collingwood team in 2022 that’s come from 17th (it’s lowest position in 130 years) and it’s 9th having scored 1116 and is 8 and 5 after beating 2nd, 3rd and 4th in consecutive weeks.
Yeah i really can’t say 2019 was the year of the magpie or exciting to watch. That second half of the year was an abomination.
The geelong game was putrid from both teams and I knew GWS would roll us with an NEAFL side - all week me and my pies mate were seriously “Naffans gonna choke gws are gonna bring it and heaters gonna get ‘em fired up to play finals footy and we’re gonna fall back on possession footy and finesse s**t”. We saw it coming a mile off.
I even put $50 on GWS at $4.50. That’s how certain I was we would choke under Naffan. It paid a quarter of my Legends membership in 2019 - so considering I squandered over $10,000 on Legend members fees over Naffans “rain of terror”, at least I learnt something and offset some of the cost in 2019. Which is more than I can ever say for Naffan. The blokes never learnt a single thing in his life, other than “more is the answer” and F*** I’m Good Just Ask Me” oh and “I read a book about broken Japanese pottery I’m so enlightened now”…
His constant public dismissal of Malthouse is petulant. The guy has the third best coaching record at Collingwood (behind McHale and Keane). That’s not even considering what he did at WCE, FFC and Carlton. Look it up, he’s the only coach in VFL/AFL to coach all four clubs he coached to win finals. But that’s Buckley for ya, he knows better than everyone, especially Malthouse, actually the bloke never even talks about what he learnt from Matthews or Cahill for that matter. Just kissed on the dick and born with knowing better than all the best coaches in AFL history I guess.
If you’ve bothered to read the earth is slow but the ox is patient by MM and Buttifant - you’d realise MM has forgotten more about football and coaching teams than Buckley will ever know. Bucks is absolutely clueless when it comes to building and leading elite teams.
Anyways, look I can justifiably and rationally rip the Naffan era year by year, moment by moment, there were that many mistakes from day one…Despite what Naffan tries to project in the media - it was so pathetic an era it’s easy money for me to critique.
It supposedly took him 7 years what Fly has achieved in just about 7 months (a team that went up the ladder and was unified). Think about how pathetic that is. If that were any other club we’d still be laughing at them. And as soon as he reached in 2018, by June 2019 it was back to 2012-2016 levels of trash.
He even said it on SEN, they lost coaching personnel during COVID that he relied on (Hocking and Longmuire) and they couldn’t recover from it. Every club felt the punch from covid. But Collingwood disintegrated due to the head coach never having been up for the job in the first place.
I don’t think Buckley achieved even close to what Fly has in his time at Collingwood - which is the goal of all coaches - to maximise the output of the playing group regardless of the talent levels. Buckley never did it. Had he done that, we are top 4 from 2016 (Pert said in 2014 the goal was a flag by 2017) and with the midfield we had make and most likely win 2 GFs from 2016.
Had Buckley been able to maximise the midfield talent, we talking back to back flags in 2017 and 18. At the very least we comfortably beat WCE on our home deck. It’s called underachievement.
So anyway, my point is that the football of 2019 was overwhelmingly putrid for the talent level in the playing group.
But maybe as you say my type is hard to please, but have you ever considered you are a type that is far too easily pleased?
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- May 18, 2022
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The problem with Collingwood was culture. Drug use was rife, players were not happy and people wanted out. Buckley was up to it - but they butchered his apprenticeship. That list needed experience, not a young coach. Craig McRae has done a much better apprenticeship and learnt lessons the hard way. He's a quite bloke which helps and I haven't read any negative or critical articles about him beyond what you'd expect to read for any AFL coach.
2019 was a wasted year because the style of footy didn't match the rules (attacking is the primary focus of rule changing and it's no secret the AFL loathe teams that score 50 points a game) and in 2020, he had no clue of what to do despite the strong start. By 2021, he knew his time was up.
