Member Online Forum 9th Dec 2019

mediumsizered

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 11, 2005
28,274
32,336
Queensland
AFL Club
Carlton
I'm not saying anything did or didn't happen, but surely you don't take all those responses to be truthful and transparent?
Yet you are happy to accept the scrawlings of some 2-bit journos & some "ITKs" as being truthful. Why do you perceive their information to be more reliable than that coming from the club? I can only see this being the case because it suits your view that SOS has been hard done by.
 

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mediumsizered

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 11, 2005
28,274
32,336
Queensland
AFL Club
Carlton
nothing to stop new itk posters from appearing - they just need to confirm their bonafides with a bit of credible info and bimbambom they're on the list......
And they will. It's all part of the staff turnover at a footy club. We've seen a few ITKs come & go across the journey as their source arrives at & then leaves the club. It might be possible to work out who the club source was after the passage of time, but who can be bothered?
 

mediumsizered

Brownlow Medallist
Nov 11, 2005
28,274
32,336
Queensland
AFL Club
Carlton
I don't believe Liddle acted as a rogue and overruled the committee - if he did, Ellis would be on our list. A relationship is not a conflict. I'm sure Teague was in Eddie's ear, SOS was in Coniglios ear, Agresta was in Papley's ear, and Liddle was in Ellis' ear. This ain't rocket surgery
Simple, yet it makes so much sense. Leverage your relationships. Newman probably also had a word in Papley's ear. Crippa would have had a chat to Martin. Those who were involved in making sure Martin stayed steadfast in getting to Carlton would have leveraged the arrival of Betts. When chasing McG last year, the opportunity to again work with Teague would have been part of the sales pitch.
 

slashin_velvet

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 5, 2011
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Simple, yet it makes so much sense. Leverage your relationships. Newman probably also had a word in Papley's ear. Crippa would have had a chat to Martin. Those who were involved in making sure Martin stayed steadfast in getting to Carlton would have leveraged the arrival of Betts. When chasing McG last year, the opportunity to again work with Teague would have been part of the sales pitch.
Eddie and McGovern have explicitly stated that the chance to work with Teague again was a motivator. Martin explicitly stated he had kept in touch with Cripps.
 

HARKER

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2008
49,988
77,267
Melbourne
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Carlton
As a rule I ignore all so called in the know 'info' ..
This SOS thing really got me - cos I like the bloke and what he has accomplished didnt liek the way he was characterised , didnt liek the whole situation - it all didnt and doesn't make sense to me. I dun like it. Time to let it go for me anyway - what is done is done.

2020 will sort a few things out.
It's got to all of us JaB but it's not the individual I'm pining about as much as for the 'ways' of our club.

Look at it this way; We started out our 66 game rebuild 4 years ago on a unified front. Since then:
List Manager - Effectively sacked for a variety of issues, including List Management. This was the guy whose statue we wanted to erect.
CEO - Trigg was the right person for the right time, taking us into a new territory for the club - SACKED.
Head of Football - McKay was there at the start but had to be asked to leave because we had bigger and better things in mind.
Coach - Bolton was our man. The guy who was going to be the long term coach leading us out of our abyss - SACKED.

So the key pillars in us getting the rebuild on the road are all gone, but only The President remains.
All this misfortune but the people that cannot be shifted are still in place, with a little tinkering around the edges and a little profile and character (Judd (?)) thrown into the mix.

They truly are wizards.
 

teagueyubeauty

Premiership Player
Oct 5, 2004
3,955
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On the contrary, as a club we stayed in a state of flux for years and decades on end doing the same things over and over again hoping for a different outcome.

It’s a performance based club now, with processes in place to ensure we are getting the best we can get at any particular time for any particular role.

I can argue quite easily Bolton, Trigg and SOS were absolutely the right appointments for the time but that doesn’t mean they end up being the best option a few years down the track.

I can easily argue now Teague is the right appointment and so is Liddle. At some point they probably won’t be the best options we can get at a particular time.

MLG and the board as a whole haven’t got everything right but they’ve been far better, more unified and driven by process than making decisions on a whim or even worse, not making any decisions in the hope personnel adapt or suddenly find the right formula to improve the club when they’ve been given multiple years to do so already.

There’s a lot of decisions the board led by MLG that just wouldn’t have been countenanced in previous regimes such as complete rebuild, reducing the ridiculous size of the boardroom and ensuring roles are filled in the board with skill sets needed and not because you’re trying to get on there to shore up numbers ie having 3 legal eagles on the board at the one time was deadset outrageous.

It’s the modern world to look at an area that hasn’t quite worked and focus entirely on it with a sense of outrage without looking at the entire picture as a whole and have some sort of balanced discussion. That’s what really gets up my goat


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

Stamos

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 30, 2010
11,894
15,846
AFL Club
Carlton
Yet you are happy to accept the scrawlings of some 2-bit journos & some "ITKs" as being truthful. Why do you perceive their information to be more reliable than that coming from the club? I can only see this being the case because it suits your view that SOS has been hard done by.
Because they’ve proven to be right.

