Expansion Melbourne homecoming

Fitzroy and South Melbourne homecoming

  • Return both Fitzroy and Sth Melb to Melbourne

    Votes: 4 14.8%
  • Return just Fitzroy

    Votes: 1 3.7%
  • Return just Sth Melb

    Votes: 1 3.7%
  • Leave them at Sydney and Brisbane

    Votes: 21 77.8%

  • Total voters
    27

Roylion

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But in my opinion Fitzroy as a founding club and 99 years of competing in the VFL/AFL they deserve a spot, if you can really stand up and make a real case to the AFL I can be sure you will get the Victorian public on your side.
And so? Does than translate into sponsorship and memberships?

It's fanciful, pie-in-the-sky stuff.

As for the AFL it cannot stay the same forever, people are already starting to get sick of the AFL corporate, just look at the reaction to the rule changes and the "safety awareness officers" or whatever they are called at the of the season this year.
The attendances don't reflect that opinion. In 2019 AFL broke its all-time season attendance record for the third year in a row.

AFL home and away season total attendances 2014-2019
2019 - 6,954,187
2018 - 6,894,770
2017 - 6,732,601
2016 - 6,306,333
2015 - 6,351,578
2014 - 6,384,742

And as long as that continues to happen, the current situation will prevail.

Why would the AFL re-issue a licence to Fitzroy? It would involve either another Brisbane re-branding which will have a negative impact on the game in Queensland, or Fitzroy would have to adopt another new identity which means that people would/could stop following them, thus limiting their ability to function as a successful AFL club. It's just not going to happen.

As for a home VFL ground, Victoria Park is relatively close to Fitzroy and is used as a VFL venue, if you want to go back there, understandable if you want to go though collingwood, I wouldn't either.
Victoria Park has a capacity of 15,000 and Collingwood currently uses the ground for its own VFL and women's teams.
 
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telsor

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WHY, there is too much footy in Melbourne already, games sent to Ballarat, Hobart, Launceston, Alice Springs, Darwin, Cairns, Townsville .... you dont need to pull footy from NSW & Q., even tried to move games out of Melbourne to NZ (they wouldnt pay so it failed) & its a St Kilda game that goes to China.

Resurrect Fitzroy, why not University?

Address WHY there is too much footy in Melbourne.

I am NOT in favor, but one possible reason would be that it would provide sufficient matches to justify a 3rd (cheaper) stadium, which would mean Melbourne teams would no longer have to play elsewhere.

Mind you, that's also the reason it'd never happen...The AFL wants games played in all parts of the country, and the current situation (ground costs and match limits per stadium) pretty much forces clubs to comply with their desired setup. (conversely, it's also why they wouldn't cut a Melbourne club).
 

Johnny Bananas

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This is one of the most hare-brained threads I've seen. It's been over 20 years in the case of Fitzroy and nearly 40 years in the case of South Melbourne, get over it. Or go and watch Fitzroy in the VAFA if you're nostalgic.
 

Roaming Lou

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And so? Does than translate into sponsorship and memberships?
Well one could argue that sponsors would feel more comfortable in sponsoring a team that already has a supporter base albeit if it was to happen (which it probably won't) that fans would have been waiting what would be likely 30+ or so years.
I agree with both you and Johnny Bananas that it will probably never happen. This thread does not represent my own personal opinion. I believe that having Fitzroy and South would be a "nice to have" but it is just WAY to impractical to achieve. Even if it ever happens it will probably be long after I'm gone. The purpose of this thread is to observe public opinion, and to discuss ways it could ever be made practical. If I was serious about this I wouldn't be whinging on a Big Footy thread.

Lol just reading back on the last part makes it sound like a rant, if u read this plz do it in a calm voice.
 

Roylion

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Well one could argue that sponsors would feel more comfortable in sponsoring a team that already has a supporter base albeit if it was to happen (which it probably won't) that fans would have been waiting what would be likely 30+ or so years.
A very small supporter base that would have to be rebuilt and then expanded.

The purpose of this thread is to observe public opinion, and to discuss ways it could ever be made practical.
Probably the romanticism in many football supporters would love to see Fitzroy return to the AFL. The hurdles and resistance are too high and insurmountable for it to happen.
 

