Member Online Forum 9th Dec 2019

HARKER

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2008
49,988
77,267
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Yep.

Anyway the rumour suggests that SOS has been a very naughty boy - in the way of progress. Shame if true. Shame if this is all just part of a one sided pusch - I can understand people tiring of the too and fro on the issue though - I don't like having to sit on one end of a see saw - feeling like having to push against another side side of a see saw - each staring at supporters wearing the same colours.
The magician will have you looking at one hand whilst the other is performing the trick.

Sometimes it's even difficult knowing who the magician may be.............but he's there. Angier vs Borden? :)
 

Kruezing

All Australian
Mar 30, 2018
914
2,604
AFL Club
Carlton
The magician will have you looking at one hand whilst the other is performing the trick.

Sometimes it's even difficult knowing who the magician may be.............but he's there. Angier vs Borden? :)
And just when you think you’ve worked it out a tiny bubble appears in the tank ...
 

Accidental genius

Premiership Player
Apr 4, 2018
4,627
6,864
AFL Club
Carlton
Id say we went after wings as a position of need. Our options were Newnes and Ellis as primary, and Martin (who was already on the radar) could also play that role. Midseason we thought either could work - and in the end found Newnes would be a lot cheaper, and a lot less risk given contract term - so he made more practical sense for our squad.

I don't believe Liddle acted as a rogue and overruled the committee - if he did, Ellis would be on our list. A relationship is not a conflict. I'm sure Teague was in Eddie's ear, SOS was in Coniglios ear, Agresta was in Paley's ear, and Liddle was in Ellis' ear. This ain't rocket surgery
I was trying to make a case for Teague betts situation.

Based on last nights forum replies Liddle said he had majority vote to explore Ellis early on. I don’t know if he meant that later in the year he lost some support. I assume sos was against it from the start so I’m just saying why would liddle go through knowing a significant member of the list management team was against the idea. Ellis was not worth the chaos that has been created.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

SurreyBlue

Norm Smith Medallist
May 1, 2002
7,341
6,037
www.bluebaggers.com
AFL Club
Carlton
I know nothing of the truth of the Ellis/Betts/any other controversies. IMO they are completely irrelevant to SOS's departure.

SOS had to go. The conflict of interest was manifest. If Carlton are to compete in an increasingly professional sport then basic conflict of interest management must be inherent in the organisation.

It is patently obvious that as father of 2 players and father of a potential 3rd player no meaningful list management decision could be made by SOS that could not be interpreted as being done to favour his boys or, alternatively, done to avoid being seen to favour his boys.

Just put yourself in SOS's position. Imagine if he thought SOJ was just not worth a place on the list. Imagine how difficult telling SOJ that it was his decision that SOJ should piss off.

If Kemp comes good he is just the sort of player that might replace SOJ in the team. Was that why SOS was happy to swap pick 11, in the hope he would not be selected? Etc, etc.

The decision to cease with SOS was the only decision that could realistically have been made.

You want to parse Liddle's involvement with the recruitment of Ellis or Betts as "the real reason" SOS was "sacked". If it was then Liddle got lucky because terminating SOS as List Manager was the only thing that could have been done.
If SOS was going to protect Jack, he wouldn’t have traded for McGovern. So I call bulldust.
 
Nov 8, 2000
76,553
62,064
Ask me tomorrow
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Cronulla, Dallas Cowboys, Forest
Yep.

Anyway the rumour suggests that SOS has been a very naughty boy - in the way of progress. Shame if true. Shame if this is all just part of a one sided pusch - I can understand people tiring of the too and fro on the issue though - I don't like having to sit on one end of a see saw - feeling like having to push against another side side of a see saw - each staring at supporters wearing the same colours.
The rumour doesn't suggest anything other than MS3 is not happy with SOS if what he heard is true. Where it came from, and whether it is accurate is just more fodder for the discussion.
 

teagueyubeauty

Premiership Player
Oct 5, 2004
3,955
8,333
Somewhere there
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Liverpool, Yankees
But may not have agreed with chasing Ellis himself.
The Ellis situation was the absolute pillar of “SOS is good, Liddle is bad” argument for quite sometime, Liddle went behind his back, SOS knew absolutely nothing about it blah blah blah blah.The rhetoric of leaks coming from the SOS side of the fence ,I severely doubt SOS but those who know him.

