Mentality

[kelvin_sheedy]

It's no secret that Knights and co have stated many times that this year is another year in the development of youth down at Windy Hill. Horsborough and others have stated that 10,11,12 will be when we look to seriously challenge.

Is this the right mentality considering how close the competition is?

Have we put out the best team each week and given ourselves every chance of winning? We have lost games that we should have won against North and Adelaide. If we had a win at all costs mentality we might have won those games.

Hypothetically we could be 7-4 and aiming for a top 4 birth. We have a pretty good run home and with a win at all costs mentality we might have been able to shock and sneak into the top 4.

Would this have been a better development approach? Who would have suffered in their development if this was the case?

 

[Ben the Gooner]

What changes would you have made?

 

[Red Black and Blue]

6 out of the top 7 teams to come and 3 interstate trips... We actually have a pretty shit run home.

 

[BringBackCransberg]

It is a close comp, but there's a Pacific sized gulf between 2nd and 3rd, and perhaps an Atlantic between 1st and 2nd. I think when they are talking about 10, 11 and 12, they're talking Geelong-standard. We saw how far away we are from that.

Developing to that standard - I think we do go in each game trying to win, because making the 8 is the priority, and as the competition is so close, the points are always vital. But, you're right, the coaches do have a corner of one eye on the future (if that's what you're saying).

I think we'd be better off developing our players by having a youth policy through the season, which should give them a taste of finals, but probably not deep finals (which could come with a top 4 finish, which would probably require foregoing youth policies, match fitness AFL games, etc). That is, I think the season development is better than whatever development they'd get out of playing deep finals, from a long term view. I don't think we should be enticed by the possibility of snagging a flag. Anyone can do that (Hawthorn), but Essendon is a team of eras. I want another era, and I think "seasonal" development will better the chances of that. Because the comp is so close, we still need to try to win every game, but with an eye on the future, so that Geelong don't dominate forever, and so that premierships aren't left to chance.

All the close games we won in the first half of the season could have gone the other way - then I doubt we'd worry about having an eye on the future. I'm really happy with Knights' digging in for the long term - I feel sorry for Sheedy, for the pressure he always had from the board to make finals each year. Now that we're seeing the upside of Knights' long term approach, let's not put the pressure on him to make deep finals just yet.

 

[cAsEy_18]

Hypothetically we could be 7-4 and aiming for a top 4 birth. We have a pretty good run home and with a win at all costs mentality we might have been able to shock and sneak into the top 4.

I see where you're coming from, but have to disagree with 2 things here.
a) The general opinion of the topic - When it has come to the clutch in both the Adelaide game and the North Melbourne game, were our guys not trying as hard to win because of what our coach said during the preseason? I doubt it. Referring specifically to the Adelaide game, they just played very very good footy in the last quarter and were the better side when the game was to be won.

b) We have one of the worst draws i have seen in a long time.

 

[Smyth94]

6 out of the top 7 teams to come and 3 interstate trips... We actually have a pretty shit run home.

Honestly I'd be seriously disappointed if we lost to either WCE or Freo irregardless if its at Subiaco.

6 out of the top 7 teams - there's nothing separating 4th from 11/12th at the moment. I think the difficulty of our run home is overrated.

 

[reincarnated]

It's no secret that Knights and co have stated many times that this year is another year in the development of youth down at Windy Hill. Horsborough and others have stated that 10,11,12 will be when we look to seriously challenge.

Is this the right mentality considering how close the competition is?

Have we put out the best team each week and given ourselves every chance of winning? We have lost games that we should have won against North and Adelaide. If we had a win at all costs mentality we might have won those games.

1) He also says that every club should aim for finals if they are worth their salt. (ie. we are aiming to play finals).

2) Game doesn't know how old you are. (ie. Nothing is stopping young players from stepping up and playing good football as he would be giving every chance for deserving youngsters.)

So personally I was dissapointed Lucas and Skipworth were played ahead of Daniher and Jetta against Adelaide. (Daniher played an important part in the win against Carlton and Jetta against Collingwood.)

If you look at the inclusions against North, Geelong and Adelaide, leading up to all these games, only thing everyone was talking about is the depth we have, and the senior players who are being included are going to help us win. We lost all these three games.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

What changes would you have made?

NLM and Houli would have been given a go instead of Myers and Quinn early in the season.

I wouldn't have selected that many underdone players against Adelaide.

In terms of list management I would have kept Peverill on for another year to provide depth in case we had injuries which we have.

Using Stanton to tag Harvey of North is a massive no no for me.

I would have made a lot more moves on certain players early. The Lucas on Tippet move was a disaster and it was always going to be that. Daniher should have been given a game or Pears should have gone to him early.

