Roast Media/McClure Misrepresenting Mental Mess on Mindful Camp

[John Who]

I'm as much a cynic as the next person ...but i'm an even greater cynic about how the media operates ....so i apply simple logic to most situations

It's like the FiveAA process
1. Create some scandel, via an evocative statement .....starts irate callers clogging talkback line
2. Keep adding fuel for a period of days ....till the story gets a bit jaded
3. Start to pour cold water on the situation, they created .....by asking for rationale discussion or adding an alternate argument

You can put your stop watch to it .....it's the old Newspaper scam

To be honest, I wouldn't have cared too much if McNure would have stopped after 2-3 months. But he kept on and on, to add fuel to the fire, which is what peeved me off in the latter half of the season. The act of "I'm a good hearted person, trying to investigate on the mental effects of the players because mental illness is something really important, but meanwhile I won't mind adding a whole lot of BULLSHIT to the reporting", this isn't lost on me, and I'm happy to propagate exposing him and his cohorts.

Keep McNure on his toes for 2019.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

So your suggesting that media create content be it false or true. So they can wrap it around the advertising which is their true purpose. Hmm, something to think about.

Yes i do ....isn't that what tabloid journalism is ? .....but without being definitive on true or false .....they throw out a smoldering ember ....."I've heard from a source ..." ....in that way, it's not them that said it & can't be accused

 

[WaynesWorld19]

To be honest, I wouldn't have cared too much if McNure would have stopped after 2-3 months. But he kept on and on, to add fuel to the fire, which is what peeved me off in the latter half of the season. The act of "I'm a good hearted person, trying to investigate on the mental effects of the player because mental illness is something really important, but meanwhile I won't mind adding a whole lot of BULLSHIT to the reporting", this isn't lost on me, and I'm happy to propagate exposing him and his cohorts.

Keep McNure on his toes for 2019.

Then he accuses others of being too sensationalists ......he's a chameleon

 

[Crow Envy]

I think the problem is that you and a fair few others are taking it too literally. The club did apologise they had made mistakes, which implied that things could have been done better.
What I think is going on is that you're taking the club's apology, and the reports of Media "debacle" as face value. Something along the lines of "aha! It must have been a debacle for the club to apologise!"

When in reality, the actual season itself was a debacle (from the hammy incidents). The Preseason Camp - debacle? It's implying the majority of players were a mess. 1-2 players unhappy, does not make a whole.

What I take the apology for is an apology for the lack of governance and due diligence which allowed a group who are unqualified to probe the players minds, which led to some players being upset. I dare say the apology also capture the response they received initially when the players voiced their concerns.

Remember the AFL found them guilty of this, it happened.

As for the media, sure they have sensationalised this, but they were also correct. When this originally came out the focus was on the lack of qualifications of Collective Minds, the club dismissed it. Some of our supporters bought it and said nothing to see, the club has dismissed it. Players who had issues with it would have seen this response and thought the club has its head up its arse.

The club also allowed it to drag on, meaning players were constantly asked about it.

The club ****ed up the preseason, the camp, the fitness program and the subsequent mismanagement of injuries. They have plenty to apologise for.

Anyway I’m over it, I just thought I would comment as there seems to be posters who thought they were vindicated by the report even though it found the club guilty of poor governance and lack of due diligence.

 

[John Who]

What I take the apology for is an apology for the lack of governance and due diligence which allowed a group who are unqualified to probe the players minds, which led to some players being upset. I dare say the apology also capture the response they received initially when the players voiced their concerns.

Remember the AFL found them guilty of this, it happened.

As for the media, sure they have sensationalised this, but they were also correct. When this originally came out the focus was on the lack of qualifications of Collective Minds, the club dismissed it. Some of our supporters bought it and said nothing to see, the club has dismissed it. Players who had issues with it would have seen this response and thought the club has its head up its arse.

The club also allowed it to drag on, meaning players were constantly asked about it.

The club ****** up the preseason, the camp, the fitness program and the subsequent mismanagement of injuries. They have plenty to apologise for.

Anyway I’m over it, I just thought I would comment as there seems to be posters who thought they were vindicated by the report even though it found the club guilty of poor governance and lack of due diligence.

There you go again, clumping all the club's flaws this year and making the assumption the Camp was a big issue.
"They have plenty to apologise for", CORRECT.
"The club ****ed up the camp", what exactly went wrong to suggest so?

