Michael Doughty- Really Struggling

[Damp Squarie]

bahahaha. Oh Carl, you're anti-Shirley stance regardless of his performances makes you sound like a fool.

What he said.

 

[Redline]

He will continue to be servicable but I think we are getting the most out of him that we ever will. As soon as a few younger players come though I think his position will come under question.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

bahahaha. Oh Carl, you're anti-Shirley stance regardless of his performances makes you sound like a fool. He was among the best round 1, handy in round 2....picked up his usual 15-16 disposals, did the grunt work, tackles, shepherds, knock-ons etc. As soon as he is fit he will be straight back in to the 22.

At whose expense? Bode to come back as well, Johncock and Ricciuto to follow.

There might be a time where a club has more than 22 players performing well and warranting selection you know. I know that's hard to imagine as a Carlton fan but it is a reality that we have to deal with.

 

[Crow-mo]

At whose expense? Bode to come back as well, Johncock and Ricciuto to follow.

There might be a time where a club has more than 22 players performing well and warranting selection you know. I know that's hard to imagine as a Carlton fan but it is a reality that we have to deal with.

Bode
Johncock
Ricciuto?

you're kinda proving his point.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Bode
Johncock
Ricciuto?

you're kinda proving his point.

How so? If Shirley comes up ok this week which midfielder gets the bullet?

 

[Crow-mo]

How so? If Shirley comes up ok this week which midfielder gets the bullet?

are you serious or just trying to play dumb?

1. johncock is not a midfielder.
2. Ricciuto has not been a midfielder for quite some time
3. Bode is a not midfielder

and lastly, neither of them would be a shut down, run with player anyway.

shirley is plainly one of the first players picked each week, and there isn't a credible of way of spinning it otherwise.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

are you serious or just trying to play dumb?

1. johncock is not a midfielder.
2. Ricciuto has not been a midfielder for quite some time
3. Bode is a not midfielder

and lastly, neither of them would be a shut down, run with player anyway.

shirley is plainly one of the first players picked each week, and there isn't a credible of way of spinning it otherwise.

Johncock might not be a midfielder, but if he returns where does Douglas go?

So, for the second time, if Shirley comes up this week which midfielder gets the bullet?

 

[Jars458]

Johncock might not be a midfielder, but if he returns where does Douglas go?

So, for the second time, if Shirley comes up this week which midfielder gets the bullet?

I would say if Shirley came in then Vince would go out.

 

[Crow-mo]

Johncock might not be a midfielder, but if he returns where does Douglas go?

ah, as to be expected. shifting positions already?
if you think douglas and shirley are interchangeable, well the original charge fits.

oh, good to see you concede that johncock is not a midfielder. but still hanging on to bode are we?

So, for the second time, if Shirley comes up this week which midfielder gets the bullet?

the second time? i hadn't realise you'd backed away (ran more like it) from your first ludicrous assertion quite so quickly. silly me.

you try to make this sound like a difficult question only to make your daft line seem more plausible. sorry, too easy to spot.

Porplyzia
Vince
Douglas

or put another way, any of last weeks in's.

Jtrain was right, you're just looking like a fool. again.

 

[Crow-mo]

I would say if Shirley came in then Vince would go out.

he was just trying to obfuscate his position, there isn't much confusion over possible outs. Vince or Porps would be obvious considerations.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Porplyzia
Vince
Douglas

Hang on, are Porplyzia and Vince playing as midfielders? You're not making the same 'mistake' I am are you?

So, it seems we are back to our old argument! To ditch, or not to ditch, the youngsters. Another 10+ pages coming up?

I think Shirley (and Doughty for that matter) would be watching with interest the recent games of our younger midfielders - Knights, van Berlo and Reilly - we're running out of spots in there. And Douglas has looked raw but ok in defence too. Whether he progresses to spend time in the midfield this season is unkown at this stage.

Pressure for spots is a healthy thing at the club but I hope we don't follow down the same path as the last two seasons and get rid of the youngsters whenever a more experienced option is available.

 

[Crow-mo]

Hang on, are Porplyzia and Vince playing as midfielders? You're not making the same 'mistake' I am are you?

well good to see you;ve admitted your mistake, it's the first step to recognising you have a problem.

but, as usual a simplistic analysis. these were the guys who came in, and the team was reshuffled.

whereas you were suggesting, and rightly called on it, that we had other guys to fit into the midfield - when plainly we don't. Shirley is our no.1 player of type, and it frankly doesn't matter what you think on this.

So, it seems we are back to our old argument! To ditch, or not to ditch, the youngsters. Another 10+ pages coming up?

changing the subject? not surprising really.

but nope. your simple premise that we don't do enough with our young players, which you were unable to address before, has been well and truly disproved this season. but if you still think we should do more, well good for you. I'm sure the netball team agrees.

