Play Nice Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

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owen87

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I firmly believe Jordan didnt have any weaknesses at all. That's why he is the GOAT. You couldnt really be the GOAT without that. Two plus two is four you know...
So how did he ever have a quiet game with no weaknesses?
 

fidstar

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I didnt point to it as a weak point. If we are nit picking, which people do then they always harp back to his three point shooting. I never said he'd be Steph Curry as Steph is the greatest 3pt shooter of all time. But Jordan in today's league would recognise how important the three ball is and master it. He had elite shooting technique so it's just about stepping out and perfecting from a bit deeper.

To put it into context too, when Jordan played the three ball was almost a novelty. So he never had to make it another weapon despite being proficient enough from deep. Teams had specialist three point shooters like Craig Hodges, Steve Kerr, Tim Legler, Jeff Hornacek, Dale Ellies etc

But let's look at some of today's players or recent players who people wouldnt associate as the three ball being a weakness. Kobe, Lebron, Durant, Harden and Kyrie are some players I thought of. Here are their best shooting seasons.

Kyrie Irving - .415 on 5.0 attempts per game.
Lebron James - .406 on 3.3 attempts per game.
Kobe Bryant - .383 on 4.0 attempts per game.
James Harden - .390 on 4.7 attempts per game.
Kevin Durant - .422 on 3.1 attempts per game.

Michael Jordan - .427 on 3.2 attempts per game.

So over the course of a full season with more attempts than Durant, Jordan has shot better from deep than one of the best shooters in the game today. That was the 72-10 year. His first full year back. Jordan can shoot the three. Did he shoot that well every year? No. But the three point line was a different thing in Jordan's time. But the evidence is there that if he needed to shoot it and become lethal from range like in today's game. He simply would have.

I firmly believe Jordan didnt have any weaknesses at all. That's why he is the GOAT. You couldnt really be the GOAT without that. Two plus two is four you know...
Awesome twisting of stats there Jod. That season MJ had a 22 foot three point line. At regulation depth MJ had 2 seasons out of 12 where he shot better than 31.5%.

MJ was not a great three point shooter.

Volume would have helped, but three point shooting would have never been a strength of MJs.
 

QuietB

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Awesome twisting of stats there Jod. That season MJ had a 22 foot three point line. At regulation depth MJ had 2 seasons out of 12 where he shot better than 31.5%.

MJ was not a great three point shooter.

Volume would have helped, but three point shooting would have never been a strength of MJs.
That is bullshit. All MJ had to do was put his mind to it. Curry would have witnessed his dominance and chosen another sport.

If he simply hit the gym for one extra session a week he could have dominated Shaq in the paint too.

That is how GOAT he is.
 

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Bostonian

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Awesome twisting of stats there Jod. That season MJ had a 22 foot three point line. At regulation depth MJ had 2 seasons out of 12 where he shot better than 31.5%.

MJ was not a great three point shooter.

Volume would have helped, but three point shooting would have never been a strength of MJs.
The problem with that is that despite Bird being as good of a 3 pt shooter as anyone in today's modern game he avg'd at most three 3pt attempts per game.

How they trained and how much time they dedicated to training for specific things differs vastly from now.

If Jordan spent as much time in training as a Curry does on their 3 pt shots who knows how decent he could have become.
 

AngryRanga

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It's not a good faith argument to add things that Jordan could have done. Shooting 3's isn't about wanting it more. There are many good mid-range shooters that can't shoot league average % from 3.

This thread has quickly reminded me that BigFooty remains boomerland. LeBron is a better player than Jordan. I'd still have Jordan as the GOAT because that's more of an era-relative call, but LeBron still has time to take him.
 

chrisdon16

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Curry is the best shooter ever. A natural from beyond the arc. IMO there hasn't been a shooter as natural as him not even Reggie or Ray. To say Michael could just morph into a 3 point shooter like him after practicing 3's just proves how futile MJ fans are.
 

Bostonian

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Curry is the best shooter ever. A natural from beyond the arc. IMO there hasn't been a shooter as natural as him not even Reggie or Ray. To say Michael could just morph into a 3 point shooter like him after practicing 3's just proves how futile MJ fans are.
Curry isn't that great of a mid range jump shooter.

How many of his shots are contested v someone like a Jordan?
 

Bostonian

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It's not a good faith argument to add things that Jordan could have done. Shooting 3's isn't about wanting it more. There are many good mid-range shooters that can't shoot league average % from 3.

This thread has quickly reminded me that BigFooty remains boomerland. LeBron is a better player than Jordan. I'd still have Jordan as the GOAT because that's more of an era-relative call, but LeBron still has time to take him.
Gen X land you mean.