Even if we brought in psychologists, would that guarantee every player involved to not feel upset? Would every psychological session with a psychiatrist guarantee an inpatient to feel happier on each session?
"The club could have done more due diligence" is a broad statement by the AFL in that things could be done better next time. It's always easier said than done, and always easier to say in hindsight!

The club messed up, YES. However, this thread is about highlighting the assholery of the media when doing their initial reports of the Camp, and then adding continued crap after dung after manure, and then finally finishing with s**t. Remember, these media personas are crapping on our beloved club. You can choose to ignore this issue, that's your prerogative. This though doesn't mean fans can't bash the media back for bashing our club!

 

[John Who]

Williams I can accept, but what was the worst thing Mclure said about us?

It's not the actual words he's using that's the problem. It's his fakeness of doing the camp investigation, and trying to "explore the truth", when all he's doing is adding more BS, than seeking the truth.

In the OP, nothing is more evident than the 15-minute Lynch interview. Not one question about the Camp, to help clarify the answers in which he was seeking for every week of this entire year! So it's ok to write articles about the Camp, dissecting all the rumors, but not ok to ask some actual answers directly to a player involving the actual Camp?

 

[John Who]

I mentioned in the OP about Wilson and co doing our 2018 season review on Footy Classified (finally found the clip!), 5-6 minute clip of them analysing predominantly the preseason Camp, and literally 10 seconds of mention about our hamstring pandemic (Lloyd was the guy who actually made mention of the injuries).

https://www.9now.com.au/footy-classified/2018/clip-cjlc8i74d002v0hozxkm0vwqj

Anyone here on the Crows board think the injuries were the minor part of our season, worth mentioning only in a sentence? If the media cared for the club so much, with their "investigative journalism", why didn't they bother to explore Kangatech, Burton's best practices on the fitness regime, or some other thing related to the topic of "hamstrings"?

 

[FR0GGY]

It's not the actual words he's using that's the problem. It's his fakeness of doing the camp investigation, and trying to "explore the truth", when all he's doing is adding more BS, than seeking the truth.

In the OP, nothing is more evident than the 15-minute Lynch interview. Not one question about the Camp, to help clarify the answers in which he was seeking for every week of this entire year! So it's ok to write articles about the Camp, dissecting all the rumors, but not ok to ask some actual answers directly to a player involving the actual Camp?

So given he was bang on about McGovern wanting out and gave this info mid year.
He clearly had inside info, you don’t think he got some things correct?

 

[John Who]

So given he was bang on about McGovern wanting out and gave this info mid year.
He clearly had inside info, you don’t think he got some things correct?

I never once stated McNure is completely wrong in ALL aspects of his reporting. I've been making a stand since very early on that he's being a big flog for carrying on, and as a fan, I feel it's important we protect the club when in times of need. Are you happy to allow the media to keep on bashing the club, knowing that these kinds of media bashing can happen again next year and so forth?

 

[FR0GGY]

I never once stated McNure is completely wrong in ALL aspects of his reporting. I've been making a stand since very early on that he's being a big flog for carrying on, and as a fan, I feel it's important we protect the club when in times of need. Are you happy to allow the media to keep on bashing the club, knowing that these kinds of media bashing can happen again next year and so forth?

I just want the truth from the club and feel we only got part of it because of the media.
We (big footy) need to stop blaming everyone else (media) for everything and realize we brought this upon ourselves.

 

[MRB37]

So given he was bang on about McGovern wanting out and gave this info mid year.
He clearly had inside info, you don’t think he got some things correct?

That particular piece of info leaked out elsewhere prior to him getting it, so obviously it was something someone wanted people to know.

 

[FR0GGY]

That particular piece of info leaked out elsewhere prior to him getting it, so obviously it was something someone wanted people to know.

Where?

 

[MRB37]

Where?

CrowCast broke it a week before McClure did.

 

[FR0GGY]

CrowCast broke it a week before McClure did.

With no names though wasn’t it?
We all know who fed them that.
I’m their sources weren’t the same.

 

[John Who]

I just want the truth from the club and feel we only got part of it because of the media.
We (big footy) need to stop blaming everyone else (media) for everything and realize we brought this upon ourselves.

See, this is where there is misunderstanding between groups of fans relating to this topic. The Camp reporting was a SEPARATE issue of how much of a debacle our season was. I'm agreeing with you and have agreed countless times that the season, as a whole, was a complete mess! Can we agree that we agree on this?