Roaming Lou

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Probably the romanticism in many football supporters would love to see Fitzroy return to the AFL. The hurdles and resistance are too high and insurmountable for it to happen.
Yeah, it would be such a feel good story if South and Roy returned, but hey who knows Demetriou was a player, and from what I've seen Gil's a good bloke (no fan of many of their business decisions though), it just takes one or two people to come in and you could see the entire league change for better or for worse, maybe just maybe it might happen, who knows?
 

Roylion

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Yeah, it would be such a feel good story if South and Roy returned, but hey who knows Demetriou was a player, and from what I've seen Gil's a good bloke (no fan of many of their business decisions though), it just takes one or two people to come in and you could see the entire league change for better or for worse, maybe just maybe it might happen, who knows?
I just can't see it. While Fitzroy (the very same club that was formed in 1883) still exists in its own right, I can't see it going much beyond the VAFA. And that's partly because the AFL would never allow it's re-entry into the VFA (now the VFL) and hence into the AFL. There's too much invested in the Brisbane Lions current brnading /identity for that to be diluted by Fitzroy coming back in its own right.

To understand why I think that, you have to be aware of what has happened to Fitzroy between 1996 and 2009 when it entered the VAFA.

After Fitzroy was stripped of its licence to compete in the AFL competition in 1996, the club remained under the control of the administrator until all debts were settled and then returned to the control of the directors and shareholders at the end of 1997. From that point onwards, the shareholders, directors and a small group of loyal members (including myself) used to meet regularly at various locations such as the West Brunswick Hotel working and planning to get the club back on its' feet. For two further years, the Brisbane Bears / Lions held a registered charge over Fitzroy Football Club's head, threatening on numerous occasions to liquidate the club, styming any real progress, because investing money and effort could have been abruptly ended by the Brisbane Lions and the AFL. That was until Brisbane Lions Chairman Allan Piper, in an effort to improve relationships with the Melbourne Fitzroy base had the charge removed (1999). From that point onwards, the Fitzroy Football Club started actively re-accumulating assets, trademarking the FFC logo, launching a "Fitzroy Shop", which to this day sells Fitzroy jumpers and other Fitzroy merchandise and memorabilia (independent of the AFL) as well as issuing Fitzroy Football Club yearly memberships to supporters, and slowly getting back on its feet as an operating football club.

Meanwhile in the wake of Fitzroy leaving the AFL and having temporarily no on-field football operations, the University Reds sought to fill some of the void (and thereby gaining more support for themselves) by re-naming themselves "Fitzroy Reds", adopting (with the Fitzroy Football Club's blessing and sponsorship) the Fitzroy jumper and playing out of Fitzroy Football Club's traditional home the Brunswick Street Oval. Fitzroy Football Club even sponsored them.

However as Fitzroy Football Club further increased its assets and profile (and given that it was they who were part of the 1996 'Deed of Arrangement' - the so called 'merger' document', which to this day holds Brisbane to account in terms of representing Fitzroy in the AFL (as we saw in 2010 with the Fitzroy lion logo case) it was felt that two seperate operating football clubs (one off-field and one on-field) called 'Fitzroy' wasn't the most efficient way to rebuild Fitzroy's profile in the Victorian footballing community.

So in December 2008, at the instigation of the then Fitzroy (University) Reds president Craig Little, the University Reds Football Club (known as the 'Fitzroy' Reds from 1997) transferred all its assets to the Fitzroy Football Club. The University (Fitzroy) Reds terminated its membership of the VAFA and was wound up as a incorporated company and football club.

By special dispensation from the VAFA, the Fitzroy Football Club (formed 1883) then replaced the Fitzroy [University] Reds in D-Grade [Premier D] VAFA. Dyson Hore-Lacy, chairman of Fitzroy in 1996, became chairman of the Club in the VAFA, while Joan Eddy became President. Today the club had advnce d through the ranks to now compete the Premier B competition. It;s aim is to get to and win a Premier VAFA premiership.

Therefore, despite repeated denials by some posters on here (who can't seem to get their heads around that there was no 'merger' - and for no better reason that the AFL for marketing purposes says there was a 'merger' - after all there's a 'merger agreement', so it must have happened ! ), the club that exists in the VAFA today is the same club that was formed in 1883 and competed for a hundred years in the VFL/AFL. It is now as it started - a football club representing the suburb of Fitzroy.