Who they replaced was the smartest move I've seen. By choosing a coach with no name, no stigma, not that much of a story beyond he won three flags was elite and the fact he's a Richmond stud operator means that the media have more sympathy. We could yet win this year's flag.
You backed up my gut response to 2019 with statistics. Glad to see I wasn't hallucinating for much of Bucks reign.
Gone Critical
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I won't get involved in your discussion of Buckley the man other than to say your criticism of a Collingwood legend is shrill and biased in my opinion.
However the stats you have used to make a case are paper thin and have some major faults. For your arithmetic Collingwood played the 1st 12 games with 1104 points at 92 per game. However there were only 10 games not 12 left so the 781 points we scored at an average of 78 points per game. As to the NM match leading to a major change we were 87 points average up to NM and then 82 after. Not so massive. Still these stats can be better analysed in the context of 2018 to 2019 which has been my main contention.
2018 we got a draw from heaven and maximised our benefits while struggling against our fellow top 8 sides. Could have been characterised as flat track bullies in the H&A. 2019 we got a tough draw but had learnt and matured and were able to match and better our fellow top 8 sides. This is reflected in wins , points scored and %'s. 2019 was a much tougher season so it was good we were a considerably better side. This rise really began in the 2018 finals series where we stepped our performance way up compared to what we had done in the H&A.
These are the figures.
In 2018 we had 14 H&A matches v sides outside the 8 and won all 14. Our average points scored were 102 with 68 against for a % of 150.7
In 2018 we had 8 matches against sides in the 8 and only won 1. Our average points scored were 76 with 93 against and a % of 81.6
In 2018 our double up matches were against sides that finished 5, 11, 14, 15 and 18 on the ladder
In 2019 we had 11 games against sides outside the 8 and won 8. Our average points scored were 89 with 67 against and a % of 131
In 2019 we had 11 games against sides in the 8 and won 7. Our average points scored were 82 with 78 against and a % of 104
In 2019 our double up games were against sides that finished 3,5,7,8 and 17 on the ladder.
I think with this analysis its very hard to make a case we were a better side in 2018. A perception of that comes from the free flowing play we saw because we had a lot more easier games against lesser teams in 2018. We couldnt get it done against the better sides though
It was 2018 finals where the change really started and I do agree the 2018 finals series was a better effort by us than the 2019 finals. I also think playing a lot more tougher games in 2019 meant were were probably a bit flatter in the lesser matches whereas in 18 we were more likley to put lesser sides to the sword due to our easy draw and not having to get up for tough matches as often. 2018 turned out to be a draw of rare benefit and we maximised our gains by not losing to teams outside the 8
As to not being pleased i wonder how long you will stay on Flys bandwagon if we have a bit of a struggle during his tenure. He is doing fantastically currently with a mature experienced 22 but if , when the kids come in in bigger numbers to the 22, we need to reboot a bit will you consider that and allow him to rebuild. I will
Take a deep breath. So emotional. Shrill? I love Buckley the player and he seems to be a lovely bloke. Why are you assuming I hate him or have an agenda because I found his defensive mindset very unattractive to watch in too many games throughout his tenure
Stats lie. Ask Cox about numbers. I have no bucks agenda. It is simply my opinion when I say I find Fly's approach a breath of fresh air and going to watch my team far more enjoyable. If you care to scroll through past posts you will find me saying how happy I was with our progress after three straight losses because I enjoyed watching us play! Something I haven't been able to say for some time.
I have a feeling we might stumble against the Giants. So I'm not blindly waffling due to the intoxication of four thrilling wins on the trot
Bucks loved dour defense. Fly likes risk taking and flair. Take your pick. I prefer the latter approach.
