MGTOW - Men Going Their Own Way

[perthblue]

Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears....

Now, I don't personally subscribe to MRA, MGTOW, or RedPill theories or doctrine, but there's no doubt that it's a growing movement especially among younger men. I want to talk specifically about MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) which seems to be an off-shoot of the more negative parts of the MRA movement.

"So perthblue, you beautiful intelligent cosmopolitan gentleman," I hear you ask "What do you mean by 'men going their own way'"

The subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/ describes it as this:

We are men going our own way by forging our own identities and paths to self-defined success; cutting through collective ideas of what a man is.

More specifically, it is about men ditching the idea of marriage and raising children, and dedicating their lives to other pursuits.

www.mgtow.com describes it as this:

The History of M.G.T.O.W | Men Going Their Own Way
Men have gone their own way for centuries. Welcome to v.2017.

There has been much chatter about when "MGTOW" originated online as a recent social phenomenon, but one would really have to pull the camera back. Way back to Schopenhauer, Tesla, Beethoven, Galileo, or even Jesus Christ - if you're up to arguing that.

MGTOW is not as old as fire, but it's as old as a man's first discovery of it.

Fire always exists - even when you can't see it - and it only takes a spark or a bolt of lightning to ignite a blaze. MGTOW could be regarded as a reaction to recent cultural shifts, but the exact phrase "Men Going Their Own Way" can be found in print and newspaper clippings dating back to 1853, and spanning the 20th century.

If MGTOW is fire, then perhaps feminism is gasoline.

"For every action has an equal and opposite reaction".
- Sir Isaac Newton's 3rd Law of Motion

Survival and mating are the success model for animals in the wild. That's the best they will ever do. But marriage and children are not the highest pinnacle of success for Men. Some 60% of men who ever lived on Earth never had children, so what did they dedicate their lives to?

For millennia, men have accomplished and contributed far greater miracles of science, discovery and human endeavor, and thanks to men like Orville and Wilbur Wright, man is the only mammal that can't fly - that CAN fly. Man is also the only species that has the capability of deflecting an extinction-level event.

The quote "If MGTOW is fire, then perhaps feminism is gasoline" is the quote which best describes what motivates the movement. Young men aren't happy with the way that men in general are portrayed by the 3rd wave feminist movement and are resisting by dedicating their lives to other pursuits other than romantic or sexual, or at least not dedicating as much time to romantic/sexual pursuits as men generally do.

Typing in 'MGTOW' on youtube will serve up a number of MGTOW related channels. I have found that the overwhelming majority of videos posted on such channels are of this nature, where a woman is displaying victimhood or entitlement where it is not waranted:



Some of the comments:

imagine a male teacher would have confirmed sex with a 17 year old girl and he would say the psycological issues blablabla

Today's modern woman: refuses to own up and take responsibility for her actions.... even when she commits a crime!!

Typical female lack of accountability...it's never really their fault it's always the fault of someone else...regardless of the circumstances.....this is one of the hallmarks of female nature.

I know Youtube comments are bottom-of-the-barrel stuff but I wanted to illustrate the mentality of the average follower of the MGTOW movement.

So what do you think?
Do these men have a point? Does modern feminism, or at least the mainstream portrayal of it, have a share of the blame for 'men going their own way'? Are these blokes just being a bit precious? Or are they just young and unsuccessful with women, and will eventually grow out of it?

Over to you, Bigfooty

Goodwill to you and yours,
perthblue
x o x o x o

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Life is a game

play it

 

[Gough]

There's a less cumbersome, less acronymy name for men who live lives without women.

 

[kickazz]

I think there is a percentage of men, whom for whatever reason, do not really enjoy the benefits of the ingrained patriarchy - which has had a more generalised benefit to men across the board.

The counter from the third wave against the patriarchy is attempting to restore the balance for women in the general sense - bit it also can help capable women on a personal level very directly (employment affirmative action, etc)

It's the lesser capable men, mentioned above, that feel left out I suppose. Not feeling the benefits personally but seeing or feeling the general negativity (#notallmen) would make one feel a little lost I recon.

And yes, these men are probably guilty somewhat of playing the victim card (after all, life is tough for all of us) but I'd agree it's a lot less socially acceptable for them to do so, collectively as men, and hence they have been bottling it up, as individuals.

Likewise with women not wanting to be decisive and hence take responsibility. It's all about the historical place of men and women in society and it still plays a part as much as we'd like it not to.

TLDR - I can see how men at the lower end of the success spectrum (despite male privilege) feel really ripped off, whilst those at the higher end (helped by male privilege whether they acknowledge it or not) are more accepting of addressing gender imbalance and scoff at the complaints of the less successful men.

 

[Footypie32]

It just seems a tad ironic that men feel the need for approval from other men to "go their own way".

Even funnier is that those great men they mention; Schopenhauer, Orville, Tesla, Beethoven etc, went their own way in an age when the status quo was even more heavily engrained in society. They didn't need some faux movement to tell them it was ok.

 

[Gough]

It just seems a tad ironic that men feel the need for approval from other men to "go their own way".