I think Shirley (and Doughty for that matter) would be watching with interest the recent games of our younger midfielders - Knights, van Berlo and Reilly - we're running out of spots in there.

do you watch games? seriously. only van berlo plays a similar role to shirley, and they tend to play that role in tandum and/or switching as the case maybe. reilly or knights have nothing common with Shirley, but then neither do johncock, bode or 2006/07 riccuito either

And Douglas has looked raw but ok in defence too. Whether he progresses to spend time in the midfield this season is unkown at this stage.

again, you seem to think all midfielders perform the same role or function. can't think of where you got that idea from. not to mention a desperately poor understanding of a rotation system.

Pressure for spots is a healthy thing at the club but I hope we don't follow down the same path as the last two seasons and get rid of the youngsters whenever a more experienced option is available.

Yes, I can imagine you're truly horrified at the idea of another season in premiership contention.

anyway, I have no intention of wasting any more time debating a point with someone who twists in the wind, and has not yet grasped midfield roles and rotations in the 21st century.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

these were the guys who came in, and the team was reshuffled.

whereas you were suggesting, and rightly called on it, that we had other guys to fit into the midfield - when plainly we don't. Shirley is our no.1 player of type, and it frankly doesn't matter what you think on this.

changing the subject? not surprising really.

but nope. your simple premise that we don't do enough with our young players, which you were unable to address before, has been well and truly disproved this season. but if you still think we should do more, well good for you. I'm sure the netball team agrees.

do you watch games? seriously. only van berlo plays a similar role to shirley, and they tend to play that role in tandum and/or switching as the case maybe. reilly or knights have nothing common with Shirley, but then neither do johncock, bode or 2006/07 riccuito either

again, you seem to think all midfielders perform the same role or function. can't think of where you got that idea from. not to mention a desperately poor understanding of a rotation system.

Yes, I can imagine you're truly horrified at the idea of another season in premiership contention.

anyway, I have no intention of wasting any more time debating a point with someone who twists in the wind, and has not yet grasped midfield roles and rotations in the 21st century.

Will the same 'shuffling' not occur when Ricciuto and Bode return to the forward line?

Thompson, Goodwin, Edwards, Doughty, Shirley, van Berlo, Knights, Reilly, Douglas... it's getting crowded in that midfield even allowing for these complex roles and rotations that you will have to teach me about some day. We've already got van Berlo being groomed as a defensive midfielder and it was interesting that Doughty helped fill that role on the weekend in Shirley's absence. I wonder if Shirley has the same blinkers on as you do.

Disagree on Knights as well. Whilst he is a ball magnet I'd be surprised if Craig doesn't invest some time developing his defensive skills this season. Goodwin, Ricciuto, McLeod, Bickley and Edwards all went through this process before become permanent midfield players. Will round out his game nicely.

Shirley has certainly been our number one run with player over the last few seasons. I'm not denying this. His form has been solid, he's earned his spot in the team, claimed some big scalps, he's a perfectly capable AFL footballer. Will this continue to be the case? When will VB graduate from his current 'apprentice' role? Looking ahead this season I don't think that Shirley and Doughty will be able to stay in the same 22 if we are serious about developing our next generation of players.

 

[tribey]

Shirley has certainly been our number one run with player over the last few seasons. I'm not denying this. His form has been solid, he's earned his spot in the team, claimed some big scalps, he's a perfectly capable AFL footballer. Will this continue to be the case? When will VB graduate from his current 'apprentice' role? Looking ahead this season I don't think that Shirley and Doughty will be able to stay in the same 22 if we are serious about developing our next generation of players.

Shirley only turns 27 in June.

Seeing as his game doesn't rely on pace and more on being in and under and stopping others, there is no reason why he couldn't forseeably play until his 30s if form permits.

 

[Vader]

Shirley only turns 27 in June.

Seeing as his game doesn't rely on pace and more on being in and under and stopping others, there is no reason why he couldn't forseeably play until his 30s if form permits.

I can't see Shirley playing into his 30s. Given what Trigg is reported to have said, about not retaining non-tier 1 players past their 30th birthday. He's genuinely 2nd tier, but not 1st tier.

That said, I do see him being retained until the end of the season in which he turns 30.

 

[Blue Red and Gold]

Bode has, and can play in the middle

 

[Vader]

As has been pointed out, we have a number of senior players set to return in the next month or so - Johncock, Shirley, Ricciuto and Bode being the main ones.

• Johncock is our best small defender.
• Shirley is our #1 tagger.
• Ricciuto is our Captain and leader.

It is an absolute certainty that these three will return as soon as they are fit - though Ricciuto will almost certainly return via West Adelaide in order to gain some match fitness.