The AFL don't like it, but there's really nothing they can do about it - other that refuse to acknowledge that the Fitzroy Football Club in the VAFA - is in fact the same Fitzroy Football Club that used to hold an AFL licence and was a foundation member of their competition. Hence their marketing of what happened in 1996 as a "merger" in their print and online publications.

What they can do (and will do) is refuse to allow Fitzroy to compete in its own right and with its traditional branding in either the VFL or AFL competitions. That's why any suggestion of a Fitzroy return to either competition is largely fanciful (not to mention the not insignificant obstacle of raising enough funds to do either).
 
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Roaming Lou

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I just can't see it. While Fitzroy (the very same club that was formed in 1883) still exists in its own right, I can't see it going much beyond the VAFA. And that's partly because the AFL would never allow it's re-entry into the VFA (now the VFL) and hence into the AFL. There's too much invested in the Brisbane Lions current brnading /identity for that to be diluted by Fitzroy coming back in its own right.

To understand why I think that, you have to be aware of what has happened to Fitzroy between 1996 and 2009 when it entered the VAFA.

After Fitzroy was stripped of its licence to compete in the AFL competition in 1996, the club remained under the control of the administrator until all debts were settled and then returned to the control of the directors and shareholders at the end of 1997. From that point onwards, the shareholders, directors and a small group of loyal members (including myself) used to meet regularly at various locations such as the West Brunswick Hotel working and planning to get the club back on its' feet. For two further years, the Brisbane Bears / Lions held a registered charge over Fitzroy Football Club's head, threatening on numerous occasions to liquidate the club, styming any real progress, because investing money and effort could have been abruptly ended by the Brisbane Lions and the AFL. That was until Brisbane Lions Chairman Allan Piper, in an effort to improve relationships with the Melbourne Fitzroy base had the charge removed (1999). From that point onwards, the Fitzroy Football Club started actively re-accumulating assets, trademarking the FFC logo, launching a "Fitzroy Shop", which to this day sells Fitzroy jumpers and other Fitzroy merchandise and memorabilia (independent of the AFL) as well as issuing Fitzroy Football Club yearly memberships to supporters, and slowly getting back on its feet as an operating football club.

Meanwhile in the wake of Fitzroy leaving the AFL and having temporarily no on-field football operations, the University Reds sought to fill some of the void (and thereby gaining more support for themselves) by re-naming themselves "Fitzroy Reds", adopting (with the Fitzroy Football Club's blessing and sponsorship) the Fitzroy jumper and playing out of Fitzroy Football Club's traditional home the Brunswick Street Oval. Fitzroy Football Club even sponsored them.

However as Fitzroy Football Club further increased its assets and profile (and given that it was they who were part of the 1996 'Deed of Arrangement' - the so called 'merger' document', which to this day holds Brisbane to account in terms of representing Fitzroy in the AFL (as we saw in 2010 with the Fitzroy lion logo case) it was felt that two seperate operating football clubs (one off-field and one on-field) called 'Fitzroy' wasn't the most efficient way to rebuild Fitzroy's profile in the Victorian footballing community.

So in December 2008, at the instigation of the then Fitzroy (University) Reds president Craig Little, the University Reds Football Club (known as the 'Fitzroy' Reds from 1997) transferred all its assets to the Fitzroy Football Club. The University (Fitzroy) Reds terminated its membership of the VAFA and was wound up as a incorporated company and football club.

By special dispensation from the VAFA, the Fitzroy Football Club (formed 1883) then replaced the Fitzroy [University] Reds in D-Grade [Premier D] VAFA. Dyson Hore-Lacy, chairman of Fitzroy in 1996, became chairman of the Club in the VAFA, while Joan Eddy became President. Today the club had advnce d through the ranks to now compete the Premier B competition. It;s aim is to get to and win a Premier VAFA premiership.

Therefore, despite repeated denials by some posters on here (who can't seem to get their heads around that there was no 'merger' - and for no better reason that the AFL for marketing purposes says there was a 'merger' - after all there's a 'merger agreement', so it must have happened ! ), the club that exists in the VAFA today is the same club that was formed in 1883 and competed for a hundred years in the VFL/AFL. It is now as it started - a football club representing the suburb of Fitzroy.

The AFL don't like it, but there's really nothing they can do about it - other that refuse to acknowledge that the Fitzroy Football Club in the VAFA - is in fact the same Fitzroy Football Club that used to hold an AFL licence and was a foundation member of their competition.