So many little things throughout the season that says to me we are more keen on experimenting rather than going into the season with a win at all costs attitude. For me it's the wrong mentality to have in a situation where you need to ingrain into every player a win at all costs attitude.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Honestly I'd be seriously disappointed if we lost to either WCE or Freo irregardless if its at Subiaco.

6 out of the top 7 teams - there's nothing separating 4th from 11/12th at the moment. I think the difficulty of our run home is overrated.

Don't think we will lose to either in Subiaco, but the week after is normally a hard one for teams, especially considering its Brisbane and the Doggies.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

If you look at the inclusions against North, Geelong and Adelaide, leading up to all these games, only thing everyone was talking about is the depth we have, and the senior players who are being included are going to help us win. We lost all these three games.

Not really. There were a fair few on this board (more sensible) banging their heads about the selections of the North and Adelaide game.

 

[Duckworth]

Not really. There were a fair few on this board (more sensible) banging their heads about the selections of the North and Adelaide game.

The selections were done with the intention of winning. I think you are referring to the selections of players with questionable match fitness. Some of these were forced due to injury... others with a view to bringing in senior experience.

I think our mentality is right. We are developing younger players and they are getting games and experience early in this year. We have given ourselves a realistic chance of playing finals. Although we are not in the league of the top contenders we are heading in the right direction. We don't need to be peaking now...

 

[stay true]

I think we've got the right mentality. Knight's is keen on the idea of playing guys who earn their spot rather than by reputation which I think is important.

Injuries have forced us into a lot of decisions and it's really shown what our youngsters are all about. Pears and Ryder have been sensational and Hooker has shown quite abit too, not to mention Zaharakis and Hurley have shown a bit too.

I'd love for us to be playing finals as much as the next bloke, and I'll be dissapointed if we miss out, but I don't think it's the end of the world as long as we win more games than last year.

So yeah, I'm happy with the way Knights has gone about it.

 

[GmeUP]

6 out of the top 7 teams to come and 3 interstate trips... We actually have a pretty shit run home.

3 of which we've already beaten and the Saints who we were very competitive against. 2 of those interstate trips are in WA where u can bank on atleast 1 win if not 2. We also have the bottom 2 sides and Brisbane @ the Dome. I don't think our draws that bad at all and it's far from unrealistic to expect atleast 6-5 in the back half to get us a realistic finals chance at 11-11.

 

[Godzke]

3 of which we've already beaten and the Saints who we were very competitive against. 2 of those interstate trips are in WA where u can bank on atleast 1 win if not 2. We also have the bottom 2 sides and Brisbane @ the Dome. I don't think our draws that bad at all and it's far from unrealistic to expect atleast 6-5 in the back half to get us a realistic finals chance at 11-11.

i've quoted this post but there's a number of them in this thread.

what the hell is this attitude "you can bank on a win here" or "i'd be seriously disappointed if we didnt win at subiaco"??!!

WAKE UP!

THE COMPETITION IS TOO CLOSE TO CALL FOR MOST MATCHES LET ALONE PREDICTING "EASY" WINS FOR US!

Jesus. Saints, Cats and maybe the Dogs are the only ones that have the right to be called favourites when travelling. Some teams, like collingwood, have an exceptional record when travelling ... BUT NOT ESSENDON.

So stop talking shit ... wake up to reality ... and understand that knights doesn't give a rats arse where we finish this year as long as he can put his young chargers through its paces week in week out and to instill the attacking mentality that this young mob are starting to show.

That means screwing up some weeks by trying to be to cute handballing and intensely exciting in others when the rythym gets going. You cannot predict where essendon (and a lot of other clubs) are going to pick up points let alone "bank" on "guaranteed" wins here and there.

the only games i've shown some level of confidence winning is against richmond and against melbourne this coming round. but that's it. my next two that i had confidence were the Kangas and Brisbane*!

*: because they were down on form and we seemed to be "up" on form.

 

[daffo]

Our club and players have said that they are shooting for finals this year. Mentally we are prepared for that. Kangs game has really hurt us I think, Ade beat us, they were great on the day.
If you are going to talk about 'what ifs' then you should also consider our wins against Carl and Coll may of been loses.

 

[Shane Hird]

It is a close comp, but there's a Pacific sized gulf between 2nd and 3rd, and perhaps an Atlantic between 1st and 2nd. I think when they are talking about 10, 11 and 12, they're talking Geelong-standard. We saw how far away we are from that.

Developing to that standard - I think we do go in each game trying to win, because making the 8 is the priority, and as the competition is so close, the points are always vital. But, you're right, the coaches do have a corner of one eye on the future (if that's what you're saying).

