Toast Memory Lane: Phil Carman

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Phil Carman

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Imagine a mature age recruit finally joining the top league and arriving at Collingwood at the tender age of 24.

They're a good player - they get a game in their first season, they actually get 15 games, and only injury stops them from getting more.

They're so incredibly unbelievably good that they take out the Copeland in their first season.

That's how good 'fabulous' Phil Carmen was in his first season with us in 1975.

And just to put things into perspective: imagine if Sammy Dwyer had taken out the Copeland in 2013. And got within 3 votes of taking out the Brownlow. With 6 fewer games.

Carman came to us from Norwood in the SANFL.

We knew then that he was a fantastic mark of the footy ...



... and a hardline enforcer who could make a North Korean dictator blush.



And once he arrived at Collingwood he wasted no time in assembling contents for a highlights reel:



Phil Carman ended up playing four seasons for Collingwood from 1975 to 1978.

Here's a Mike Sheehan "Open Mike" interview with the man himself; the interview was recorded in 2012:



Phil Carman was awarded life membership of the Collingwood Footy Club at the 2012 AGM.
 
The thoughts of a BigFooty poster 10 years ago ...

The first time I heard of the name Phil Carman it was in the early 70s in the context of some footballer who came from Edenhope, played in the SANFL but refused to come over to Victoria to play even though he was tied to Collingwood after a short pre-season stint as a teenager. Didn’t think too much of him as I had heard it all before. These were players who would never come over (read Barrie Robran) or needed a huge cash inducement to come over and invariably they were blonde and overrated (read Peter Eakins).

It came to be that in June 1974 Phil Carman was selected to play for South Australia against Victoria at the SCG where Len Thompson was captain of the team and Neil Mann was the coach of Victoria. This game was played on a Sunday which happened to be the day after John Greening's comeback game against Richmond at the MCG where we walloped the Tigers by 69 points and Bill Picken took the mark of the year and Greening was arguably B.O.G. (I hope you are reading Ed!).

Came the Sunday and we had a direct telecast of the match on the TV. Carman blitzed (I think on Geoff Southby but I may be wrong) and I think kicked 4 goals from full forward and South Australia pushed Victoria pretty hard.

He impressed the Collingwood people so much that they then pulled out all stops to get him over for 1975. Everyone thought that it was too late for Carman to come over as he would be 24 years of age when he started his League career.

He did arrive with huge fanfare. We had a new coach in Murray Weideman and some young players coming through such as Peter Moore and John Dellamarta. Robert Hyde was playing like a champion and commenced the year in Copeland form until Leigh Matthews caused Hyde to do his cruciate ligaments a la Geoff Raines on Paul Salmon and Hyde missed the last 12 or so games of the year.

Carman started his Collingwood career against South Melbourne at Vic Park in the rain. All Magpie eyes were scrutinizing his every move as there was much hype surrounding him. Did a couple of nice things but nothing over the top but looked like a balanced player.

The next game was against Carlton. We were thrashed but one of our best was Carman and he took a little bit of a speccy in front of the old wooden stand. Still no raptures.

This was until we meandered to the R3 game against Fitzroy at the Junction Oval. Carman played CHF that day. There was a strong wind blowing to the scoreboard end. Carman dominated the game in a way I had never seen a Collingwood CHF dominate in my football watching life up to that day. He kicked 6 goals from CHF and we won by two points coming home against the wind in a display that had class stamped all over it. We got our first inkling we had something special here.

He continued to play good football so much so that he was selected to represent Victoria in the State Carnival which was played on two week ends about 6 weeks apart. In this game Carman played against SA at VFL Park and was dominating until he broke his foot in the second quarter and was to miss six weeks of football. It was to prove a very costly injury as he ended coming third in the Brownlow Medal that year in a year when both umpired awarded individual votes and the winner won with 48 votes (Gary Dempsey).

Collingwood were a little fragile in 1975 and we copped a whole lot of injuries during June including Carman, Hyde, and Peter McKenna who in the Queens Birthday game v. Melbourne went goalless for the first time in 120 games and we went down to Melbourne who were not a very strong team. Injuries had taken their toll the week before against Hawthorn (which was Graeme Anderson's first game) and even Lou Richards quipped when previewing the Melbourne game and looking at the number of injuries we had, he had seen better sides hanging in the Johnston Street Butcher shop he use to visit.