Heater3923
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I did it at the time, I did it week after from the loss against the swans in like round 20 2015. That’s when I cracked it and went enough is enough. Firstly on Nicks Bulliten board and then on here before getting banned cause my posts were too “negative”. I got accused of vendettas and having mental health issues (haha well that may hold some truth haha) but I was 100% right. I’m Randy Quade in Independence Day I guess haha
I remember back in like 2014 or so Bucks was on the weekly pies docos with Trevor Hendy as his mentor ffs. Never played a team sport in his life. Has no idea how to maximise the talent of a group of young men. And bucks was seriously saying to him words to the affect of “see mate this is why I need ya, I need to be able to get the best out of people”. Hendy wouldn’t have a clue.
Instead of reading the ox is slow but the earth is patient or Craig Bellamy’s biography, Bucks turns to an Ironman and Olympic kayaker to teach him how to maximise the output of a group of 40 plus young man. It’s absurd how s**t Buckley was. It should be the basis for a sequel to “The Club”.
Fly takes over, says I know what I’m doing cause I won three flags as a lion, I’ve learnt from Matthews, I’ve learnt from Malthouse, developed kids for years, coached a VFL premiership and also learnt under Clarko. Fly says from day 1 - we will be a contested possession, territory based side. We will attack more and play in the front half. We’ll have flare and more inside 50s.
We are 13 rounds in and it’s just tick tick tick. Fly sets goals and achieves them.
Buckley struggled to even tell us what his gameplan was. In simple terms, Buckley never could say what our gameplan was or fix the glaring issues - that I whinged about for years and surprise surprise ended costing us 2018 and 2019 premierships.
Who here remembers his “shape and grunt” speech at the AGM or members forum in like 2016? It was hilarious. He talked down to us all like we were clueless idiots lecturing the faithful about “shape and grunt” and looking down his nose at us? He still never could explain in a simple way how he would fix our flaws. Because he doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing.
There are so many great things about fly. One is he always references the fans and supporters. He knows he has to communicate to us and reassure us. Never talks down to us and says in basic terms - this was our problem this week, the coaches did x y and z to rectify it the following week. He even said his gameplan is not hard and it’s simple. Buckley pretended you needed to be a Rhodes scholar to understand his genius. Talk about head up his ass.
And the best thing about Fly is he knows his limits. On Anzac round he just went “the best guy to get my playing group up to beat Essendon this week is Malthouse”. He doesn’t have an Ego. Fly just wants to win, he wants Collingwood to win and will use everything as his disposal to achieve it.
I mean seriously, we weren’t even that good in 2018. We had an easy draw having finished 13th.
We lost:
Hawthorn (4), GWS (7), Geelong (8), Richmond (1) x 2, West Coast (2) (on MCG) and Sydney (6).
We beat:
Carlton (18) x 2, Adelaide (12), Essendon (11) x 2, Brisbane (15) x 2, St Kilda (16), FFC (13), Fremantle (14) x 2, Melbourne (5), GC (17), NMFC (9) and Port (10)
So in 2018 we were:
- top 8 sides 1-7
- bottom 8 sides 14-0.
That’s not a good side by any stretch of the imagination. That’s an underachieving top 8 side. Especially with the list at Buckleys disposal.
Then finals - lost to WCE twice (3 for the year and twice on MCG against a side that couldn’t win there for years). Not good enough. Choked on the biggest stage.
From the 20 min mark or so of the 1st, west coast kick something like 11.9.75 to 6.7.43. We got belted for 3/4s of the GF. Had Darling not dropped a sitter on the goal line it’s a 10 point loss and a 39 point turn around from the 1st qtr. It’s not good enough. It’s wildly mediocre.
We should have belted GWS and didn’t. Perhaps the Buckley eras best ever game was against Richmond in the Preliminary final. The other game he loves to tout was the WCE final in 2020.
Credit where it’s due - well done Naffan you got the group to perform to its maximum potential maybe twice in 218 games of coaching. Bravo sir. I tip my cap.
But then it’s back to type vs WCE and Geelong the very next week. Crashing out with a lose that should never have happened vs WCE on our home deck and getting obliterated by the Cats in an embarrassment.