They called it a long time before last Wednesday night when that press release was put on the Club website. The question is, why would you believe the Club’s spin over so many varied sources?
 

slashin_velvet

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 5, 2011
6,969
11,614
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Carlton
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On the contrary, as a club we stayed in a state of flux for years and decades on end doing the same things over and over again hoping for a different outcome.

It’s a performance based club now, with processes in place to ensure we are getting the best we can get at any particular time for any particular role.

I can argue quite easily Bolton, Trigg and SOS were absolutely the right appointments for the time but that doesn’t mean they end up being the best option a few years down the track.

I can easily argue now Teague is the right appointment and so is Liddle. At some point they probably won’t be the best options we can get at a particular time.

MLG and the board as a whole haven’t got everything right but they’ve been far better, more unified and driven by process than making decisions on a whim or even worse, not making any decisions in the hope personnel adapt or suddenly find the right formula to improve the club when they’ve been given multiple years to do so already.

There’s a lot of decisions the board led by MLG that just wouldn’t have been countenanced in previous regimes such as complete rebuild, reducing the ridiculous size of the boardroom and ensuring roles are filled in the board with skill sets needed and not because you’re trying to get on there to shore up numbers ie having 3 legal eagles on the board at the one time was deadset outrageous.

It’s the modern world to look at an area that hasn’t quite worked and focus entirely on it with a sense of outrage without looking at the entire picture as a whole and have some sort of balanced discussion. That’s what really gets up my goat
The board, yes. MLG, jury is still out for mine.

From the Lethlean appointment that the board blocked, to his recruiter mates suddenly popping up everywhere (both in our recruiting process and now on our board), to his Independent Nominations Committee (INC) - a handy was to block people you don't want from even being put forward to the members, to his failure to handle the egos and positional requirements of people he put in place.
 

Nori

Club Legend
Nov 16, 2014
1,606
3,824
AFL Club
Carlton
As does List Manager Extraordinaire, Stephen Wells. And yet you don't hear Geelong fans moaning about how he has to be part of a committee.

No issues with a sub-committee designed to bounce recruiting ideas around and make sure all angles are assessed. Ultimately, it'll come down to who is on the committee and how accommodating they are of differing opinions. CEO makes sense. GM of Football makes sense, GM of List Management makes sense, List Manager makes sense, Senior Coach makes sense, Head of Recruiting makes sense. Pres, Assistant Coaches, Fitness Boss etc. don't need to be involved.

More important than the roles though, is the individuals in them - if everyone at the table respects and values the input of the others, discussions will be productive. Veto should sit with the GM of List Management, but equally, the GM of List Management owes it to the collective to recognise if their own personal views are out of step with the others (ie. what happened with Betts). If that system can be implemented without rankling anyone, it'll reap rewards.
Yes, I agree that there is nothing wrong with a committee per se as long people who have a job to do are allowed to do their job. The committee should be there to make sure the work is being done to an acceptable standard and the direction of that work remains in alignment with the agreed strategy. I also think the committee could have a useful role in reviewing the performances of the list management team.

I guess my question was were people allowed to do their jobs unimpeded and were these jobs being done to an acceptable standard.

Anyway, what's done is done and we all move on with optimism for 2020 and beyond.
 

Blue__Balls

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 22, 2014
8,651
26,192
AFL Club
Carlton
Yes, I agree that there is nothing wrong with a committee per se as long people who have a job to do are allowed to do their job. The committee should be there to make sure the work is being done to an acceptable standard and the direction of that work remains in alignment with the agreed strategy. I also think the committee could have a useful role in reviewing the performances of the list management team.

I guess my question was were people allowed to do their jobs unimpeded and were these jobs being done to an acceptable standard.

Anyway, what's done is done and we all move on with optimism for 2020 and beyond.
Fair question, but I think the only way anyone gets an answer is if they manage to corner Liddle/Agresta/Teague one day and ask them outright to explain how the committee process works, and whether personnel changes were effected based on individuals failing/refusing to adhere to the process.
 

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Nori

Club Legend
Nov 16, 2014
1,606
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Fair question, but I think the only way anyone gets an answer is if they manage to corner Liddle/Agresta/Teague one day and ask them outright to explain how the committee process works, and whether personnel changes were effected based on individuals failing/refusing to adhere to the process.
Yes, we will probably never know for sure. At least the club is clear on what the members think of the negative scenario.
 

AlecDuncan

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 4, 2005
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MLG and the board as a whole haven’t got everything right but they’ve been far better, more unified and driven by process than making decisions on a whim or even worse, not making any decisions in the hope personnel adapt or suddenly find the right formula to improve the club when they’ve been given multiple years to do so already.
That's one of the main thing that irks me about this situation - the uncharacteristically poor judgement behind this decision.

