Play Nice Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

Remove this Banner Ad

jod23 said:
Ok I agree that all the what if's and moving people forward and backwards in time is all based on nothing as you cant quantify it. It's just opinions. So if you then go to what you said, was Jordan better in his era than LeBron is in his. Then it's even easier, yes Jordan was better in his era than LeBron is in his. More accolades, more championships, no meltdowns.





We're just going to have to massively disagree on mentality being overplayed in sport. The narrative isnt about LeBron losing an NBA Finals playing a team sport so suddenly he has a poor mentality, the narrative is built up over time using the eye test, stats and facts to reveal a players mentality towards winning. It's well documented that Jordan was ridiculous when it comes to that part of the game. LeBron not so much, he can be passive, pass in big moments and play poorly in big moments and completely meltdown in one NBA Finals against Dallas. Things like that didnt happen to MJ because of his elite mentality.

As for Harden being a better scorer than Jordan, you can use advanced metrics all you want which again we have spoken about is absolutely flawed but having said that, the only thing you are taking into consideration is FG%. You also like to bring up advanced stats which are flawed but leave normal stats like FG% which are just straight facts, no formula's to work out, just take a shot, hit it or miss it. The bottom line without diving into advanced stats is that Harden has a career FG% of .443 and Jordan has a career FG% of .497

Those stats take into consideration Jordan's end years which drags all players stats down as they wane. Harden hasnt even gotten there yet so unless he bucks the trend which is very, very rare, as he gets older his %'s will go down in his twilight further hurting his FG%.

FG% is pretty pure. You shoot a shot, you either make it or you dont. So according to FG% its more likely that when Jordan shoots a shot it goes in than when Harden shoots a shot. It's basically as simple as that. The main reason why advanced metrics weigh in Harden's favour is because advanced metrics consider a three pointer to be more valuble than a two pointer because well one shot gets you one more point. That of course massively helps Harden as he plays in today's league which is a 3 point shooting league whereas Jordan played in a time when the three point shot was a novelty. Plus they are comparable as both are SG's as you can find guys with much better FG% but arent actually better shooters like DeAndre Jordan who scores all his buckets on ducks and layup and alley oops.

But talking about someones ability to score and just using FG% or TS% or relativeTS% is flawed in itself. You have to go deeper than that and look at each player and how they score the ball. Harden is definitely the better three point shooter at .363 compared to .327 but outside of that Harden isnt better at anything else. Anywhere else on the floor Jordan will shoot it better than Harden, Harden has no post game whatsoever, no turn around jump shot, he's not as athletic as Jordan and cant finish at the rim like him. Harden cant beat you multiple ways like Jordan did.

And then to go back to something you said, about LBJ v MJ, who is better in their respective era's... well Harden has 3 scoring titles and a career average of 25.2ppg. Jordan has 10 scoring titles and has a career average of 30.1ppg which is No.1 all time. Move to the playoffs and Harden gets worse as his scoring average drops to 23.5ppg whereas Jordan's get's even better at 33.4ppg.

There is no world in which Harden is a better scorer than Jordan. Jordan is the greatest scorer of all time.
Click to expand...
Completely disagree with you on FG%. When some shots are worth 3, and some are worth 2, it's a way more misleading number than TS%.

I agree with your argument on scoring in multiple ways, and particularly the playoff drop-off for Harden's scoring. Fair enough. If Harden replicated his regular seasons in the post-season, I'd stick to my argument. But 23.5 is dog s**t so I'll concede the argument there.

No love for Wilt as greatest scorer of all time?
 
AngryRanga said:
Completely disagree with you on FG%. When some shots are worth 3, and some are worth 2, it's a way more misleading number than TS%.

I agree with your argument on scoring in multiple ways, and particularly the playoff drop-off for Harden's scoring. Fair enough. If Harden replicated his regular seasons in the post-season, I'd stick to my argument. But 23.5 is dog sh*t so I'll concede the argument there.