This idea we were a great footy side under Naffan in 2018/19 is a fraud. We weren’t. We lucked out. In 2018 we went 14-0 vs bottom 8 clubs to sneak into the top 4. We went 1-7 vs top 8 clubs.
Including finals we went 3-9 vs Top 8 clubs. Thats a 25% win rate vs top 8 clubs for 2018. It’s s**t. And all our failings were laid to bear in the GF and PF in 2019.
You know what our win rate against Top 8 sides so far in 2022 is?
Four wins three losses. A 57% win rate vs top 8 sides.
Compare that with 2018, Naffans “best year” which we were 25% win rate vs Top 8 sides.
Flys 57% vs Top 8 sides is far superior. He’s in his first year with a side that hasn’t got the talent or age profile of 2018 and finished 17th just 9 months ago.
It’s laughable Naffan even gets a job in the media. Like I always said, give the list Naffan had to a bloke that knows what he was doing and we’d have had another flag from the 2010-11 playing group (Freo had the exact same game plan we had in 2013 and choked vs HFC). Had we had a bloke that knew what he was doing we would have got 2 x flags from the 2016-2020 list. We seriously pissed away 3 flags in a decade sticking with Naffan.
I can go on for ever about this topic. I can win any argument because I have facts and stats to back it up and I’m objective. It ain’t a vendetta against Bucks, it’s just pure facts. He was and is a dud coach. Flys first 13 games prove every point I’ve made about Buckley from late 2015 onwards.
Bucks was a great player, an average captain and leader, a s**t team mate to many and a dud coach. It’s just facts
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It would be excellent if we could celebrate what McRae has brought to the club without feeling the need to retrospectively pot Bucks. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
The thread is about the “McRae era” after all, and more about looking forward than back IMO.
The thread is about the “McRae era” after all, and more about looking forward than back IMO.
Heater3923
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Ain’t shrill or biased. Just based on facts.
I’ll give Fly years of support, just as I did Matthews, Shaw, Malthouse and Buckley. Until it’s blatantly obvious we need a change.
I gave Buckley from 2012 to late 2015 and saw the list and team just capitulate. Players got shafted (Shaw, Lumumba, seedsman etc and the culture was diabolical). The fall under Buckley was worse than the Shaw years.
In any event, Like I said I see a fair dinkum coach in Fly, same as I did for Malthouse. Never wanted MM sacked, stupidly trusted Ed and Pert thinking they knew what they were doing with the succession plan. Never again. A great coach is too hard to come by.
I’m a pie till I die.
And if he keeps this elite coaching going - I’m with Fly till he die
I don’t care if he’s 80. No way do we shove this bloke out the door like we did Malthouse for an unqualified coach like Buckley. Obviously, if Flys time is up and it comes to a natural conclusion - that’s fine time for a new coach - but this entitlement Buckley had to live out “his” legacy as coach -
never again… We can’t reward mediocrity like that ever again. And we need to celebrate true objective excellence, like Fly, when we see or experience it. As Matthews always said about the succession plan, never give your 16 year old the keys to your Ferrari. He always said moving on from MM was a mistake. And he was 100% right.
Also - u are right I miscalculated the averages. Like you said we went from 92 to 75 points for in the second half of the season. For a premiership contender, it’s still pathetic. It’s still failure.
As Malthouse said in his Anzac speech to the players, “it’s victory or disgrace… you’ve nowhere to hide”… And 2012-2021 was all about disgrace far more than it should have ever been about.
Like i said, looking at averages can be misleading. That NMFC game in 2019 was farcical. They tore our ball movement from half back apart.
2019 will always come back to the PF. Playing an NEAFL side in the wet on our home deck. Pantsed for 3/4s. Then choked in red time. Text book Buckley. Did it as a player (Anzac day 1995) and as a coach. It’s a wasted year as Buckley said in 2019. It’s on him
Heater3923
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Point taken. I’m happy to pump his tires all day… but if people wanna defend Bucks’ record on here I’ll pull them up on it
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Huzzah for the chef!