Ok, so then the issue now is simply how much truth was in the initial media reports of the preseason Camp? A lot of people seem to take the lazy approach and think "smoke and fire", so they automatically assume 50/50 (media half right, club half right). The point of this thread is to highlight the total inaccuracies of the initial reports by the media, and the ratio of truth to lies by them is more likely 5% truth and 95% BS.

I have mentioned before on other threads, I have personal experience with mental illness, and also having dealt with many others with mental illnesses. This has given me some insight into the patterns of dishonesty by the media when they used such terms as "debacle" and "disaster". Player(s) being upset, stressed or unhappy about the Camp is not the same as depression/mental illness (which was more their implication) by using the reference to "mind training camp disaster".

I will try and discuss more detail as to why I've come to the conclusion about the media very early on that it was BS reporting:

1. they were giving out info that there were blindfolds and Tiger's song on a loop.
- exactly how can this be actually distressing? considering the Crows players have heard this song countless of times before in other years, and will listen some more after this year
- this info they used was basically a rubbish info right from the start, which gave already clues there's some hidden agenda going on, and not based on actual FACTS
- we then beat the Tigers in the 2nd round, which confirmed my suspicions that there was no torment going on from "blindfolds, Tiger's song on a loop".

2. As with any psychologists/psychiatrists when dealing with mental health, they don't just only listen to dialogues from their clients. They also use speech and behavioral cues to assess the severity of mental distress. McNure et al, were reliant of the public to look at the objective result (win:loss ratio), and not reliant on ACTUALLY looking at the players' non-verbal cues of signs of distress. I made a point before that in the first 2 months immediate to the aftermath of the Camp, there were no actual signs (non-verbal cues) from any of the players that they were in psychological distress. In fact, we actually won the AFLX (with Hampton playing a fair part in it) and we were 4th after round 9. Bearing in mind, we had achieved this despite all our weekly hammies and ankles/feet injuries!

3. Another main point they kept hounding on was the fact no psychologists were involved with the "mind training" Camp. This is another false fact, because there are many team bonding, stress debrief camps, that have no need for a psychologist. In fact, most camps that AFL teams participate you could classify them all as "mind training/strengthening" and no psychologists were likely to have ever been involved during any of those camps.
Furthermore, we had significant success with Collective Minds with last year's GF participation, so it's not like they haven't done any good for us before with whatever they were doing in the past!

4. This follows on from point 3 - the implication that psychologists are the be-all of mental health/strengthening. This I can categorically say is absolute BS. Let me paint a picture for you...would you rather be motivated by:
a). A motivational speaker who had lived a hard life, maybe with drugs and alcohol in the past, but has since reformed and found light at the end of the tunnel?
b). A psychologist who spends 30 minutes with you, but seemingly looking at the watch more than you, and not really hearing your side of the story?
This by no means I'm implying psychologists are useless, but more the point that the qualifications are not so much important in motivating others, but the life experiences and the intention to help others should be the key criteria.

I needed to get this bloody essay off my chest. It's been brewing in my head these last few months!

 

[FR0GGY]

See, this is where there is misunderstanding between groups of fans relating to this topic. The Camp reporting was a SEPARATE issue of how much of a debacle our season was. I'm agreeing with you and have agreed countless times that the season, as a whole, was a complete mess! Can we agree that we agree on this?

Ok, so then the issue now is simply how much truth was in the initial media reports of the preseason Camp? A lot of people seem to take the lazy approach and think "smoke and fire", so they automatically assume 50/50 (media half right, club half right). The point of this thread is to highlight the total inaccuracies of the initial reports by the media, and the ratio of truth to lies by them is more likely 5% truth and 95% BS.

I have mentioned before on other threads, I have personal experience with mental illness, and also having dealt with many others with mental illnesses. This has given me some insight into the patterns of dishonesty by the media when they used such terms as "debacle" and "disaster". Player(s) being upset, stressed or unhappy about the Camp is not the same as depression/mental illness (which was more their implication) by using the reference to "mind training camp disaster".

I will try and discuss more detail as to why I've come to the conclusion about the media very early on that it was BS reporting:

1. they were giving out info that there were blindfolds and Tiger's song on a loop.
- exactly how can this be actually distressing? considering the Crows players have heard this song countless of times before in other years, and will listen some more after this year
- this info they used was basically a rubbish info right from the start, which gave already clues there's some hidden agenda going on, and not based on actual FACTS
- we then beat the Tigers in the 2nd round, which confirmed my suspicions that there was no torment going on from "blindfolds, Tiger's song on a loop".