McKenna was dropped and then hurt his kidneys in the Reserves v South at VFL Park the following week and was never to play another game apart from three practice matches in 1977 for the Pies again.

Carman eventually came back but it took him some time to get into some form. The Pies came good towards the end of the season and had a reasonable win against Essendon in R19 where Carman seemed to get some rhythm back. We were fighting St. Kilda for a spot in the finals and were to play them the following week at Moorabbin in what was to be the equivalent of an eight point game.

I stood behind the South Road end goals and watched one of the most exciting game I have the privilege of witnessing. It was a high scoring entertaining affair with the Saints kicking 9 goals to our 5 in the opening quarter. We were from that point on 4 goals down most of the day. Carman who wore his white boots for the first time was playing well and had 5 goals to three quarter time. George Young was playing almost as well as FF for the Saints. He ended the day with 8 goals.

In the last quarter we came home to the South Road end. It was the most amazing quarter of football I have seen the Pies play. We kicked 11 goals for the quarter with Carman booting 6. He had Barry Lawrence mesmerized. Every tine the ball came down to Carman during that quarter the Collingwood crowd became frenzied and on each occasion he won the ball and invariably it ended up as a goal for Collingwood. We turned a 23 point deficit to a 19 pot win 156 - 137.

There was no video in those days so I have about three minutes off highlight tape of the TV on a super 8 film camera.

From that point on the whole football world knew about Phil Carman.

We then went on to defeat Hawthorn in the wet in R21 and scraped in against Melbourne to win our place in the five. We were unlucky to lose against Richmond in the EF by 4 points after being 32 points down at half time. Bill Picken who had been switched to CHB only 4 weeks earlier dominated the game for the Pies even with torn shoulder ligaments and stamped himself as a great finals player of the future.

Everything was optimistic for 1976 after our spirited performances in 1975 but it was not to be. Weideman was a lazy coach. Ern Clarke was not a good president. They clashed. There was trouble within the club. Wayne Richardson lost the captaincy with Tuddenham's return, the Richardsons were suspended by the club after being dropped and not playing in the seconds against Hawthorn in R3. Carman was seen as being aloof by the rest of the players (which he was) and these comments about him would haunt him for the rest of his career. It must have had something to do with his genius that he had a major flaw, and one I am sure he regrets today.

We won the spoon with a record highest number of wins for a wooden spoon team of 6. We weren’t really a wooden spoon team but for he trouble within the club.

Came 1977 with a few handy additions. Tom Hafey as coach, Kevin Worthington, Stan Magro and Ricky Barham.

Tuddy played the first two games but retired at the age of 34. John Greening wet to Port Melbourne after losing his enthusiasm for the elite level (you a-hole Jim O’Dea).

We climbed to the top of the ladder with Carman dominating at CHF, Rene Kink being a roving FF and Peter Moore being the big goal kicker. How great it would have been if we hadn’t gotten rid of Peter McKenna and he was in that forward line too.

We had a quiet start until we thrashed Carlton at Waverley by 102 points a Moor kicked his first bag. (I have highlights of this game on super 8 too).

Carman was the lynchpin of our game with many helpers. But it all revolved around his mercurial ability. He took lots of pressure off other players. He was kicking goals of the day, taking marks of the day, having a scuffle or two but generally doing a fantastic job for the Pies.

Come the finals and he got us going with the first two goals of the 2SF v Hawthorn which was seen as a GF preview. He then did the unthinkable and clocked Michael Tuck for no reason in the Q1. He was a goner. He disappeared from the game until the last quarter when he again came to the fore and won the game for the Pies in a 2 point victory.

Would he be allowed to play in the GF when the Hawks defeated North in the PF as expected? No, he go two weeks and to everyone’s surprise North won their way through to the GF very convincingly.

We all know if Carman had played we would have won the flag. He didn’t and we drew. Carman appealed his suspension to see if he could play in the Replay on the basis that the suspension was for one GF and not 2 GFs. No dice.

