Play Nice Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

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fidstar

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No doubt it was a great achievement for such a young guy (not surprisingly the second GOAT has done some decent stuff), but it's definitely exaggerated as time goes on.
 

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I will concede that 23 year old LeBron outperformed 23 year old Jordan (who had a broken foot and played 18 + 3 games).

But 23 year old Jordan did come back and score 0.9 points per minute then drop 49 and 63 on the Celtics in the playoffs. Pretty outrageous that the Bulls wanted to be in the lottery and not the playoffs and that 30 wins got them 8th spot. 16/23 in the playoffs, yuck.
 

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TheBrownDog
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Jordan All NBA 1st 1987-1993, 1996-1998. LeBron 2006, 2008-2018, 2020.

Iverson played 1996-2010, Duncan 1997-2016, KG 1995-2016, Kidd 1994-2013. These are the sort of guys that people should be asking as they are the closest having played against prime Jordan and LeBron. Shaq too. Swept in the ECF by Jordan's Bulls in 1996 ECF, played a season with LeBron but never met the Cavs in the playoffs when he was at Miami.
 

RichLeMonde

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Jordan All NBA 1st 1987-1993, 1996-1998. LeBron 2006, 2008-2018, 2020.

Iverson played 1996-2010, Duncan 1997-2016, KG 1995-2016, Kidd 1994-2013. These are the sort of guys that people should be asking as they are the closest having played against prime Jordan and LeBron. Shaq too. Swept in the ECF by Jordan's Bulls in 1996 ECF, played a season with LeBron but never met the Cavs in the playoffs when he was at Miami.
And beat MJs Bulls in the Eastern Conference Finals in 95. The Last Dance will tell you it’s because Jordan had been lifting weights for baseball, the real reason is without Rodman they weren’t good enough
 

jod23

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And beat MJs Bulls in the Eastern Conference Finals in 95. The Last Dance will tell you it’s because Jordan had been lifting weights for baseball, the real reason is without Rodman they weren’t good enough
Being a Jordan fan you could see Jordan was only about 70% full power after being out so long.

The body is actually a thing. You have a completely different body with different physical traits and stamina etc. Basketball players are fitter than Baseball players generally as they just do way more running. NFL players stronger but again less cardio etc... its all different.

So yeah Jordan really did need to get back into basketball shape. Once he did... well 72-10.

Also pretty sure Shaq has said Jordan is the GOAT in the past too.
 

jod23

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Kobe played both and in pure Kobe fashion. He said he was 1, Jordan 2, and Lebron 3 when asked to rank the three. So hes saying Jordan is the GOAT too.
 

RichLeMonde

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Being a Jordan fan you could see Jordan was only about 70% full power after being out so long.

The body is actually a thing. You have a completely different body with different physical traits and stamina etc. Basketball players are fitter than Baseball players generally as they just do way more running. NFL players stronger but again less cardio etc... its all different.

So yeah Jordan really did need to get back into basketball shape. Once he did... well 72-10.

Also pretty sure Shaq has said Jordan is the GOAT in the past too.
Lol yeah that’s the reason they improved from not making the Finals to 72-10, not because they got Rodman 😂
 

jod23

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Lol yeah that’s the reason they improved from not making the Finals to 72-10, not because they got Rodman 😂
Rodman is a great defender and rebounder but the way you talk about him you would think he had similar numbers to prime Shaq haha

So you believe the team went 72-10 mainly because of Rodman, not erm... Jordan. Ok bro whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.
 

Gameova_

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Jordan is the goat. James is the closest to him. Luka in time if he continues to dominate can pass James and Jordan with a handful of titles on his resume.

Kobe was great but James is better.
 

jod23

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Jordan is the goat. James is the closest to him. Luka in time if he continues to dominate can pass James and Jordan with a handful of titles on his resume.

Kobe was great but James is better.
Luka is crazy but he's another player who doesnt do it on both ends. His defense is ... well to put it nicely, average.

You cant lay any claims to be the GOAT if you cant play both ends.
 