What they can do (and will do) is refuse to allow Fitzroy to compete in its own right and with its branding in either the VFL or AFL competitions. That's why any suggestion of a Fitzroy return to either competition is largely fanciful (not to mention the not insignificant obstacle of raising enough funds to do either).
Its a sad story, Fitzroy in the end was just used by the AFL as a pawn in there game of greedy expansionism, it was like they hung Fitzroy out and then used their fan base as a means to say that Queensland can produce a successful team and to justify future endeavours in QLD and NSW. Also Fitzroy's death was a slow one, but it really got bad in the mid 90s, with Nauru demanding its money, disillusioned fans, practically being homeless and a looming lawsuit from Footscray, its quite sad. Well all you can really do for now is wait and grow your club. As Ghandi said
First they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.
 

thegreig

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The only way Fitzroy and South could come back would be if we had WW3 and every major city in Aus got nuked. From the ashes a group of mutants with romantic memories of the past would relaunch the VFL with the original 12 clubs because travelling to others states in this future wasteland would not be possible.
 

Roaming Lou

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The only way Fitzroy and South could come back would be if we had WW3 and every major city in Aus got nuked. From the ashes a group of mutants with romantic memories of the past would relaunch the VFL with the original 12 clubs because travelling to others states in this future wasteland would not be possible.
Sounds perfectly reasonable
 

Roaming Lou

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I must say though, I am quite I'll informed about South Melbourne, does anybody know what happened in the late 40s that made south so poor?.
 

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Ned_Flanders

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I must say though, I am quite I'll informed about South Melbourne, does anybody know what happened in the late 40s that made south so poor?.
Punters moved from the inner city suburbs to the newer outer suburbs. Basically the only real development for 30+ years after WW2 was the commission housing, which added to the problem.

Gentrification only started in the 80s
 

Roaming Lou

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Look if this is to go ahead it would require AFL support which it does not have for the foreseeable future, but I can see it working.
If this is to work then Swans and Lions can get out of Sydney and Brisbane with minimal impact. First of all both Brisbane and Sydney need to be doing well supporter wise. I can see this happening as Sydney have an absolute hulk of a supporter base and both clubs have made considerable gains in their home towns just over the last decade. To start off with both clubs supporter bases are still there, Fitzroy's base is dispersed but still there. If they can get a team into the VFL then they will gain considerable support very quickly.
South on the other hand will be a slightly harder nut to crack. One way South could build themselves up is by Representing the broader South Melbourne and then acting like the real community club, this means hosting lots of community days and fundraisers. If both clubs can go successfully in the VFL then they should go for the AFL, if I had the reins this is how it would go. Brisbane would reform back into the bears and Sydney could become the dolphins ( for the guernsey they could use the current template and have the top part black and the bottom dark blue). Apart from a change of mascot nothing would change for both Brisbane and Sydney. With South claiming the south western suburbs then the Bulldogs can call themselves Footscray again.
So this is how I think they could get back without causing to much damage to Sydney and Brisbane.
Sorry if this seemed rushed, I'm typing this on my old Samsung and thats hell.
 

NoobPie

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Look if this is to go ahead it would require AFL support which it does not have for the foreseeable future, but I can see it working.
If this is to work then Swans and Lions can get out of Sydney and Brisbane with minimal impact. First of all both Brisbane and Sydney need to be doing well supporter wise. I can see this happening as Sydney have an absolute hulk of a supporter base and both clubs have made considerable gains in their home towns just over the last decade. To start off with both clubs supporter bases are still there, Fitzroy's base is dispersed but still there. If they can get a team into the VFL then they will gain considerable support very quickly.
South on the other hand will be a slightly harder nut to crack. One way South could build themselves up is by Representing the broader South Melbourne and then acting like the real community club, this means hosting lots of community days and fundraisers. If both clubs can go successfully in the VFL then they should go for the AFL, if I had the reins this is how it would go. Brisbane would reform back into the bears and Sydney could become the dolphins ( for the guernsey they could use the current template and have the top part black and the bottom dark blue). Apart from a change of mascot nothing would change for both Brisbane and Sydney. With South claiming the south western suburbs then the Bulldogs can call themselves Footscray again.
So this is how I think they could get back without causing to much damage to Sydney and Brisbane.
Sorry if this seemed rushed, I'm typing this on my old Samsung and thats hell.