North won and Tom Hafey never forgave Carman. He bagged him a t sportsman’s nights saying he cost us the flag with a stupid selfish act.

There was bad blood between Hafey and Carman which spilt over into the 1978 season where we again made the finals but were very inconsistent.

Carman had some very good games and some very bad games. He missed the game against Essendon at Windy Hill supposedly injured but dropped for disciplinary reason. Even his then wife Betty Carman weighed into the dispute and had a go at Hafey in the media.

They patched things up (sort of) leading up to the finals and Carman was picked on the bench for the QF where we were creamed by Hawthorn. He cam on half way thru the second quarter and tried to revive us but it was all too late.

He tore Carlton a new one in the 1SF and was one of our best players as well as sucking in a number of players such as Wayne Harmes.

But he again flopped in the PF where we lost to North by two goals. He was part of the clean out after that game along with Thompson and Max Richardson. We traded him to Melbourne with Wayne Gordon and John Dellamarta for Ross Brewer.

He was an enigma. He was mercurial. He was at times unstoppable and times so stupid.

He was Phil Carman.
 

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jonbe54

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I still remember the back page of the Sun after his 11 goals, a photo of him shining his white boots and the caption

CARMANWOOD
I remember him getting rubbed out, time after time after time because he had no self control or common sense.

Sensationally talented footballer with a brain the size of a pea when it came to withstanding insults and niggling.
 
If he had some self control we would have won multiple premierships in his career (he was that good) such a tremendous waste of glorious footballing talent. :(


and won us the 77 Flag and would of won Many Copelands and Won a Few Brownlows
 

Hinequarters

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I remember him getting rubbed out, time after time after time because he had no self control or common sense.

Sensationally talented footballer with a brain the size of a pea when it came to withstanding insults and niggling.


Yep most talented player without a brain I've ever seen
 
Jan 12, 2011
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Carman was one of those players that, if he decided he was going to play on a given day, was unstoppable

He had the most talent of any player I have ever seen wearing the Black and White (and I include Buckley, Greening and Thompson)
Some of the things I saw him do I cannot put into words.

People wrongly suggest (particularly those who never saw him play) that he was always undisciplined on the field and nothing could be further from the truth, what he was, was an individual playing in a team sport and on a few rare occasions he got frustrated with his own failings, and on those occasions he did some (Heath Shaw type) stupid things.

In relation to fitness he was years ahead of his time, his skills would be a talking point if he were playing today and he often won a game on his own, which ironically became his ultimate undoing.

Phil Carman was an enigma, the likes of which we will never see again.
 

jonbe54

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Carman was one of those players that, if he decided he was going to play on a given day, was unstoppable

He had the most talent of any player I have ever seen wearing the Black and White (and I include Buckley, Greening and Thompson)
Some of the things I saw him do I cannot put into words.

People wrongly suggest (particularly those who never saw him play) that he was always undisciplined on the field and nothing could be further from the truth, what he was, was an individual playing in a team sport and on a few rare occasions he got frustrated with his own failings, and on those occasions he did some (Heath Shaw type) stupid things.

In relation to fitness he was years ahead of his time, his skills would be a talking point if he were playing today and he often won a game on his own, which ironically became his ultimate undoing.

Phil Carman was an enigma, the likes of which we will never see again.
How stupid is it abusing an umpire face to face at the top of your voice? - I too watched him and yes he was capable of playing decently balanced football, BUT comparing him to Heath's tantrums is like comparing a penny bunger to a stick of dynamite.

When Phil lost it, there was no idea of restraint.

And he lost it at bad times, its no use being a super talent if your temper makes you a liability in crisis situations.

GREAT player with an astonishing talent, fantastic athlete BUT no self control.
 
He just oozed talent, we had seen nothing like him when he arrived. He had the physical attributes of Greening plus attitude to spare. In his 1st season he just seemed unbeatable. It wasn't until the game late in the season against Melbourne at Vic Park that his Achilles heal was revealed. Up to that point back men must have been tearing their hair out coming up with plans to hold him.