I think we'd be better off developing our players by having a youth policy through the season, which should give them a taste of finals, but probably not deep finals (which could come with a top 4 finish, which would probably require foregoing youth policies, match fitness AFL games, etc). That is, I think the season development is better than whatever development they'd get out of playing deep finals, from a long term view. I don't think we should be enticed by the possibility of snagging a flag. Anyone can do that (Hawthorn), but Essendon is a team of eras. I want another era, and I think "seasonal" development will better the chances of that. Because the comp is so close, we still need to try to win every game, but with an eye on the future, so that Geelong don't dominate forever, and so that premierships aren't left to chance.

All the close games we won in the first half of the season could have gone the other way - then I doubt we'd worry about having an eye on the future. I'm really happy with Knights' digging in for the long term -
I feel sorry for Sheedy, for the pressure he always had from the board to make finals each year. Now that we're seeing the upside of Knights' long term approach, let's not put the pressure on him to make deep finals just yet.

Incorrect.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

NLM and Houli would have been given a go instead of Myers and Quinn early in the season.

I wouldn't have selected that many underdone players against Adelaide.

In terms of list management I would have kept Peverill on for another year to provide depth in case we had injuries which we have.

Using Stanton to tag Harvey of North is a massive no no for me.

I would have made a lot more moves on certain players early. The Lucas on Tippet move was a disaster and it was always going to be that. Daniher should have been given a game or Pears should have gone to him early.

So many little things throughout the season that says to me we are more keen on experimenting rather than going into the season with a win at all costs attitude. For me it's the wrong mentality to have in a situation where you need to ingrain into every player a win at all costs attitude.

The reason I asked that is because on here, we're getting people criticise the selections of Skipworth especially, but also Slattery because he's a whopping 22 years old and can't improve now that he's so old.

The points you made are all valid (except maybe Peverill). However, Houli's dropping was done to teach him a lesson, and it certainly looks like it's done that.

 

[Drummer_19]

Hypothetically we could be 7-4 and aiming for a top 4 birth. We have a pretty good run home and with a win at all costs mentality we might have been able to shock and sneak into the top 4.

Hypothetically we could of lost to Collingwood and Carlton and been 3 - 8

 

[Boucks09]

Great thought provoking thread Kelvin. I think the quality of your posts have been of a great (and positive) standard of late

There is NO DOUBT that Knights has an eye on the future in regards to his mentality for this season. Whilst this could be viewed as deterimental to our chances this season, I disagree. Here is why:

- All players regardless of class, quality and previous achievements are now being made to earn their spot in the side. This creates a much more competitive team environment and removes any levels of complacency. See McVeigh, Lucas, Houli as examples.

- The improvement this season must come from our younger players. In the past it has been the likes of Hird, Lucas, Lloyd, Fletcher and Hille who have carried the side to the majority of our wins. For the side to improve the responsibilty must lie with the younger players and we are seeing them now step up to the mark. These guys are now our game winners. See Lovett, Watson, Stanton, Winderlich, Ryder and Pears as examples.

I remember at the end of the 2007 season, speaking with a few Essendon supporters who expected finals in 2008. I said that if we won 8-10 games I would be wrapped, given that Hird had single handedly won 5 games for us that season and the improvement would need to come from the younger players.

I see the same this year. If we make finals, it needs to be done on the back of our 'new core' group of players. I don't want Lloyd and Lucas kicking 120 for the season, or Fletcher playing on the best forward.

Who would've thought at the start on 2009 that a season ending David Hille injury could be one of the major positives for the year (with the opportunity handed to Ryder), or Dustin Fletcher breaking a leg seeing two 19 y/o's hold their own against the 2 best forward combinations in the league?

We need to give our players opportunities to shine because otherwise we will never know how good they could be. If it means we lose some games we should've won then so be it....because there is a strong chance it will mean we will win some games we shouldn't (see ANZAC Day and the Carlton match).

 

[daffo]

- The improvement this season must come from our younger players. In the past it has been the likes of Hird, Lucas, Lloyd, Fletcher and Hille who have carried the side to the majority of our wins. For the side to improve the responsibilty must lie with the younger players and we are seeing them now step up to the mark. These guys are now our game winners. See Lovett, Watson, Stanton, Winderlich, Ryder and Pears as examples.

I see the same this year. If we make finals, it needs to be done on the back of our 'new core' group of players. I don't want Lloyd and Lucas kicking 120 for the season, or Fletcher playing on the best forward.