He has inherited a fantastic defence from bucks, and has also picked up Nick Daicos and Pat Lipinksi along with second year players like Ginnivan and mccreery. The club has also had a good run across the board with injury.
So the seeds for improvement were there for whoever took over. ( ok maybe not Ben Rutten or David Noble). McRae has just added flair to the Buckley game plan and brought back fun, run, and unpredictability.
So the seeds for improvement were there for whoever took over. ( ok maybe not Ben Rutten or David Noble). McRae has just added flair to the Buckley game plan and brought back fun, run, and unpredictability.
Felt a genuine optimism when he was announced as our new coach. It felt right* and he had an impressive CV and presence about him.
Already seems justified and he has been a breath of fresh air with style, game plan and player development showing. Long may it continue.
*many years ago when the Dons hired Sheedy I said to my Essendon mate that he would be very good for them. It felt right.
Already seems justified and he has been a breath of fresh air with style, game plan and player development showing. Long may it continue.
*many years ago when the Dons hired Sheedy I said to my Essendon mate that he would be very good for them. It felt right.
Gone Critical
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Sorry I thought my "shrill" comment would be recognised as directed at Heater3923 who I think potted Bucks personality too strongly. I included you cause you commented on his stats as backing your perception so thought you may be interested in a contrasting set of stats. Personally I think they made a good case. I havent seen anything in your posting unreasonable about Bucks just a different opinion. I am breathing well.
Gone Critical
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I agree we need to get back to Fly.Ain’t shrill or biased. Just based on facts.
I’ll give Fly years of support, just as I did Matthews, Shaw, Malthouse and Buckley. Until it’s blatantly obvious we need a change.
I gave Buckley from 2012 to late 2015 and saw the list and team just capitulate. Players got shafted (Shaw, Lumumba, seedsman etc and the culture was diabolical). The fall under Buckley was worse than the Shaw years.
In any event, Like I said I see a fair dinkum coach in Fly, same as I did for Malthouse. Never wanted MM sacked, stupidly trusted Ed and Pert thinking they knew what they were doing with the succession plan. Never again. A great coach is too hard to come by.
I’m a pie till I die.
And if he keeps this elite coaching going - I’m with Fly till he die
I don’t care if he’s 80. No way do we shove this bloke out the door like we did Malthouse for an unqualified coach like Buckley. Obviously, if Flys time is up and it comes to a natural conclusion - that’s fine time for a new coach - but this entitlement Buckley had to live out “his” legacy as coach -
As Matthews always said about the succession plan, never give your 16 year old the keys to your Ferrari. He always said moving on from MM was a mistake. And he was 100% right.
Also - u are right I miscalculated the averages. Like you said we went from 92 to 75 points for in the second half of the season. For a premiership contender, it’s still pathetic. It’s still failure.
As Malthouse said in his Anzac speech to the players, “it’s victory or disgrace… you’ve nowhere to hide”… And 2012-2021 was all about disgrace far more than it should have ever been about.
Like i said, looking at averages can be misleading. That NMFC game in 2019 was farcical. They tore our ball movement from half back apart.
2019 will always come back to the PF. Playing an NEAFL side in the wet on our home deck. Pantsed for 3/4s. Then choked in red time. Text book Buckley. Did it as a player (Anzac day 1995) and as a coach. It’s a wasted year as Buckley said in 2019. It’s on him
Just a final word. I am by no means a massive fan of Bucks the coach but I loved him as a player and he is the best I have seen at Colling after watching from the 60's. Greening would have been bar O'Dea. I differ from you in a few things is I dont think we had any real flag likely lists in his era. We see some things similar in 18 when we fluked top 4 and nearly stole a flag. I differ in we were just a bottom of the 8 list that year in my opinion. 2019 I was surprised we went so well as i thought we became a top 4 list that season but agree the finals, GWS match really, was a massive let down.