2. As with any psychologists/psychiatrists when dealing with mental health, they don't just only listen to dialogues from their clients. They also use speech and behavioral cues to assess the severity of mental distress. McNure et al, were reliant of the public to look at the objective result (win:loss ratio), and not reliant on ACTUALLY looking at the players' non-verbal cues of signs of distress. I made a point before that in the first 2 months immediate to the aftermath of the Camp, there were no actual signs (non-verbal cues) from any of the players that they were in psychological distress. In fact, we actually won the JLT (with Hampton playing a fair part in it) and we were 4th after round 9. Bearing in mind, we had achieved this despite all our weekly hammies and ankles/feet injuries!

3. Another main point they kept hounding on was the fact no psychologists were involved with the "mind training" Camp. This is another false fact, because there are many team bonding, stress debrief camps, that have no need for a psychologist. In fact, most camps that AFL teams participate you could classify them all as "mind training/strengthening" and no psychologists were likely to have ever been involved during any of those camps.
Furthermore, we had significant success with Collective Minds with last year's GF participation, so it's not like they haven't done any good for us before with whatever they were doing in the past!

4. This follows on from point 3 - the implication that psychologists are the be-all of mental health/strengthening. This I can categorically say is absolute BS. Let me paint a picture for you...would you rather be motivated by:
a). A motivational speaker who had lived a hard life, maybe with drugs and alcohol in the past, but has since reformed and found light at the end of the tunnel?
b). A psychologist who spends 30 minutes with you, but seemingly looking at the watch more than you, and not really hearing your side of the story?
This by no means I'm implying psychologists are useless, but more the point that the qualifications are not so much important in motivating others, but the life experiences and the intention to help others should be the key criteria.

I needed to get this bloody essay off my chest. It's been brewing in my head these last few months!

To be honest mate most of that is just waffle and your opinion not facts.

Absolutely the season was a mess 100% club/player responsible for.

1. I don’t believe for 1 minute the media just make stuff up out of thin air, they obviously get told things and go from there.
For example if he’s just made up that they’ve been blindfolded on a bus trip, had their mobiles taken and listened to the Richmond song repeatedly for 24 hrs that’s a pretty amazing guess.
Because they did go on a bus trip have the song played (pyke says played but not on repeat - mid year presser, however CM said it was sung by a comedian, stories don’t match here) had their mobiles taken. - To me that’s batting at 75% right not the 5% you talk about and certainly gold star worthy if he’s just guessed all of it.

2. You don’t win the JLT, they are infact just practice games, so if you want the media held to account for getting things incorrect then you need to get things correct as well
For the record we scraped over the line against a Freo and we know how bad they were this year and lost to Port, hardly winning the JLT even if you could.
Curtly for the record had an ok freo game and a poor port game.
You say they didn’t look distress (opinion not fact) Fagan said the realized in the weeks after that some players were upset by the camp and had issues with it. Whereas burton in the mid year presser said there were no lingering issue post the camp. Another discrepancy in our stories.
Also you don just look at the immediate aftermath you need to look st the whol season. Just take a look at 4 players reportedly who didn’t enjoy the camp.
Hampton - retired due to mental health problems
Betts - his worst statistical year for us and his worst in 9 years.
Jacobs - his 2nd worst statistical year for us and worst in 7 years. Admitted he didn’t like the camp and it affected the side all year.
McGovern- wanted out of a contract only a few months after signing a 3 year deal. (Note he turned down a more lucrative long term offer to go home and stay with us)
Not really a great record from those players is it?

3. Not a false fact at all, actually it’s a FACT that physiologists weren’t involved with the camp, not sure why you’d suggest this is false.
It’s once Again your opinion that they don’t need to be involved but I suspect this is where the lack of due diligence that we and the afl admitted we failed in implementing.
Now feenix did a lot more research on CM than I have or ever want to do. But when a company has to twist their history, training and past clients to make it better than it is, it’s a bit worrying.
4. Once again an opinion.

So all in all you haven’t really touched on the 95% bullshit the media pedaled it was just opinions.