The generation that has seen both of them play live and is a huge part of why the NBA took off in popularity and sustained it.

Doubt there's many boomers positing on here.
 

jod23

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Awesome twisting of stats there Jod. That season MJ had a 22 foot three point line. At regulation depth MJ had 2 seasons out of 12 where he shot better than 31.5%.

MJ was not a great three point shooter.

Volume would have helped, but three point shooting would have never been a strength of MJs.
I'm not saying he was a great 3pt shooter. I'm just pointing out his only possible weakness. But as we've all said, it was a different time then, the three ball wasnt important so Jordan didnt see it as something he needed.

If he played today I don't think he'd Steph/Klay type of shooter but he would easily have become pretty proficient at it as well that's just his nature.

Anyways I was just pointing out that Jordan is probably the most well rounded player of all time. Not LeBron as LBJ has too many weaknesses in his game.
 

fidstar

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Curry isn't that great of a mid range jump shooter.

How many of his shots are contested v someone like a Jordan?
what?

Curry shoots about 45% from 10 feet to the 3 point line. Which puts him in line with MJ, Dirk and Durant, three of the GOAT mid range shooters.

If we are talking 3 pointers, Curry's contested shots would be considerably higher than MJs. Particularly in the 80s where 3 point defense was usually a raised hand from a stationary defender. And in Jordan's case the guy was probably standing 5 feet from him worried about getting blown by.
 

owen87

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Haha erm ok.
The bizarre thing is, Jordan is able to be called GOAT without the mass hyperbole you throw on him.

There's been a lot of great players, and LBJ has performed at an extremely high level for a long time, within a game that's changed significantly from the Jordan era. It's hardly offensive to suggest that he's in the ballpark.

You're basically an internet warrior trying to 'own' people off the back of someone else's achievements. Take a breath.
 

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jod23

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The bizarre thing is, Jordan is able to be called GOAT without the mass hyperbole you throw on him.

There's been a lot of great players, and LBJ has performed at an extremely high level for a long time, within a game that's changed significantly from the Jordan era. It's hardly offensive to suggest that he's in the ballpark.

You're basically an internet warrior trying to 'own' people off the back of someone else's achievements. Take a breath.
This is a thread about the topic. So it's not like I'm doing anything untoward.

But that's just it for me. I don't think anyone is in the ballpark. I think the four main contenders for GOAT outside of Jordan are Kareem, Magic, Wilt and LeBron.

Those four all have too many drawbacks. Magic and LeBron are suspect defensively. Kareem won all his titles bar one once Magic came to LA. Wilt played in an 11 team league and purposely went after stats rather than wins.

All the guys who you can look at as Jordan rivals have something you can point too as a weak spot. Jordan really doesn't.

I think Jordan is the GOAT but I also think he is some way in front of whoever anyone might consider the second greatest.
 

owen87

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So it's not like I'm doing anything untoward.
It's posting rubbish like this:

I put the beat down on you
I destroyed that post
I destroy your post and that's all you had.
There's no doubt you know your stats, and you have even posted some balanced replies on this topic, but most of your stuff went off the deep end. As though you're Jordan himself being offended that anyone dare question your greatness.
 

jod23

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It's posting rubbish like this:





There's no doubt you know your stats, and you have even posted some balanced replies on this topic, but most of your stuff went off the deep end. As though you're Jordan himself being offended that anyone dare question your greatness.
I might be using a little sass to try and actually make someone make an argument. I've still not heard a reasoned argument as to why Lebron is anywhere near MJ.
 

owen87

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I might be using a little sass to try and actually make someone make an argument. I've still not heard a reasoned argument as to why Lebron is anywhere near MJ.

Is a good article, LBJ's longevity being the major thing in his favour.

I think Jordan is the better player, and there's little to nothing LeBron can do or achieve from here that will change that, but it's hardly an insult when LBJ is currently likely to play on for a few more years yet, and sits - #3 on all-time Points Scored and #8 on Assists (both ahead of MJ) in a league that is very different to the one Jordan played in.

Appreciate the fact that we're watching one of the all-time greats now, and enjoy it.
 

jod23

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Is a good article, LBJ's longevity being the major thing in his favour.

I think Jordan is the better player, and there's little to nothing LeBron can do or achieve from here that will change that, but it's hardly an insult when LBJ is currently likely to play on for a few more years yet, and sits - #3 on all-time Points Scored and #8 on Assists (both ahead of MJ) in a league that is very different to the one Jordan played in.

Appreciate the fact that we're watching one of the all-time greats now, and enjoy it.
Longevity doesnt make anyone better though.