In that match Ray Biffen, Melbournes tough full back, gave him a belt to go on with. Biffen belted forwards all the time and this wasn't anything too severe but Carmen just went off. Lost the plot completely and wanted to kill Biffen. From that time on he was the same mercurial talent but people knew he could be got. Before that he appeared unstoppable.

Loved watching Carmen at his best more than anyone. That belt to Tucky in 1977 cost us a flag and was so unprovoked and unnecessary. Loved you Phil bit what a waste you were.
 

Robroy22

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I often think of old time players and how they'd go in today's game but "Fabulous Phil" was one who I'd have no doubt would still be capable of dominating games right now. He was the archetypical modern footballer but the trouble was he was being expected to play in a time of dinosaurs. In today's game Carman would be protected by the three umpires, he wouldn't have defenders holding onto him, whacking his head every time he went for marks, nor would he be verbally abused and goaded into frivolous square ups. Carman would excel in today's harmogenized game.
He had the perfect build, 6'3 and an absolute running machine. He could take marks in packs or on the lead and was better on the ground than Buddy. He could play FF, CHF or run on the ball and his ability with the ball in hand made him almost unstoppable when his mind was on the job. Someone like Carman would be the perfect foil for Travis Cloke right now because he drew several defenders to him wherever he went. 1:1 he was almost as devastating as Daicos because of his speed and skill set.
I don't partake of the theory that Phil was a loose cannon. He was unable to deal with the attention he was getting sometimes but it was at a time of great upheaval within the club and the leadership group that should have been supporting a young star simply wasn't up to the task. In fact Carman was labelled a loner and left to deal with the pressures thrust upon him, himself. The fact that he trained differently (harder) than those around him, didn't like to partake of the beer culture at the club during that period and then had inconsistent games meant that the Collingwood faithful turned on Fab Phil quicker than they do on most.
Can you think of another Pies Player that has caused so many words to be written about him after only a 4 year stint at the club? Phil Carman was a walking headline.
 

jonbe54

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I often think of old time players and how they'd go in today's game but "Fabulous Phil" was one who I'd have no doubt would still be capable of dominating games right now. He was the archetypical modern footballer but the trouble was he was being expected to play in a time of dinosaurs. In today's game Carman would be protected by the three umpires, he wouldn't have defenders holding onto him, whacking his head every time he went for marks, nor would he be verbally abused and goaded into frivolous square ups. Carman would excel in today's harmogenized game.
He had the perfect build, 6'3 and an absolute running machine. He could take marks in packs or on the lead and was better on the ground than Buddy. He could play FF, CHF or run on the ball and his ability with the ball in hand made him almost unstoppable when his mind was on the job. Someone like Carman would be the perfect foil for Travis Cloke right now because he drew several defenders to him wherever he went. 1:1 he was almost as devastating as Daicos because of his speed and skill set.
I don't partake of the theory that Phil was a loose cannon. He was unable to deal with the attention he was getting sometimes but it was at a time of great upheaval within the club and the leadership group that should have been supporting a young star simply wasn't up to the task. In fact Carman was labelled a loner and left to deal with the pressures thrust upon him, himself. The fact that he trained differently (harder) than those around him, didn't like to partake of the beer culture at the club during that period and then had inconsistent games meant that the Collingwood faithful turned on Fab Phil quicker than they do on most.
Can you think of another Pies Player that has caused so many words to be written about him after only a 4 year stint at the club? Phil Carman was a walking headline.
I agree with some of you points Rob but in the final washup it comes down to discipline and self control, no athlete can make it at the elite level without it, he never learnt to curb his retaliation and so went the way of the foolhardy, wasting his talent and leaving a legacy of ambivilent feelings from those who - had he managed more self control - would have honoured him as the greatest player ever to have pulled on the stripes. Perhaps potentially the greatest player of the modern era, but alas he lacked the focus to be so.
 

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Robroy22

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I take your point re: his lack of self discipline, but I can't place him above Johnny Greening in terms of ability. Phil's on my third rung of Pies ability. He's up there with Bucks (in ability...not discipline) but Greening was just the total package until his unfortunate demise. Bobby Rose and Daicos sit comfortably on my second tier.
 