Now you and most people seem to be in agreement that the club handled the situation terribly.
Handled a situation that WE (see Brett Burton) put our selves in terribly.
I just don’t get how the club or Brett get off lightly at all, you seem to be so focused on the media being meanies when really it’s ALL our fault.
I also don’t know how you expect the media to do its job when we chose to freeze them out?
So how exactly does Brett still have a job?
It hasn’t been debunked by the club that he kept the camp from key people in the club and the board. This could be a key contributor to us now implementing a full time integrity officer.

Congratulations you’ve made me post my longest post in big footy yet!

 

[subaru]

I’m pretty sure that more than a few supporters believed the club when they originally came out and said that there were no issues with the camp and they also believed it had no affect on our season. Were you one of them?

It was only the media probing which led to the club coming clean it was a fail and the afl investigation which found a lack of governance and due diligence. Chapman had previously said we did our due diligence.

I might have missed it but I can’t recall posters stating they believed all the media reports including the being tied naked to trees story. But they didn’t believe the clubs original version that all was fine when it has been proven it clearly wasn’t.

Ask them
They “knew” what happened on the camp they just couldn’t “say anything” and when we asked for proof - then some crap about “pm’s” proved they knew everything.


The refrain was one of “inside sources” and that the media were right - s**t went down.


Turns out - they knew nothing and blew what they did “ know” completely out of proportion.

Facts were out the window.


I CBF’d going back over that thread but those posters involved in that effort were no different to Sam McManure

 

[subaru]

FMD
You peddle more bullshit than any media has.
How was he wrong suggesting people dealing with the mind should be properly trained?
If that's the worst he said about the camp then.....
I think there's been enough proof about players being culturally upset as well as other players - Andrew Fagan even said so.
He proved Brett was lying when he said the other day that they found out following the camp that players were upset, yet Brett said after the camp there were no lingering issues.
Sure Mark Williams was completely wrong. I never took it as fact and I haven't seen anyone else do the same.
Obviously not everything reported was true and clearly not everything said by the club was true.

I said “don’t”

You’re in a hole - stop digging

 

[FR0GGY]

I said “don’t”

You’re in a hole - stop digging

Oooh you said don’t. Good on you.
Maybe if you read and listened you could sustain a debate without resorting to 5 year old dribble, you would see other points of view.
You’re a sensationalist, as above NO ONE ever said they knew what went on exactly on the camp, you make stuff up like that all the time.
Over and out with you.

 

[SCrow 2019]

To be honest mate most of that is just waffle and your opinion not facts.

Absolutely the season was a mess 100% club/player responsible for.

1. I don’t believe for 1 minute the media just make stuff up out of thin air, they obviously get told things and go from there.
For example if he’s just made up that they’ve been blindfolded on a bus trip, had their mobiles taken and listened to the Richmond song repeatedly for 24 hrs that’s a pretty amazing guess.
Because they did go on a bus trip have the song played (pyke says played but not on repeat - mid year presser, however CM said it was sung by a comedian, stories don’t match here) had their mobiles taken. - To me that’s batting at 75% right not the 5% you talk about and certainly gold star worthy if he’s just guessed all of it.

2. You don’t win the JLT, they are infact just practice games, so if you want the media held to account for getting things incorrect then you need to get things correct as well
For the record we scraped over the line against a Freo and we know how bad they were this year and lost to Port, hardly winning the JLT even if you could.
Curtly for the record had an ok freo game and a poor port game.
You say they didn’t look distress (opinion not fact) Fagan said the realized in the weeks after that some players were upset by the camp and had issues with it. Whereas burton in the mid year presser said there were no lingering issue post the camp. Another discrepancy in our stories.
Also you don just look at the immediate aftermath you need to look st the whol season. Just take a look at 4 players reportedly who didn’t enjoy the camp.
Hampton - retired due to mental health problems
Betts - his worst statistical year for us and his worst in 9 years.
Jacobs - his 2nd worst statistical year for us and worst in 7 years. Admitted he didn’t like the camp and it affected the side all year.
McGovern- wanted out of a contract only a few months after signing a 3 year deal. (Note he turned down a more lucrative long term offer to go home and stay with us)
Not really a great record from those players is it?

3. Not a false fact at all, actually it’s a FACT that physiologists weren’t involved with the camp, not sure why you’d suggest this is false.
It’s once Again your opinion that they don’t need to be involved but I suspect this is where the lack of due diligence that we and the afl admitted we failed in implementing.
Now feenix did a lot more research on CM than I have or ever want to do. But when a company has to twist their history, training and past clients to make it better than it is, it’s a bit worrying.
4. Once again an opinion.