No love for Wilt as greatest scorer of all time?
Click to expand...
Harden is a great scorer btw but just not in Jordan's league. He scores his points so differently. Basically drives to the rim, mainly layups not dunks, FT's and three pointers. Look at this shot chart and it tells you everything about how Jordan can score and how Harden does.

oXup0ez1GYGtC4-3Rn3CPRU_Jr4YAc3LOy6MPKklmQw.jpg


That's jumpshot so takes away layups and dunks which is why there is no colour at the rim. Looking at that. Harden basically takes a three or that build up in the paint is surely his runner that he takes.

Then you look at Jordan and he can hurt you from almost anywhere on the court. Harden is very good at the one specific thing he does, but Jordan can kill you from a thousand cuts you know.

As for Wilt it's very hard to quantify. Jordan v say any player in the 80's to now is easier to compare as the league and the game hasnt changed too much. You can compare Jordan to Harden, but IMO you cant compare say Bill Russell to Shaq or Wilt Chamberlain to Olajuwon.

The game changed so much when Wilt and Russell were playing there was about 10 teams in the league and the competition was so weak. It's just too hard to make sense of a lot of Wilt's accomplishments as it was truly a different game. I guess I'd say Wilt is the greatest scorer of the old era and Jordan is the greatest scorer of the modern era.
 
jod23 said:
Yep they were, then he came back when they were 27-26. Easily in a good enough position to make the playoffs. Then in the next 19 games with LeBron back they went 4-15 and fell to 31-41. They shut him down again with 6 games to go in the season. Injury or not the Lakers werent making the playoffs that year.
Click to expand...

He came back injured ffs. If he doesn't get injured they probably get the 7th or 8th seed.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

QuietB said:
Why did Jordan never make the finals with the Wizards?

It was only his 14th and 15th season.

Was he tanking? Did he give up? 🤷‍♂️

LeBron just won a chip in his 17th season. LeBron didn’t give up
Click to expand...

You mean when he was 38/39 and hadn't played for 3 years and joined a 19 win team?

LeBron is about to turn 36 and teamed up with a 27 year old AD to win that chip. Not really apples and oranges.

Season vs season comparisons are a bit iffy anyway given Jordan went to college and retired twice. I don't hold it against LeBron that Jordan's rookie year was better given he was drafted at 21 vs 19.
 
AngryRanga said:
Harden isn't greater, or more valuable. He's straight up a better scorer.

I just fundamentally disagree with how you're approaching the argument. We can't predict what would have happened if Michael Jordan was playing now, what coaches would have said and if he was good enough to shoot 18 3s a game. What we do have is a 15 year career in which he actually played in the league.

So instead of writing fan fiction about Jordan playing today, was he better in his era than LeBron is in his?

Because otherwise, you can just make up any old sh*t you like. Like a low volume 29% 3 point shooter with a two-motion jumper wanting it more, or something.
Click to expand...

Harden is a product of his environment. If he didn't play iso ball most plays and put up 11 3s a game he wouldn't score 36 points. When Jordan started out shooting 3 or 4 threes a game was a big deal. By the time he finished it was 5 or 6. If a career 39.5% 3 point shooter like Reggie topped out at 500 attempts in a season there is zero chance beardface gets his 1,000.

I think we can predict changes to player roles. Can we accurately predict that Jordan would shoot 30 or 40 or 50% from 3 shooting 5 or 10 attempts a game? No. But given teams now shoot 2-3 times as many 3 pointers as they used to it's pretty safe to say that players today shoot more 3 pointers than players of 20 years ago. LeBron's not a great 3 point shooter, but he still shoots them at an average %. I'm pretty confident if he had played in the 90s he would've shot fewer 3s.

Fan fiction, OK. Jordan stil > LeBron.
 
You cant beat perfection
Jordan 6-0 in finals
Montana 4-0 in SB

Brady and Lebron #2s but not #1s you cannot beat perfection sorry

Lebron also got swept in the finals....... TWICE
 
brutus76 said:
You cant beat perfection
Jordan 6-0 in finals
Montana 4-0 in SB

Brady and Lebron #2s but not #1s you cannot beat perfection sorry

Lebron also got swept in the finals....... TWICE
Click to expand...

Perfection would be actually winning every single year. Never mind not actually being good enough to make it, which is the other half of the MJ story that people seem to conveniently forget.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Scotland said:
You mean when he was 38/39 and hadn't played for 3 years and joined a 19 win team?