I often think of old time players and how they'd go in today's game but "Fabulous Phil" was one who I'd have no doubt would still be capable of dominating games right now. He was the archetypical modern footballer but the trouble was he was being expected to play in a time of dinosaurs. In today's game Carman would be protected by the three umpires, he wouldn't have defenders holding onto him, whacking his head every time he went for marks, nor would he be verbally abused and goaded into frivolous square ups. Carman would excel in today's harmogenized game.

I like that.:thumbsu:
 

jonbe54

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I take your point re: his lack of self discipline, but I can't place him above Johnny Greening in terms of ability. Phil's on my third rung of Pies ability. He's up there with Bucks (in ability...not discipline) but Greening was just the total package until his unfortunate demise. Bobby Rose and Daicos sit comfortably on my second tier.
I agree on exposed talent you would have to put Greening at the pinnacle of players to don the stripes in modern times with Daics just below. I just always got the feeling that Phil was never as focussed as he could have been.

He was so explosive and athletically so far ahead of most players of his day that he could loaf and still leave most in his dust.

So sad he never realized his astonishing potential.
 
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Loved watching Carmen at his best more than anyone. That belt to Tucky in 1977 cost us a flag and was so unprovoked and unnecessary. Loved you Phil bit what a waste you were.


Yep, heard him on Open Mike trying to justify it as him just being pumped up from kicking a goal and setting another up. Was shocked at how indifferent he seemed, either he's blocked it out after being reminded of it it for 35 years or after all these years still can't comprehend football is a team game, costing his team in '77 and probably another in the late 70's/early 80's.

Said that Tommy should have kept him but really, after 4 clubs in 6 years you have to be fairly thick not to realise he was the problem.
 

Hinequarters

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Yep, heard him on Open Mike trying to justify it as him just being pumped up from kicking a goal and setting another up. Was shocked at how indifferent he seemed, either he's blocked it out after being reminded of it it for 35 years or after all these years still can't comprehend football is a team game, costing his team in '77 and probably another in the late 70's/early 80's.
In fact at a dinner at the club he got up and talked about his time at Collingwood and all he could talk about were the fights, he was like a little kid when he remembered them, he didn't give a s**t about the footy.. his entire ego was caught up in those barneys
 

jonbe54

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In fact at a dinner at the club he got up and talked about his time at Collingwood and all he could talk about were the fights, he was like a little kid when he remembered them, he didn't give a s**t about the footy.. his entire ego was caught up in those barneys
Yes a strange bloke indeed, despite his astonishing talent would not be tolerated in todays football.
 

jonbe54

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I'm not sure its fair to highlight a few well publicised incidents and then draw a conclusion that Carman did those things every time he went out to play, its just not true.
Jack I doubt anyone is saying Phil carried on like a pork chop every time he went out there, but he certainly was a firecracker and he went off too often.

As as been noted 4 clubs in 6 years is the telling statistic.

A magnificent talent wasted due to lack of self control.
 
In fact at a dinner at the club he got up and talked about his time at Collingwood and all he could talk about were the fights, he was like a little kid when he remembered them, he didn't give a s**t about the footy.. his entire ego was caught up in those barneys

I was on a charity ride this year wher we rode Postie motorbikes from Perth to Melb for prostate cancer. David Parkin was on the ride also. We stopped at East Gambier FC in Mount Gambier and they did a charity night with us. Phil Carmen was their coach and he spoke really well. Admitted he made mistakes at Collingwood and attributed blame to himself.

He has put a lot into country footy as a coach over the years. Still super fit and looks like he could still play at age 63. There is no doubt is isn't the average footy guy, not a drinker etc but deserves credit for his coaching which has been successful. He has since lefr East Gambier after 1 yr of a 2 year contractsuddenly. He cited family reasons for pulling out and has since been signed to coach Sebastapol hear Ballarat. Doesn't seen anything is simple when it comes to Phil

One of the guys on the ride I did wnet up to Phil and got him to sign one of our ride T shirts for me knowing I was a Pie nut. I had been going on about how Carmen cost us the 77 flag. Where he signed he left a footnote on the T shirt saying "Sorry about Tucky"
 

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