So all in all you haven’t really touched on the 95% bullshit the media pedaled it was just opinions.

Now you and most people seem to be in agreement that the club handled the situation terribly.
Handled a situation that WE (see Brett Burton) put our selves in terribly.
I just don’t get how the club or Brett get off lightly at all, you seem to be so focused on the media being meanies when really it’s ALL our fault.
I also don’t know how you expect the media to do its job when we chose to freeze them out?
So how exactly does Brett still have a job?
It hasn’t been debunked by the club that he kept the camp from key people in the club and the board. This could be a key contributor to us now implementing a full time integrity officer.

Congratulations you’ve made me post my longest post in big footy yet!

Stick to shorter responses is my advice - at least John Who has an intelligent argument that can be defended - responses that are naive at best and lacking intellect at worst are very common out there

 

[John Who]

To be honest mate most of that is just waffle and your opinion not facts.

Absolutely the season was a mess 100% club/player responsible for.

1. I don’t believe for 1 minute the media just make stuff up out of thin air, they obviously get told things and go from there.
For example if he’s just made up that they’ve been blindfolded on a bus trip, had their mobiles taken and listened to the Richmond song repeatedly for 24 hrs that’s a pretty amazing guess.
Because they did go on a bus trip have the song played (pyke says played but not on repeat - mid year presser, however CM said it was sung by a comedian, stories don’t match here) had their mobiles taken. - To me that’s batting at 75% right not the 5% you talk about and certainly gold star worthy if he’s just guessed all of it.

2. You don’t win the JLT, they are infact just practice games, so if you want the media held to account for getting things incorrect then you need to get things correct as well
For the record we scraped over the line against a Freo and we know how bad they were this year and lost to Port, hardly winning the JLT even if you could.
Curtly for the record had an ok freo game and a poor port game.
You say they didn’t look distress (opinion not fact) Fagan said the realized in the weeks after that some players were upset by the camp and had issues with it. Whereas burton in the mid year presser said there were no lingering issue post the camp. Another discrepancy in our stories.
Also you don just look at the immediate aftermath you need to look st the whol season. Just take a look at 4 players reportedly who didn’t enjoy the camp.
Hampton - retired due to mental health problems
Betts - his worst statistical year for us and his worst in 9 years.
Jacobs - his 2nd worst statistical year for us and worst in 7 years. Admitted he didn’t like the camp and it affected the side all year.
McGovern- wanted out of a contract only a few months after signing a 3 year deal. (Note he turned down a more lucrative long term offer to go home and stay with us)
Not really a great record from those players is it?

3. Not a false fact at all, actually it’s a FACT that physiologists weren’t involved with the camp, not sure why you’d suggest this is false.
It’s once Again your opinion that they don’t need to be involved but I suspect this is where the lack of due diligence that we and the afl admitted we failed in implementing.
Now feenix did a lot more research on CM than I have or ever want to do. But when a company has to twist their history, training and past clients to make it better than it is, it’s a bit worrying.
4. Once again an opinion.

So all in all you haven’t really touched on the 95% bullshit the media pedaled it was just opinions.

Now you and most people seem to be in agreement that the club handled the situation terribly.
Handled a situation that WE (see Brett Burton) put our selves in terribly.
I just don’t get how the club or Brett get off lightly at all, you seem to be so focused on the media being meanies when really it’s ALL our fault.
I also don’t know how you expect the media to do its job when we chose to freeze them out?
So how exactly does Brett still have a job?
It hasn’t been debunked by the club that he kept the camp from key people in the club and the board. This could be a key contributor to us now implementing a full time integrity officer.

Congratulations you’ve made me post my longest post in big footy yet!

I corrected myself about the JLT comment. I meant AFLX! It's really a small point, but still a valid one, in that Hampton performed well during that one-day series. Congrats though for writing a long essay! Crowbloke would be proud! lol

In a sense, yes, I'm saying a lot out of opinions. However, my opinions are based on circumstantial evidence and having a fair bit of understanding in mental health. There's really 2 approach to this media campaign:
1. to get evidence from the media in how they came up with the stories, and to ascertain their level of integrity.
2. to get ALL the facts from the club, to settle us down.

What's happening here is that you seem to want to get ALL the facts from the club on the Camp, and forget to focus on the integrity of the media reporting on the club. You can't have one without the other, this is actually fact (need to take into account both sides of the argument).