Are you are troll or just a bit batty?
 

Roaming Lou

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Are you are troll or just a bit batty?
Really?, is this even an argument?. If you think I'm batty then why don't you actually come at me. Plus what's so bad about theorising ways two old clubs can return. Even Roylion up here wants the Roys to return, and look at the debate we had (He is a realist I guess).
 

thegreig

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Really?, is this even an argument?. If you think I'm batty then why don't you actually come at me. Plus what's so bad about theorising ways two old clubs can return. Even Roylion up here wants the Roys to return, and look at the debate we had (He is a realist I guess).
It’s just such a silly unrealistic idea, it’s like asking how could you get Billy Brownless to put the boots back on and captain coach Geelong or how can we get players to go back to being amateurs whilst wearing hats and lace up guernseys so the game feels more traditional. It’s a pointless conversation.
 

Roaming Lou

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It’s just such a silly unrealistic idea, it’s like asking how could you get Billy Brownless to put the boots back on and captain coach Geelong or how can we get players to go back to being amateurs whilst wearing hats and lace up guernseys so the game feels more traditional. It’s a pointless conversation.
Oh, we aren't debating whether it would happen, thats stupid the AFL would never let it happen. I'm debating what are possible ways it could happen, with AFL support of course.

Also were kinda having an argument in another thread.
 

Roylion

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Even Roylion up here wants the Roys to return, and look at the debate we had (He is a realist I guess).
VFL participation is a remote possibility, but Fitzroy will never be back in the AFL in its own right. Under any circumstances.

The Brisbane Lions will continue to represent Fitzroy's AFL identity in the AFL and Fitzroy supporters can decide whether to support the Brisbane Lions on the basis of that.
 

Roaming Lou

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VFL participation is a remote possibility, but Fitzroy will never be back in the AFL in its own right. Under any circumstances.

The Brisbane Lions will continue to represent Fitzroy's AFL identity in the AFL and Fitzroy supporters can decide whether to support the Brisbane Lions on the basis of that.
I think that the possibility is a lot higher than people think. When the VFL gets itself in order and is ripe for expansion, having Fitzroy back is something the AFL might want because it might bring back some of the old Fitzroy supporters who simply stopped following footy after 96.
But thats more realism, I think theorising is more fun.

But if Fitzroy got into the VFL can you see how opinions might change. The VFL is only one step away from the AFL, and Fitzroy getting back into the VFL is big news and would most certainly create a bandwagon. Fitzroy AFL dreams might go from pie-in-the-sky, to "is it possible?".
This might be partly why the AFL doesn't even want to near Fitzroy. This would probably even impact Brisbane into being more pro-Fitzroy as they have a considerable voice.
 
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Ned_Flanders

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I think that the possibility is a lot higher than people think. The VFL is ripe for expansion and having Fitzroy back is something the AFL might want because it might bring back some of the old Fitzroy supporters who simply stopped following footy after 96.
But thats more realism, I think theorising is more fun.

But if Fitzroy got into the VFL can you see how opinions might change. The VFL is only one step away from the AFL, and Fitzroy getting back into the VFL is big news and would most certainly create a bandwagon. Fitzroy AFL dreams might go from pie-in-the-sky, to "is it possible?".
This might be partly why the AFL doesn't even want to near Fitzroy. This would probably even impact Brisbane into being more pro-Fitzroy as they have a considerable voice.
what criteria do you have for the notion the VFL is ripe for expansion?

only one of the VFL clubs is not vulnerable financially, and the talk of a stand alone reserves comp continues.
 

Rob

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One thing I always found a bit sad is that Fitzroy are languishing away in the amateurs (and not even the highest level of amateurs at that). They may not have been big enough to warrant a place in a national comp, but they obviously deserved a spot in the next tier.

In saying that, the VFL has become a bit of a joke anyway with all the reserves teams, so maybe Fitzroy don't actually have any ambitions of that.
 

FootyJunkie

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Wouldn't mind seeing an annual pre-season match in Melbourne between Brisbane and Sydney wearing the old Fitzroy and South Melbourne jumpers playing out at Brunswick St. (Lake Oval is a rectangular field these days, isn't it?) on a Saturday at 2pm.
 

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