LeBron is about to turn 36 and teamed up with a 27 year old AD to win that chip. Not really apples and oranges.

Season vs season comparisons are a bit iffy anyway given Jordan went to college and retired twice. I don't hold it against LeBron that Jordan's rookie year was better given he was drafted at 21 vs 19.
Click to expand...

Kareem won when he was 41 = GOAT
 
QuietB said:
Here are your GOAT's - all three have touched Jordan's record

K.C. Jones is the SuperGOAT - 8 chips in 9 seasons played. He was first drafted by the Lakers too which is obviously a big + :p
View attachment 986538
Click to expand...
We have been remiss in not acknowledging the tom sanders
 
jod23 said:
Ok I agree that all the what if's and moving people forward and backwards in time is all based on nothing as you cant quantify it. It's just opinions. So if you then go to what you said, was Jordan better in his era than LeBron is in his. Then it's even easier, yes Jordan was better in his era than LeBron is in his. More accolades, more championships, no meltdowns.





We're just going to have to massively disagree on mentality being overplayed in sport. The narrative isnt about LeBron losing an NBA Finals playing a team sport so suddenly he has a poor mentality, the narrative is built up over time using the eye test, stats and facts to reveal a players mentality towards winning. It's well documented that Jordan was ridiculous when it comes to that part of the game. LeBron not so much, he can be passive, pass in big moments and play poorly in big moments and completely meltdown in one NBA Finals against Dallas. Things like that didnt happen to MJ because of his elite mentality.

As for Harden being a better scorer than Jordan, you can use advanced metrics all you want which again we have spoken about is absolutely flawed but having said that, the only thing you are taking into consideration is FG%. You also like to bring up advanced stats which are flawed but leave normal stats like FG% which are just straight facts, no formula's to work out, just take a shot, hit it or miss it. The bottom line without diving into advanced stats is that Harden has a career FG% of .443 and Jordan has a career FG% of .497

Those stats take into consideration Jordan's end years which drags all players stats down as they wane. Harden hasnt even gotten there yet so unless he bucks the trend which is very, very rare, as he gets older his %'s will go down in his twilight further hurting his FG%.

FG% is pretty pure. You shoot a shot, you either make it or you dont. So according to FG% its more likely that when Jordan shoots a shot it goes in than when Harden shoots a shot. It's basically as simple as that. The main reason why advanced metrics weigh in Harden's favour is because advanced metrics consider a three pointer to be more valuble than a two pointer because well one shot gets you one more point. That of course massively helps Harden as he plays in today's league which is a 3 point shooting league whereas Jordan played in a time when the three point shot was a novelty. Plus they are comparable as both are SG's as you can find guys with much better FG% but arent actually better shooters like DeAndre Jordan who scores all his buckets on ducks and layup and alley oops.

But talking about someones ability to score and just using FG% or TS% or relativeTS% is flawed in itself. You have to go deeper than that and look at each player and how they score the ball. Harden is definitely the better three point shooter at .363 compared to .327 but outside of that Harden isnt better at anything else. Anywhere else on the floor Jordan will shoot it better than Harden, Harden has no post game whatsoever, no turn around jump shot, he's not as athletic as Jordan and cant finish at the rim like him. Harden cant beat you multiple ways like Jordan did.

And then to go back to something you said, about LBJ v MJ, who is better in their respective era's... well Harden has 3 scoring titles and a career average of 25.2ppg. Jordan has 10 scoring titles and has a career average of 30.1ppg which is No.1 all time. Move to the playoffs and Harden gets worse as his scoring average drops to 23.5ppg whereas Jordan's get's even better at 33.4ppg.

There is no world in which Harden is a better scorer than Jordan. Jordan is the greatest scorer of all time.
Click to expand...


I'm not going to comment on the other parts of this as the analysis is beyond what I understand about the sport having drifted in and out of it over long periods.

But the comment about mentality and being passive or passing in big moments - why is that wrong? Why is that an indicator of mentality? To me that is an indicator that Lebron can put his ego aside. He's made more than enough game winning plays to put to bed any argument that he can't score or pull out a play when it matters. When does he do it? When it's his moment. We laud players in all team sports for being unselfish and putting the team first and looking for someone in a better position.