We kept Bucks too long and the effects of the disaster of 2020 off season are still to come home to roost
Fly I am loving. I am serious in my concern about whether he will get time. If we do go backwards in the seasons ahead I hope the expectations bought from this season dont count too heavily against him. I am hoping posters are aware he has gone for mature experienced 22s in 2022 so the real transition of the list and best 22 is still in its infancy. How he has bought on Ginni, Henry and McCreery and recruiting Lippa and hopefully Kreuger to fill in the age hole in the list has been really impressive. Dont be surprised though if there is a dip in seasons again when we start to play our youth more. I am hoping my concerns turn to nothing and Fly becomes the next genius but we may need to cut some slack at stages of the journey
Last minor point I didnt say you were shrill I said your criticism of Bucks was e.g. Naffan, blokes neveer leant a thing in his life except FIGJAM, he is clueless etc etc. I dont find getting personal about someone really helps when you are makimg a case, just inflames
I didn't want to pot Bucks. He made some comments on radio about McRae's current game plan so my post was directly related to the subject of this thread.
I simply disagreed with Nathan's assessment.
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Mason Cox's journey through McRae has been helped. I think his ability to play more naturally and as a ruck has helped his progression. Even his marking game has improved- thanks to sunglasses - and I want the man to leave the club as a hero. He is. I think what people don't realise is that he came into the club at a hard time after thinking he'd be a petroleum engineer for the rest of his life. He wasn't an athlete, he got a scholarship because he was tall. He moved to a new country, hasn't become homesick, got us to within five points of a flag and has produced good headlines. He's had a few bad games, yes, but every player has. He started kicking a football in 2014.
McRae can be credited a lot for sticking with Cox and helping him through his initial journey and now finding form again. He's a ruck who can play tall on a number of players. When Grundy gets back, I hope he can continue to play because we're a better side.
McRae can be credited a lot for sticking with Cox and helping him through his initial journey and now finding form again. He's a ruck who can play tall on a number of players. When Grundy gets back, I hope he can continue to play because we're a better side.
PyrrhicVic
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This man is leading us to a flag, trust the process.
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Loved everything I heard on his SEN interview. I feel like a big reason we're firing right now is that it seems McRae knows how to instill confidence and trust in the players, probably goes double for the younger boys who still need those extra layers of confidence.
We're still going to probably lose a few games we should win, have a few down performances but regardless I'm happy with the direction of the team!
We're still going to probably lose a few games we should win, have a few down performances but regardless I'm happy with the direction of the team!
Mollythedolly
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[*] Round 15 2022 = Isaac Chugg
Heater3923
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Warms the heart bringing Matthews back to the club. First it was Malthouse, now Matthews - all within his first year at the club.
Fly has such respect for the ones that achieved the ultimate success, and I love that. Having one three as a player, and one as a VFL coach, I’m sure he truly grasps the ernomity of such accomplishments.
www.sen.com.au
And it’s wonderful to see our coach truly embrace our club history and celebrate all our premiership coaches and their achievements.
As only two have done it since ‘58, it’s fantastic that our Coach reaches out to them and honours their significant parts in Collingwood’s legacy.
Love the new wallpaper in Flys office too! The absolute best of the best looking over him all day while he looks up to them - motivated each day to replicate their achievements.
Absolute class from Fly. He really is building a sustainable winning culture from the ground up.
Go Pies!
Fly has such respect for the ones that achieved the ultimate success, and I love that. Having one three as a player, and one as a VFL coach, I’m sure he truly grasps the ernomity of such accomplishments.
AFL great to address Collingwood playing group ahead of crucial GWS clash
"I’m so excited.”
And it’s wonderful to see our coach truly embrace our club history and celebrate all our premiership coaches and their achievements.
As only two have done it since ‘58, it’s fantastic that our Coach reaches out to them and honours their significant parts in Collingwood’s legacy.
Love the new wallpaper in Flys office too! The absolute best of the best looking over him all day while he looks up to them - motivated each day to replicate their achievements.
Absolute class from Fly. He really is building a sustainable winning culture from the ground up.
Go Pies!
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