It’s factually untrue, in fact, even if SOS hated the idea (which I highly doubt as ITK were saying a deal had been offered and when we missed cogs he came back wanting more and he was told to GAGF) the fact he absolutely knew is beyond doubt.

There are only 2more known arguments, Eddie Betts which was strongly rumoured as being the one that caused serious friction....there is a severe minority on this board who didn’t want him so the majority don’t agree with SOS flat out yet wish to use their conscious bias to gloss over it.

The last we know about is Deluca, the absolute overwhelming majority did not want another kid, Bolton was fighting for his life and the club under extreme pressure. He did play the last 6 games or so, clearly no one else was putting up their hand.

So we sit here going over and over how a guy who is absolutely killing it in his primary responsibilities/accountabilities needs to be shot just because....the club is united, clearly, because if it wasn’t they wouldn’t be shooting Bambi and keeping a “ring in” hanging around.

Some supporters of every club just feel the need to be angry about something even if the evidence stacks up that doesn’t support their view, conscious bias is alive and well in this SOS situation that is very clear.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Nov 8, 2000
76,553
62,064
Ask me tomorrow
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Cronulla, Dallas Cowboys, Forest
If Kemp comes good he is just the sort of player that might replace SOJ in the team. Was that why SOS was happy to swap pick 11, in the hope he would not be selected? Etc, etc.
Oh my ... so on the night, we thought he was a genius for doing what he did. Now to prove a COI, you're suggesting he was hoping to avoid Kemp but took him at #17 anyway ... why, to avoid scrutiny? You did note that no other team selected Kemp in the first 16 picks right?
 
Nov 8, 2000
76,553
62,064
Ask me tomorrow
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Cronulla, Dallas Cowboys, Forest
The Ellis situation was the absolute pillar of “SOS is good, Liddle is bad” argument for quite sometime, Liddle went behind his back, SOS knew absolutely nothing about it blah blah blah blah.The rhetoric of leaks coming from the SOS side of the fence ,I severely doubt SOS but those who know him.

It’s factually untrue, in fact, even if SOS hated the idea (which I highly doubt as ITK were saying a deal had been offered and when we missed cogs he came back wanting more and he was told to GAGF) the fact he absolutely knew is beyond doubt.

There are only 2more known arguments, Eddie Betts which was strongly rumoured as being the one that caused serious friction....there is a severe minority on this board who didn’t want him so the majority don’t agree with SOS flat out yet wish to use their conscious bias to gloss over it.

The last we know about is Deluca, the absolute overwhelming majority did not want another kid, Bolton was fighting for his life and the club under extreme pressure. He did play the last 6 games or so, clearly no one else was putting up their hand.

So we sit here going over and over how a guy who is absolutely killing it in his primary responsibilities/accountabilities needs to be shot just because....the club is united, clearly, because if it wasn’t they wouldn’t be shooting Bambi and keeping a “ring in” hanging around.

Some supporters of every club just feel the need to be angry about something even if the evidence stacks up that doesn’t support their view, conscious bias is alive and well in this SOS situation that is very clear.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
I think you are clearly on one side of the debate and that is fine. You are using a touch of hyperbole to paint anyone debating points in favour of SOS as biased. I can see both sides are equally to blame in that regard.

Some want Liddle 'shot', as in sacked. Others just want people at the club to stay in their lane and not cause unnecessary conflict within the club.

Liddle is killing it in his primary responsibilities, you're right. So was Silvagni though, yeah? He's no longer at the club.

If Silvagni knew about, and was fine with approaching Ellis, and he made an offer, and people seem keen to believe that Ellis did not ask for more money, then why did we withdraw our interest? I could see Silvagni withdrawing interest if he wasn't fine with getting him, but withdrawing for zero reason doesn't make any sense at all.