Even funnier is that those great men they mention; Schopenhauer, Orville, Tesla, Beethoven etc, went their own way in an age when the status quo was even more heavily engrained in society. They didn't need some faux movement to tell them it was ok.

Sad, woman hating losers. If they weren't such odious turds, you could almost feel sorry for them.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

There's a less cumbersome, less acronymy name for men who live lives without women.

Incels?

 

[perthblue]

I think there is a percentage of men, whom for whatever reason, do not really enjoy the benefits of the ingrained patriarchy - which has had a more generalised benefit to men across the board.

The counter from the third wave against the patriarchy is attempting to restore the balance for women in the general sense - bit it also can help capable women on a personal level very directly (employment affirmative action, etc)

It's the lesser capable men, mentioned above, that feel left out I suppose. Not feeling the benefits personally but seeing or feeling the general negativity (#notallmen) would make one feel a little lost I recon.

And yes, these men are probably guilty somewhat of playing the victim card (after all, life is tough for all of us) but I'd agree it's a lot less socially acceptable for them to do so, collectively as men, and hence they have been bottling it up, as individuals.

Likewise with women not wanting to be decisive and hence take responsibility. It's all about the historical place of men and women in society and it still plays a part as much as we'd like it not to.

TLDR - I can see how men at the lower end of the success spectrum (despite male privilege) feel really ripped off, whilst those at the higher end (helped by male privilege whether they acknowledge it or not) are more accepting of addressing gender imbalance and scoff at the complaints of the less successful men.

It's interesting you bring up terms like patriarchy and male privilege, as one of the tenets behind MGTOW is that these are fantasies, or at least if they were once real, they certainly aren't real anymore. Playing devils advocate here: Re: patriarchy, although men hold most of the positions of power, the decisions they make do not benefit men and in fact do the opposite. Re: male privilege, lots of men come from underprivileged backgrounds and so find it galling that they are told they have this so-called privilege that has not granted them any benefit at all, and is instead used to dismiss any of their concerns and problems. Do you not think these men have legitimate grievances?

Incels?

I reckon a fair portion of MGTOWs are pre-emptive incels

 

[edgie]

More specifically, it is about men ditching the idea of marriage and raising children, and dedicating their lives to other pursuits.

So it's, uh, basically extreme feminism for blokes?

Seriously, another shitty thing. All of the people involved in this would give it up in a heartbeat for a chance to bed some 7s, 8s, 9s, and 10s for the rest of their life.

 

[NaturalDisaster]

Yeah read about this.

It's the blokes version of radical feminism. They constantly complain about feminists ruining society and having an agenda against men yet don't realise that they are just as bad and pathetic as the extremists.

 

[freebloke]

I thought it was a thread about becoming a catholic priest

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Reckon both feminism and mens rights groups are less about the message and more about creating a community, having guidance and feeling supported. A biproduct of Nietzsche observation of the death of God, in that the rejection of religion has left a lot of lost people looking for meaning.

 

[iluvparis]

Reckon both feminism and mens rights groups are less about the message and more about creating a community, having guidance and feeling supported. A biproduct of Nietzsche observation of the death of God, in that the rejection of religion has left a lot of lost people looking for meaning.

Perhaps every hotel room should have its Bible replaced with a dictionary?

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Perhaps every hotel room should have its Bible replaced with a dictionary?

Took me a minute but very good.

 

[Gough]

Perhaps every hotel room should have its Bible replaced with a dictionary?

 

[Brad Goodman]

 

[Scotland]

http://www.smh.com.au/business/mini...0-gender-target-for-2025-20161019-gs6eib.html

"However, we will not disadvantage anyone. No one's job is under threat because they are male. But we will work to remove the unconscious bias that, in my view, women have been disadvantaged for a very long time in a male-dominated environment. Once we address that, we base decisions on merit, which is how it should be." - CEO

This is the kind of nonsense that has infiltrated society. You tackle "unconscious bias" by effectively enforcing quotas to turn a business operating in arguably the most male-dominated industry in the country into a 50/50 split in the space of 9 years - but no one will be disadvantaged. I have contacts within the organisation and know how this is working in practice. I'm glad I am not a shareholder nor employee...

MGTOW or equivalent movements are only going to be on the rise with this sort of crap becoming more prevalent.

 

[perthblue]

So it's, uh, basically extreme feminism for blokes?

Seriously, another shitty thing. All of the people involved in this would give it up in a heartbeat for a chance to bed some 7s, 8s, 9s, and 10s for the rest of their life.

It can be boiled down to the male version of feminism, you're right, but I don't think that MGTOW is about celibacy.

Yeah read about this.

It's the blokes version of radical feminism. They constantly complain about feminists ruining society and having an agenda against men yet don't realise that they are just as bad and pathetic as the extremists.

I agree that the extreme portion of each movement is terrible. The trouble is that MGTOWs/MRAs and the like don't get taken seriously and are often ridiculed. Feminism gets taken seriously and is more mainstream, and even enforced in society with gender quotas in workplaces and woman-specific University grants.

 

[edgie]

It can be boiled down to the male version of feminism, you're right, but I don't think that MGTOW is about celibacy.


....