• Bode, like it or not, is our best small forward - due to the pressure he applies when Adelaide are not in posession of the footy.

It has also been pointed out, quite correctly, that of those players only Shirley is a genuine midfielder. However, on each occasion that these players have gone out of the side it has been a midfielder who has come in to effectively replace them with the team being reshuffled as a result. Thus, though none of the returning players are themselves midfielders, it is likely that a midfielder will be omitted in order to make way for their return.

The question of who will be dropped in order to accommodate the return of these more senior players is a valid one, which has not really been answered during CS & Crow-mo's debate.

My personal opinion is as follows:

• First man out will be Bernie Vince, the least experienced player in our lineup and the player with most to gain from playing in the SANFL.
• Second man out will be Porplyzia.
• Third man out would be Doughty. His form has not been great this year and the likes of VB, Knights and Douglas would all be ranked higher than him. Did a good job in the tagging role last week, but Shirley's return would remove that requirement.

I do not believe that there would be a need for a fourth man out, as I believe that there is only room in our forward line for two of Welsh, Ricciuto & Bode. Given that Welsh's form in R2 & R3 has been good (though R1 was dire at best), it is unlikely that he would be dropped. Thus Roo & Bode are fighting for one position - Bode is likely to return, only to be dropped when Roo regains fitness.

 

[Vader]

Bode has, and can play in the middle

He has and can, but he is a very limited midfielder. His real value is in the forward line, particularly when the opposition have the ball.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

My personal opinion is as follows:

• First man out will be Bernie Vince, the least experienced player in our lineup and the player with most to gain from playing in the SANFL.
• Second man out will be Porplyzia.
• Third man out would be Doughty. His form has not been great this year and the likes of VB, Knights and Douglas would all be ranked higher than him. Did a good job in the tagging role last week, but Shirley's return would remove that requirement.

I do not believe that there would be a need for a fourth man out, as I believe that there is only room in our forward line for two of Welsh, Ricciuto & Bode. Given that Welsh's form in R2 & R3 has been good (though R1 was dire at best), it is unlikely that he would be dropped. Thus Roo & Bode are fighting for one position - Bode is likely to return, only to be dropped when Roo regains fitness.

Good post. Personally I would prefer to see Doughty remain in the team over Shirley but as I have admitted I am a Doughty fan. The only way Roo, Bode and Welsh could all play up forward is if Burton shifted further up the ground. The Birdman may get a trial run this week if he indeed gets the Goodes match up.

The team looks somewhat revitalised at the moment compared to the latter part of 2006. There has been an injection of enthusiasm and energy which IMO is partly due to the presence of guys like Douglas, Knights, Griffin, Porplyzia and Vince. I'd be really keen to see as many of them remain in the team as possible, even if it means a more experienced player misses out. Clarke, Hart and Massie have already made way and I don't believe they will be the only ones.

 

[Mad Dog]

It has been well documented that I was primarily responsible for Young Mick turning his career around last year and returning to the Halcyon days of 2002. After questioning his character in 2005 with jibes such as "wide receiver", "butter>Doughty", "flincher", and "Jericho wannabee", The Prepubescent took all that on board and redefined his approach to the game. No longer did he need those photos of the Coach and a small Alpacca to ensure a spot in the team.

Last year he was one of the most hard at it contributors in the side and became one of the first dozen picked each week...and full credit to the boy...

Personally - I don't see that his form is a major concern this year as he is obviously doing a few jobs that go unrewarded stats wise.....and will continue to be an important part of the side in the short to mid term.

It must be said though........that with the development and emergence of players such as Vince,Douggie, VB, Porps, Reilly, and others .......Doughty will be one of those players that will become marginalised in the same way as Bodey has. There is no question that these players can play the game and are important - but ultimately the squad will develop and new faces will become permanent faces.

After choosing to fight for his AFL career a couple of years ago.......he will need to continue the fight to ward off those knocking at the selection door.

Good luck to the Young Man...........

 

[Damp Squarie]

I love Dogga and would hate to see him out of a side that has had him in as one of the regulars for quite awhile.

Your right MD his stats will never tell the full story BUT it only takes one sacrifical act to change opinions in this thread.

 

[Blue Red and Gold]

Doughty and Shirley will always be the first 2 guys out of the side once the youngsters come through.

 

[macca23]

It must be said though........that with the development and emergence of players such as Vince,Douggie, VB, Porps, Reilly, and others .......Doughty will be one of those players that will become marginalised in the same way as Bodey has. There is no question that these players can play the game and are important - but ultimately the squad will develop and new faces will become permanent faces.

Which is nothing more than the natural evolution that takes place in every football team, every year.

 

[Damp Squarie]

Credit where its due. Good game last night Mick.

 

[Markthirtytwo]

Credit where its due. Good game last night Mick.

Yup for the Pup.