In AFL terms, Tom Hawkins is going to retire with less goals than some of his other key forward brethren from this century. What does he do better than all of them? Find teammates in better positions and set them up. He is not accountable if they blow it. Yes there is a time and a place for star players to say "ok this is my responsibility, I can make the game winning play" but bowing to that and saying "this person is in a better spot than me."

John Stockton in one full season shot at .462 from three point range.

He was an elite player, and that figure is basically as good as there has been over a season (not quite the best but for the purpose of this hypothetical it will do). Now if a game is on the line and he has the ball, and there is an adequate three point shooter elsewhere on the court, and Stockton being one of the greatest passers of all time, would it be a black mark against his mentality if he passed to that player for the game winning shot?

I just can't buy that his willingness to look beyond his own abilities is somehow a bad thing.
 
PhatBoy said:
I'm not going to comment on the other parts of this as the analysis is beyond what I understand about the sport having drifted in and out of it over long periods.

But the comment about mentality and being passive or passing in big moments - why is that wrong? Why is that an indicator of mentality? To me that is an indicator that Lebron can put his ego aside. He's made more than enough game winning plays to put to bed any argument that he can't score or pull out a play when it matters. When does he do it? When it's his moment. We laud players in all team sports for being unselfish and putting the team first and looking for someone in a better position.

In AFL terms, Tom Hawkins is going to retire with less goals than some of his other key forward brethren from this century. What does he do better than all of them? Find teammates in better positions and set them up. He is not accountable if they blow it. Yes there is a time and a place for star players to say "ok this is my responsibility, I can make the game winning play" but bowing to that and saying "this person is in a better spot than me."

John Stockton in one full season shot at .462 from three point range.

He was an elite player, and that figure is basically as good as there has been over a season (not quite the best but for the purpose of this hypothetical it will do). Now if a game is on the line and he has the ball, and there is an adequate three point shooter elsewhere on the court, and Stockton being one of the greatest passers of all time, would it be a black mark against his mentality if he passed to that player for the game winning shot?

I just can't buy that his willingness to look beyond his own abilities is somehow a bad thing.
Click to expand...
Seems weird that LeBron's superior playmaking is somehow a mark against him.
 
QuietB said:
oooooh - Jordan is #3 now. KAJ still #1

backpicks.com

The Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History

Welcome to the Backpicks GOAT, a list seven years in the making! You may have seen ESPN, Slam, Elliot Kalb and Bill Simmons take a crack at the top basketball players ever. Maybe you have your own …
backpicks.com
Click to expand...
Ben Taylor is one of the best basketball analysts I've come across. His youtube channel consistently puts out high quality stuff.

It's interesting that you've just posted this as well because I just came here to post a podcast he did with Nate Duncan (who is another one of the very best basketball minds around) regarding the topic of Lebron v Jordan.

It's quite a balanced discussion so prob not for likes of jod

player.fm

#6: Nate Duncan, Part II - LeBron vs. Jordan

In Part II of our conversation, Nate and I (finally) talk Jordan vs. LeBron, comparing levels of competition, conference disparities, outside shooting, defensive consistency, longevity and the problems with Delorean-free time travel. If you like it, please support at <a...
player.fm player.fm

Keep in mind also, this podcast was recorded about 2 years ago.
 
PhatBoy said:
I'm not going to comment on the other parts of this as the analysis is beyond what I understand about the sport having drifted in and out of it over long periods.

But the comment about mentality and being passive or passing in big moments - why is that wrong? Why is that an indicator of mentality? To me that is an indicator that Lebron can put his ego aside. He's made more than enough game winning plays to put to bed any argument that he can't score or pull out a play when it matters. When does he do it? When it's his moment. We laud players in all team sports for being unselfish and putting the team first and looking for someone in a better position.

In AFL terms, Tom Hawkins is going to retire with less goals than some of his other key forward brethren from this century. What does he do better than all of them? Find teammates in better positions and set them up. He is not accountable if they blow it. Yes there is a time and a place for star players to say "ok this is my responsibility, I can make the game winning play" but bowing to that and saying "this person is in a better spot than me."