It's disruptive, counter-productive, and completely unnecessary. Why not give SOS his remaining year unmolested with notice that in 2021 we'll go in a different direction? It would have cost the club nothing except his salary. SOS would have gone knowing his compact with the club had been fulfilled. The non-existent conflict of interest issue would still be non-existent. We'd have his services for another year. Nothing would have been adversely affected except maybe Liddle's nose joint.

Now we have significant member rancor, sudden distrust between supporters and the administration, a gaping hole where there was an industry-leading list manager, and heck knows what it's done to morale inside the club. All for what? Someone's ego.
 

Metalcrusher

Bush Chook
Jan 22, 2015
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I’m trying to balance myself up on this. Here’s what I think:

If you’re an executive you SHOULD expect to be questioned on the logic of your decisions by those above you. I have no problem with that.

If ‘being Questioned’ made SOS react negatively then I’ve no sympathy.

HOWEVER. I’ve seen on many occasion ‘questioning/challenging’ turn into ‘stepping in and over riding’. That’s just not on. If you’re not satisfied with the answers on a regular basis then sack the person. Don’t step in and micro manage.
You in management too Windows?
 

slashin_velvet

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 5, 2011
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That's one of the main thing that irks me about this situation - the uncharacteristically poor judgement behind this decision.

It's disruptive, counter-productive, and completely unnecessary. Why not give SOS his remaining year unmolested with notice that in 2021 we'll go in a different direction? It would have cost the club nothing except his salary. SOS would have gone knowing his compact with the club had been fulfilled. The non-existent conflict of interest issue would still be non-existent. We'd have his services for another year. Nothing would have been adversely affected except maybe Liddle's nose joint.

Now we have significant member rancor, sudden distrust between supporters and the administration, a gaping hole where there was an industry-leading list manager, and heck knows what it's done to morale inside the club. All for what? Someone's ego.
How do you know this hasn't had the opposite impact of your hypothetical?

What if Silvagni's contract (which was due to end now) was the only thing stopping us from asking him to step aside last season?
What if his relationship with Bolton and other senior staff was toxic, and he didnt change after being asked to do so?
What if Caro was right, and SOS was granted too much power by the president?
 

slashin_velvet

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 5, 2011
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You mean, "How do I not know this hasn't had the opposite impact of your hypothetical?"

Because the club chose to release a weasel excuse instead of saying the things you just listed.
You know what I mean, and if we're diving down to those depths, then good luck to you.

Maybe weasel words were needed to not besmirch the name of SOS in public. Maybe we've actually shown him a modicum of respect in this.....the likes of which we don't give to most other staff. Also means we haven't limited his future opportunities.

At the end of the day, we don't actually know the day to day impact he was having. The fact he wasn't retained suggests he might have been hard to work with - which might also form the traits of a strong negotiator.
 

Gethelred

Norm Smith Medallist
May 1, 2016
9,083
18,003
AFL Club
Carlton
Because what's coming from the club is 100% false. Good odds for even a journalist to beat.
Huh?

That there was a conflict is 100% true, and (while SOS was there) 100% unavoidable; that's why it's the public story.

See, this is why people are getting shitty. What's coming from the club isn't bullshit; it might not be all of the truth, but it's a part of it. However, people are reacting as though they're being confronted with Soviet Russia levels of propaganda, and that believing it would be akin to taking poison. Journalists (who are trying to sell you something, and have a vested interest in getting you angry) have no particular merit as far as the truth goes, either.

Ultimately, people will believe what they want to believe; belief is what it is, because we cannot know without being inside.
 
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Gethelred

Norm Smith Medallist
May 1, 2016
9,083
18,003
AFL Club
Carlton
Just a pissweak answer frankly. Kill it off.

“SOS knew I was taking him on a tour.”

Issue dead.
This is why no-one trusts people who are in marketing. They make even the truth seem dubious.

SOS was in list management; he would have been a part of the team who made this decision. Liddle's phrasing makes it sound dodgy.
 

AlecDuncan

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 4, 2005
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That there was a conflict is 100% true, and (while SOS was there) 100% unavoidable; that's why it's the public story.
It was a contrived rationalisation to provide cover for the administration, nothing more. Neither kid is getting traded or delisted in 2020, and Jack is contracted beyond then anyway.

If you need proof of that then consider that if there's a conflict of interest now in December 2019, then there was one exactly the same in November 2018. So according to the club's logic, they knew a year ago they needed to remove SOS and should have been pursiing replacements since. So where's the replacement? I'll wait. No rush (the club obviously doesn't think there's one).
 
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Gethelred

Norm Smith Medallist
May 1, 2016
9,083
18,003
AFL Club
Carlton
It was a contrived rationalisation to provide cover for the administration, nothing more. Neither kid is getting traded or delisted in 2020, and Jack is contracted beyond then anyway.
I don't know what to say to you, Alec, other than der.

What exactly makes you think that you are entitled to knowing every and all reasons about any particular decision the club makes?
 

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