All time most points, assists etc is great but doesn't paint the full picture. John Stockton has far and away the record for most assists of all time but he played 1504 regular season games compared to Magic Johnson's 906. Yet Magic is first all time for assists per game which is more important than total assists for me. As long as the players have played a significant amount of games for the average to be viable. Of course Magic did and his superior 11.19 to Stocktons 10.51 is the winner. Interestingly, no other player has ever averaged over 10 for a career.

I mean of course Lebron is gonna stuff the stat sheet. When he is done he will sit very high in a lot of categories for totals because you expect him to play 20-22 years. I think he will play until he is 40, he has said he wants to play with his son. No idea if Bronny Jr is gonna be good enough to make the NBA but most say he will. But that is a long long career. He could end up playing a full decade more basketball than say Michael Jordan.

So for me longevity is fine, it's great that Lebron can stay so fit and play so well for so long and good on him. He will no doubt catch Kareem and score the most points all time. But that stat is fairly pointless as its not like he's the greatest scorer ever, he's far from it really.

But longevity is just about the only thing Lebron has.

I certainly appreciate him though, hell of a player. Going to be interesting to see how he does this season and if he can continue to stay relevant with the rise of guys like Giannis and Doncic.
 

owen87

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Longevity doesnt make anyone better though.
In and of itself, no. But it’s a relevant factor.

In AFL terms; No one argues Brent Harvey is the best player ever, nor do they argue John Coleman was either.

One didn’t have a high enough peak, the other didn’t play long enough.

Jordan played long enough to cement his legacy, but if LeBron can play at a similar level until he’s 40, that’s a relevant part of the discussion when talking all-time greats of the game.
 

owen87

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Longevity doesnt make anyone better though.

All time most points, assists etc is great but doesn't paint the full picture. John Stockton has far and away the record for most assists of all time but he played 1504 regular season games compared to Magic Johnson's 906. Yet Magic is first all time for assists per game which is more important than total assists for me. As long as the players have played a significant amount of games for the average to be viable. Of course Magic did and his superior 11.19 to Stocktons 10.51 is the winner. Interestingly, no other player has ever averaged over 10 for a career.

I mean of course Lebron is gonna stuff the stat sheet. When he is done he will sit very high in a lot of categories for totals because you expect him to play 20-22 years. I think he will play until he is 40, he has said he wants to play with his son. No idea if Bronny Jr is gonna be good enough to make the NBA but most say he will. But that is a long long career. He could end up playing a full decade more basketball than say Michael Jordan.

So for me longevity is fine, it's great that Lebron can stay so fit and play so well for so long and good on him. He will no doubt catch Kareem and score the most points all time. But that stat is fairly pointless as its not like he's the greatest scorer ever, he's far from it really.

But longevity is just about the only thing Lebron has.

I certainly appreciate him though, hell of a player. Going to be interesting to see how he does this season and if he can continue to stay relevant with the rise of guys like Giannis and Doncic.
Following on from this;

I wonder whether Jordan could have ever played in a team that wasn't built around him? Basically his entire career at Chicago that team was built, and played, around him.

I can see LeBron playing alongside a guy like Giannis for example, but would / could Jordan? LBJ is a strong team player and on-court coach, one of the reasons I think he'll be able to play on longer, he'll become a lesser player but still valuable as an on-court coach directing traffic.

Jordan played under one of the all-time greatest coaches, in a team built around his talent. LBJ has had a very different career, and has by and large brought success wherever he's played (albeit not necessarily Championships) so how much of that is beyond what he does on the stat sheet?
 

jod23

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Following on from this;

I wonder whether Jordan could have ever played in a team that wasn't built around him? Basically his entire career at Chicago that team was built, and played, around him.

I can see LeBron playing alongside a guy like Giannis for example, but would / could Jordan? LBJ is a strong team player and on-court coach, one of the reasons I think he'll be able to play on longer, he'll become a lesser player but still valuable as an on-court coach directing traffic.

Jordan played under one of the all-time greatest coaches, in a team built around his talent. LBJ has had a very different career, and has by and large brought success wherever he's played (albeit not necessarily Championships) so how much of that is beyond what he does on the stat sheet?
I can't see LeBron playing alongside Giannis. LeBron is an alpha and he considers himself the GOAT. He'd never play second fiddle to anyone I don't think.

Be typical of LeBron though in his twilight to go play with Giannis or Doncic haha.
 

fidstar

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LeBron is most effective when he is dominating the ball (e.g. playing the point). Hence why he wasn't a great fit next to Wade/Bosh. He hasn't really shown he plays well in other systems.

Jordan can play in most systems and off the ball, so would actually be better suited to play with most superstars.
 

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