John Stockton in one full season shot at .462 from three point range.

He was an elite player, and that figure is basically as good as there has been over a season (not quite the best but for the purpose of this hypothetical it will do). Now if a game is on the line and he has the ball, and there is an adequate three point shooter elsewhere on the court, and Stockton being one of the greatest passers of all time, would it be a black mark against his mentality if he passed to that player for the game winning shot?

I just can't buy that his willingness to look beyond his own abilities is somehow a bad thing.
Click to expand...
LeBron has done it too many times. Earlier in his career more so than now but he would often go back in his shell late in games, afraid to be put on the foul line because he is such a bad FT shooter.

For me it is an indicator of mentality. Jordan only ever passed once with a chance to win it and that was the Steve Kerr shot. But he knew the double would come. Usually Jordan can beat the double and still get off the shot he wants, but that time the Jazz trapped real well and Kerr was wide open and is an excellent shooter. Outside of that though, it's pretty hard to find Jordan ever deferring.

People can talk about the Paxson three but that was a broken play, that play was meant for Jordan, he was meant to get the pass back from Pippen but Barkley reached for the steal and gave Pippen a clear driving lane, the drop off to Horace Grant and the kick out to a wide open Paxson. All worked in the end.

There are times to make the right pass sure but there is a difference between a player saying I want to make the right play to give my team a chance to win and then Jordan, give me the ball, get outta the way and I'll bring us home. LeBron did as recent as Game 5 just gone, kicked it to Danny Green for a three. Im sure Miami were thrilled, they dont mind letting Green take that shot, which was short and won them the game.

To look beyond his own abilities isnt a bad thing in general but when the game is on the line it is.
 
Last edited:
jod23 said:
LeBron has done it too many times. Earlier in his career more so than now but he would often go back in his shell late in games, afraid to be put on the foul line because he is such a bad FT shooter.

For me it is an indicator of mentality. Jordan only ever passed once with a chance to win it and that was the Steve Kerr shot. But he knew the double would come. Usually Jordan can beat the double and still get off the shot he wants, but that time the Jazz trapped real well and Kerr was wide open and is an excellent shooter. Outside of that though, it's pretty hard to find Jordan ever deferring.

People can talk about the Paxson three but that was a broken play, that play was meant for Jordan, he was meant to get the pass back from Pippen but Barkley reached for the steal and gave Pippen a clear driving lane, the drop off to Horace Grant and the kick out to a wide open Paxson. All worked in the end.

There are times to make the right pass sure but there is a difference between a player saying I want to make the right play to give my team a chance to win and then Jordan, give me the ball, get outta the way and I'll bring us home. LeBron did as recent as Game 5 just gone, kicked it to Danny Green for a three. Im sure Miami were thrilled, they dont mind letting Green take that shot, which was short and won them the game.

To look beyond his own abilities isnt a bad thing in general but when the game is on the line it is.
Click to expand...


He was triple teamed and Green was more isolated than Heard Island. It would have been a disgrace if he tried to take that game five shot himself.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Elmer_Judd
  • Locked
NBA Week 6 Thread - I'd rather anything than watch Jordan Poole
7 8 9 10 11
Replies
262
Views
5K
peternorth
P
Tandy
The Bronny James debate
Replies
1
Views
123
Braklet
Braklet
Elmer_Judd
  • Locked
NBA Week 3 Thread
7 8 9 10 11
Replies
266
Views
8K
peternorth
P
Elmer_Judd
The Bigfooty NBA Week 18 Thread - Where LeBron attends the Superbowl
5 6 7 8 9
Replies
219
Views
8K
jod23
jod23
P
  • Poll
Live Event 2022-23 NBA FINALS - Denver Nuggets * vs Miami Heat (* denotes home court advantage)
26 27 28 29 30
Replies
728
Views
13K
Judd2Sewell
Judd2Sewell
D
  • Locked
NBA Week 4 Thread where Clippers are 0-4 under Hardens system
12 13 14 15 16
Replies
392
Views
7K
peternorth
P
deeman87
Memorial Delonte West-Gloria James South Beach Cup 2023/2024 (Year 14)
4 5 6 7 8
Replies
186
Views
8K
deeman87
deeman87

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top