Who would've thought at the start on 2009 that a season ending David Hille injury could be one of the major positives for the year (with the opportunity handed to Ryder), or Dustin Fletcher breaking a leg seeing two 19 y/o's hold their own against the 2 best forward combinations in the league?

You have said some good points here. I totally agree with the Hille/Ryder situation that has come up. Ryder is playing by fair the best football of his career. He is matching it with most ruckman (he is getting found out against the huge body ones but this was a times happening to Hille). I remember looking at the teams best two years ago and always seeing the old boys names coming up which was a worry. Stanton/Lovett and Watson have really stepped up which is pleasing for us.
One point i do disagree with you on is Fletch's injury. Pears and Hooker have been playing on the best two forwards even when Fletch has been in the side. Fletch would of helped us a lot by cutting of leads and playing the 'quarterback' role. We have missed him and I haven't seen any real positives from his injury.

 

[Smokin]

i kinda agree, a few times i have posted this season my feeling was that it felt like this season was more about development than winning games.

Then last week comes along, when I posted we played a team which wouldnt win as I thought we just HAD to play Daniher, then he brings in old legs Lucas. That one had me stumped.

But, could it be Daniher is being given the Houli treatment? Perhaps Knights felt the he and the club owed Scotty at least one more go at it? Who knows.

Knights is saying he will stick with Neagle. Fantastic.

Ryder has probably come along and learned more in 11 weeks, than he has since he got here. Absolutely fantastic for him, something we wont realise the rewards of until 2010. That was forced, not designed but anyway.

What also has to be remembered is we had over 20 operations at the end of last season - that is half the squad cant say they had a full pre-season. Some big names in that bunch too. That has obviously had an impact which isnt tangible this season.

The writing is definitely on the wall that by 2010, the planets will start aligning for us. There seems to be upside everywhere.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Another way to look at it is to compare us to St Kilda and their mentality.

They haven't gone down the youth path and have recruited Gardiner, King, Ray, Dawson over the past few years and are now a premiership chance.

How we would love one of King or Gardiner right now.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Another way to look at it is to compare us to St Kilda and their mentality.

They haven't gone down the youth path and have recruited Gardiner, King, Ray, Dawson over the past few years and are now a premiership chance.

How we would love one of King or Gardiner right now.

There is a difference... They going deep into finals before any of them were on St.Kilda's list.

 

[Call Me Cake]

2008 Round 11 - 2 wins, 9 losses.

2009 Round 11 - 5 wins, 6 losses.

'Nuff said.

We went into the second half of Season 2008 exceptionally well, and managed to win 6 more games, 4 in a row after Round 11. Carlton was one of them, we defeated them as underdogs for the second time in the year.

If we can go into the second half & win 6 games while being 2-9 & injury depleted, we can do even better this year.

There is no reason why we can't. In fact, I'd expect us to beat our record with the team we have now. And if that happens... well, aim for the sky I say.

Anything can happen though, and I'm always prepared to accept that. It's why I love football.

 

[GmeUP]

i've quoted this post but there's a number of them in this thread.

what the hell is this attitude "you can bank on a win here" or "i'd be seriously disappointed if we didnt win at subiaco"??!!

WAKE UP!

THE COMPETITION IS TOO CLOSE TO CALL FOR MOST MATCHES LET ALONE PREDICTING "EASY" WINS FOR US!

Jesus. Saints, Cats and maybe the Dogs are the only ones that have the right to be called favourites when travelling. Some teams, like collingwood, have an exceptional record when travelling ... BUT NOT ESSENDON.

So stop talking shit ... wake up to reality ... and understand that knights doesn't give a rats arse where we finish this year as long as he can put his young chargers through its paces week in week out and to instill the attacking mentality that this young mob are starting to show.

That means screwing up some weeks by trying to be to cute handballing and intensely exciting in others when the rythym gets going. You cannot predict where essendon (and a lot of other clubs) are going to pick up points let alone "bank" on "guaranteed" wins here and there.

the only games i've shown some level of confidence winning is against richmond and against melbourne this coming round. but that's it. my next two that i had confidence were the Kangas and Brisbane*!

*: because they were down on form and we seemed to be "up" on form.

Mate i'm just giving another viewpoint to the negative posts about how hard our draw is which I don't consider so tough. Fair enough we may not be able to "bank" on wins perhaps i got ahead of myself. Yet all everyone seems concerned with is that we have to play X amount of teams in the 8 which in reality 2-3 will probably not be there after round 22 and we do play the bottom 4 teams currently who are likely to remain bottom 4 after 22 rounds.

As for talking shit and waking up to reality I think you want to read what you said next as i'm pretty sure Knights does give a shit where we finish this year or otherwise he isn't the man to be coaching us!