It's not necessarily about celibacy, but I don't think people can get on a high horse about eschewing female companionship and starting a family whilst engaging in short term relationships with any integrity.

The same as those blokes who say they don't want a woman but spend every free moment perusing Tinder for their next one night stand, etc.

Like, if you're gonna be single, then be right and proper single.

 

[Scotland]

Do you need to be a celibate/woman hater to think feminism is bullshit now?

 

[Frank Bunn]

Reckon both feminism and mens rights groups are less about the message and more about creating a community, having guidance and feeling supported. A biproduct of Nietzsche observation of the death of God, in that the rejection of religion has left a lot of lost people looking for meaning.

Then again, an appreciation of the absurdity of the human condition might lead you to pursue women not reject them. From Woody Allen's Play It Again, Sam.

Allan: That's quite a lovely Jackson Pollock, isn't it?
Museum Girl: Yes, it is.
Allan: What does it say to you?
Museum Girl: It restates the negativeness of the universe. The hideous lonely emptiness of existence. Nothingness. The predicament of Man forced to live in a barren, Godless eternity like a tiny flame flickering in an immense void with nothing but waste, horror and degradation, forming a useless bleak straitjacket in a black absurd cosmos.
Allan: What are you doing Saturday night?
Museum Girl: Committing suicide.
Allan: What about Friday night?

 

[kickazz]

It's interesting you bring up terms like patriarchy and male privilege, as one of the tenets behind MGTOW is that these are fantasies, or at least if they were once real, they certainly aren't real anymore.

Well if they deny it ever existed then they are probably too ignorant of history to reason with. Active steps to square the ledger have been progressively taken but I'd suggest the remnants of that culture persist today.

As for wondering if they are still a thing or not: well I guess it really depends on the context. It's not like the worm score for a footy game on the AFL app, where men were 100 points up, the women get given free kicks and they are now only 20 behind, 20 ahead or scores are level. It's just not that one dimensionally simple.

The reality is that no individual experiences society in its wholeness. Society can be sliced and diced innumerate ways, and in each case you'll get varying levels of "patriarchy" or "male privilege", or for that matter "matriarchy" or "female privilege". If you find that such concepts don't apply to your slice of reality then you are more likely to reject them.

Re: male privilege, lots of men come from underprivileged backgrounds and so find it galling that they are told they have this so-called privilege that has not granted them any benefit at all, and is instead used to dismiss any of their concerns and problems. Do you not think these men have legitimate grievances?

Absolutely. Just as anyone would if a prejudiced assumption is made about them based on a very general attribute they possess, be it gender, age, physical appearance, ethnicity, etc. Particularly if they are more or less the opposite of the stereotype.

 

[Demosthenes]

The trouble is that MGTOWs/MRAs and the like don't get taken seriously and are often ridiculed.

The reason for the ridicule being that 'men's rights' in and of itself is a cause with neither a meaningful injustice to crusade against, nor disenfranchisement to correct.

Any legitimate grievances held by people within the MRA movement do not arise specifically from their gender. 'Feminism' is just a convenient focus for their fears of further social marginalisation.

I kind of feel that old LBJ quote from the civil rights era is worth remembering:

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best coloured man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

 

[kickazz]

http://www.smh.com.au/business/mini...0-gender-target-for-2025-20161019-gs6eib.html

"However, we will not disadvantage anyone. No one's job is under threat because they are male. But we will work to remove the unconscious bias that, in my view, women have been disadvantaged for a very long time in a male-dominated environment. Once we address that, we base decisions on merit, which is how it should be." - CEO

This is the kind of nonsense that has infiltrated society. You tackle "unconscious bias" by effectively enforcing quotas to turn a business operating in arguably the most male-dominated industry in the country into a 50/50 split in the space of 9 years - but no one will be disadvantaged. I have contacts within the organisation and know how this is working in practice. I'm glad I am not a shareholder nor employee...

MGTOW or equivalent movements are only going to be on the rise with this sort of crap becoming more prevalent.

Done properly such policies are fine - but that's the tricky bit.
People tend to favour people similar to themselves, hence some industries getting male or female dominated.

There's the famous example of orchestra's in the 70s and 80s beginning to audition people behind a screen - so that the only thing that mattered, how they sounded, could be judged. The data showed a significant increase in females being hired. Were the judges out and out sexist? Probably not - they were just unconsciously biased to favour people similar to their own.

So how BHP plan to do this over a variety of skill sets will be interesting. Computer based aptitude/psychometric testing is probably a good start.

The 50-50 target is also interesting. Long term it is okay, but if the current day ratio of applications is 90-10 then forcing a 50-50 hiring rate too early is problematic.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Then again, an appreciation of the absurdity of the human condition might lead you to pursue women not reject them. From Woody Allen's Play It Again, Sam.

I believe that was the case for a long time, the absence of meaning from God found people searching for the meaning in relationships and family, but it appears the idea of finding meaning in that has subsided with many disillusioned as divorce rates reach an all time high and a lot of couples living in shared unhappiness.

The irony being the mindset of going your own way and not living by social standards is probably the most conducive state for achieving happiness in a relationship if you remain open to the possibility of it.