The evidence stacks up you think? I still can't see how being absent for discussions about 4% of our list was such an issue that we got rid of someone that was doing a fantastic job, when quality list managers are not easy to find. There has to be more to it than the official line, there just has to be.
 

slashin_velvet

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 5, 2011
6,967
11,612
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Dallas Cowboys, STL Blues
That's exactly what occured with Butler, why would Ellis be any different? I doubt we had any assurances from Martin and Papley when we initially spoke to Ellis.
Or thought Newnes wouldn't be as easy to get our of St Kilda
 

slashin_velvet

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 5, 2011
6,967
11,612
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Dallas Cowboys, STL Blues
We didn't make an offer to Butler though. We apparently had shown some commitment to Ellis. Butler didn't get a tour did he?
Butler was another where Agresta and SOS didn't seem like they had agreed on whether we would proceed. Early in trade week I recall Agresta saying Butler was an option and SOS stated we weren't very interested. They were rightly flagged by media as not being on the same page
Edit with link: https://www.sen.com.au/news/2019/09/09/blues-not-on-same-page-with-trade-targets-edmund/
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

JustaBattler

Everyone Looks Better In Blue
May 31, 2012
18,167
28,009
AFL Club
Carlton
The magician will have you looking at one hand whilst the other is performing the trick.

Sometimes it's even difficult knowing who the magician may be.............but he's there. Angier vs Borden? :)
As a rule I ignore all so called in the know 'info' ..
This SOS thing really got me - cos I like the bloke and what he has accomplished didnt liek the way he was characterised , didnt liek the whole situation - it all didnt and doesn't make sense to me. I dun like it. Time to let it go for me anyway - what is done is done.

2020 will sort a few things out.
 

KohPhi

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 24, 2015
18,847
61,311
AFL Club
Carlton
As a rule I ignore all so called in the know 'info' ..
This SOS thing really got me - cos I like the bloke and what he has accomplished didnt liek the way he was characterised , didnt liek the whole situation - it all didnt and doesn't make sense to me. I dun like it. Time to let it go for me anyway - what is done is done.

2020 will sort a few things out.
Hopefully after we smash the Tiges R.1, this whole shamozzle will be put to bed!
 

Stamos

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 30, 2010
11,894
15,845
AFL Club
Carlton
The rumour doesn't suggest anything other than MS3 is not happy with SOS if what he heard is true. Where it came from, and whether it is accurate is just more fodder for the discussion.
Not necessarily. His post was a bit ambiguous, it could be that we’re just replacing SOS with someone better
 

windows1

Club Legend
Sep 8, 2018
2,211
11,484
AFL Club
Carlton
You'd reckon the List Manager would have the right of veto, because after all it's his reputation on the line.

If everything is being decided by a committee I can see why SOS was frustrated. That sounds like excessive oversight to me.
I’m trying to balance myself up on this. Here’s what I think:

If you’re an executive you SHOULD expect to be questioned on the logic of your decisions by those above you. I have no problem with that.

If ‘being Questioned’ made SOS react negatively then I’ve no sympathy.

HOWEVER. I’ve seen on many occasion ‘questioning/challenging’ turn into ‘stepping in and over riding’. That’s just not on. If you’re not satisfied with the answers on a regular basis then sack the person. Don’t step in and micro manage.
 

Stamos

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 30, 2010
11,894
15,845
AFL Club
Carlton
Hopefully after we smash the Tiges R.1, this whole shamozzle will be put to bed!
As much as we all want to smash the Tiges in Round 1, even if we were to go on to win the flag, this whole shamozzle will only be put to bed after a good trade and draft period.
 

Garters

Senior List
Apr 12, 2019
199
628
AFL Club
Carlton
I’m trying to balance myself up on this. Here’s what I think:

If you’re an executive you SHOULD expect to be questioned on the logic of your decisions by those above you. I have no problem with that.

If ‘being Questioned’ made SOS react negatively then I’ve no sympathy.

HOWEVER. I’ve seen on many occasion ‘questioning/challenging’ turn into ‘stepping in and over riding’. That’s just not on. If you’re not satisfied with the answers on a regular basis then sack the person. Don’t step in and micro manage.
Exactly, back your people in or sack them. In between gets you nowhere
 
Nov 8, 2000
76,553
62,064
Ask me tomorrow
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Cronulla, Dallas Cowboys, Forest
Of course there’s more to it, you’d be blind Freddy if you didn’t see that.
The other stuff is not, and will not, be for public consumption.

That is to protect a legend of the club and the clubs best interests.
That's not a given. The other stuff could be protecting more than just SOS. It takes more than one to create a conflict surely?
 

Top Bottom