Quoting from you regarding the alledged players:
"Hampton - retired due to mental health problems
Betts - his worst statistical year for us and his worst in 9 years.
Jacobs - his 2nd worst statistical year for us and worst in 7 years. Admitted he didn’t like the camp and it affected the side all year.
McGovern- wanted out of a contract only a few months after signing a 3 year deal. (Note he turned down a more lucrative long term offer to go home and stay with us)
Not really a great record from those players is it?"

Hampton - funny how you touched on this, because I get the feeling the media somehow knew about Hampton's mental well-being and linked this with the preseason Camp. His retirement came from his lack of enjoyment from recurring injuries and being continually on the fringe most of the past few years, he confirmed this on a video interview. Did you honestly think he retired from a 3-day camp?? And if the camp pissed him off so much, why couldn't he seek transfer to play at another club?

Betts - worst statistical year with recurring hammy issue this year, and having to look after newly-born twins. Surely that would make anyone go crazy!?

Jacobs - he was consistently average to ok throughout the year, so I can't really say how much the camp affected him. Likely had some lingering unresolved grief with the passing of his brother end of last year.

McGovern - if you're going to use McGovern as the reason of the Camp failure, then why did all the other camp participants re-signed on the dotted line?

 

[FR0GGY]

Stick to shorter responses is my advice - at least John Who has an intelligent argument that can be defended - responses that are naive at best and lacking intellect at worst are very common out there

Probably not going to take advice from someone who adds nothing.
If you’re not going to read don’t bother replying.
Thanks for your valuable input.

 

[FR0GGY]

I corrected myself about the JLT comment. I meant AFLX! It's really a small point, but still a valid one, in that Hampton performed well during that one-day series. Congrats though for writing a long essay! Crowbloke would be proud! lol

In a sense, yes, I'm saying a lot out of opinions. However, my opinions are based on circumstantial evidence and having a fair bit of understanding in mental health. There's really 2 approach to this media campaign:
1. to get evidence from the media in how they came up with the stories, and to ascertain their level of integrity.
2. to get ALL the facts from the club, to settle us down.

What's happening here is that you seem to want to get ALL the facts from the club on the Camp, and forget to focus on the integrity of the media reporting on the club. You can't have one without the other, this is actually fact (need to take into account both sides of the argument).

Quoting from you regarding the alledged players:
"Hampton - retired due to mental health problems
Betts - his worst statistical year for us and his worst in 9 years.
Jacobs - his 2nd worst statistical year for us and worst in 7 years. Admitted he didn’t like the camp and it affected the side all year.
McGovern- wanted out of a contract only a few months after signing a 3 year deal. (Note he turned down a more lucrative long term offer to go home and stay with us)
Not really a great record from those players is it?"

Hampton - funny how you touched on this, because I get the feeling the media somehow knew about Hampton's mental well-being and linked this with the preseason Camp. His retirement came from his lack of enjoyment from recurring injuries and being continually on the fringe most of the past few years, he confirmed this on a video interview. Did you honestly think he retired from a 3-day camp?? And if the camp pissed him off so much, why couldn't he seek transfer to play at another club?

Betts - worst statistical year with recurring hammy issue this year, and having to look after newly-born twins. Surely that would make anyone go crazy!?

Jacobs - he was consistently average to ok throughout the year, so I can't really say how much the camp affected him. Likely had some lingering unresolved grief with the passing of his brother end of last year.

McGovern - if you're going to use McGovern as the reason of the Camp failure, then why did all the other camp participants re-signed on the dotted line?

It probably looked like I was, but I’m not saying the camp was 100% responsible for all those players reasons and poor seasons, more that it’s just a coincidence that those players who reportedly (confessed by Jacobs and betts) didn’t enjoy the camp had poor years or are not at the club anymore.

I just think we need to take more ownership than saying the camp was fine but it was the media who turned it into something it wasn’t.
When clearly the club has said or finally admitted (after the media went at them) that it was a fail, they failed in doing due diligence and the AFL have said the same.
This is 100% our doing.

 

[El Doederino]

So given he was bang on about McGovern wanting out and gave this info mid year.
He clearly had inside info, you don’t think he got some things correct?

It’s all related. He was given info about McGovern by contacts at Carlton and then drove the camp agenda.

 

[FR0GGY]

It’s all related. He was given info about McGovern by contacts at Carlton and then drove the camp agenda.

I’d say it was clearly McGovern’s manager spilling