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RichLeMonde

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Rodman is a great defender and rebounder but the way you talk about him you would think he had similar numbers to prime Shaq haha

So you believe the team went 72-10 mainly because of Rodman, not erm... Jordan. Ok bro whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.
No, I think the improvement in the 96 Bulls compared to the 95 Bulls is largely attributable to Rodman, since he is the point of difference from one season to the next. The idea that the major point of difference was Jordan being in shape is laughable.
 

jod23

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No, I think the improvement in the 96 Bulls compared to the 95 Bulls is largely attributable to Rodman, since he is the point of difference from one season to the next. The idea that the major point of difference was Jordan being in shape is laughable.
So Jordan doesnt play the whole year, comes back and plays 17 games and is not in shape. But you believe the point of difference was Rodman and not Jordan. I lover Rodman, sensational defender and rebounder. But mate.. cmon haha
 

RichLeMonde

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So Jordan doesnt play the whole year, comes back and plays 17 games and is not in shape. But you believe the point of difference was Rodman and not Jordan. I lover Rodman, sensational defender and rebounder. But mate.. cmon haha
Yes, I am confident that Jordan was in basketball shape by the end of 27 games (including playoffs). It’s not like he had been sitting on the couch for the last 18 months - he was still a professional athlete in that time.

The inclusion of Rodman was a massively bigger factor than any slight improvement in conditioning Jordan made from one season to the next. Without Rodman there’s no way the Bulls beat the Jazz in 97-98.
 

RichLeMonde

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So Jordan doesnt play the whole year, comes back and plays 17 games and is not in shape. But you believe the point of difference was Rodman and not Jordan. I lover Rodman, sensational defender and rebounder. But mate.. cmon haha
In 95 Jordan had as teammates:
- Pippen (who Bird, while headcoach of Indiana, stated was the 2nd best player in the league behind Jordan)
- BJ Armstrong (NBA All-star)
- Kukoc (NBA 6th man award, had 3 seasons avging 18-20 ppg)
- Harper (had 8 seasons avg > 18 ppg, including 3 seasons avging > 22 ppg)
But still couldn't get past the 2nd round.

I know it doesn't fit the narrative, because of 6/6 in Finals, but Jordan needed a lot of pieces around him to actually get to the Finals.

As I've previously said, there are some scenarios where I think Jordan is more valuable than Lebron (think he would have beaten Mavs if playing for Heat instead of Lebron).

But, I believe that if he took 18 months off to play baseball then returned to play 27 games, Lebron would have taken that 95 Bulls team further than Jordan. The open looks he would have created for BJ, Kukoc and Harper, the shots he would have created for Pippen slashing to the basket, plus his own scoring, I reckon he would have taken them past the Magic and Pacers at least.
 
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fidstar

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And beat MJs Bulls in the Eastern Conference Finals in 95. The Last Dance will tell you it’s because Jordan had been lifting weights for baseball, the real reason is without Rodman they weren’t good enough
lol

So Rodman took them from a team that got beaten in 6 a team who won in 4?

Meanwhile the Magic actually got better from 95 to 96.
 

RichLeMonde

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lol

So Rodman took them from a team that got beaten in 6 a team who won in 4?

Meanwhile the Magic actually got better from 95 to 96.
Not the only factor, but the most significant one. I don’t think a lot of people realise how valuable Rodman could be. IMO he was top 15 most valuable players in the league those years.
 

fidstar

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Not the only factor, but the most significant one. I don’t think a lot of people realise how valuable Rodman could be. IMO he was top 15 most valuable players in the league those years.
Except he didn't make the Spurs better, or the Lakers after the Bulls.

No one is disputing he's a good player fwiw.
 

RichLeMonde

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Except he didn't make the Spurs better, or the Lakers after the Bulls.

No one is disputing he's a good player fwiw.
Yes, that’s why I said ‘how good he could be’, and that he was top 15 mvp in those Bulls years (and only those years) Rodman has very serious mental health issues - it’s not a surprise he didn’t add as much value to the lakers and spurs. Phil Jackson, and the Bulls team, should get a lot of credit for getting the most out of him
 

jod23

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Look you know this debate has run it's course when Rodman is the prime reason Jordan was winning titles and going 72-10.

Have a spell RichLeMonde

LBJ is the second best player of all time. That's a massive compliment but let's leave it at there...
 

RichLeMonde

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Look you know this debate has run it's course when Rodman is the prime reason Jordan was winning titles and going 72-10.

Have a spell RichLeMonde

LBJ is the second best player of all time. That's a massive compliment but let's leave it at there...
I don’t know why you insist on continuing to completely misrepresent what I say. I never said Rodman was the main reason they went 72-9. You’re carrying on like I said he was more valuable than Jordan.

Maybe you should take a spell until you recover your powers of reading comprehension.

In 95 the Bulls had Jordan (for 26 games). In 96 they still had Jordan, but added Rodman. The fact that you find it imcprehensible that the improvement of the Bulls from one season to the next might have more to do with adding an ENTIRELY NEW PLAYER than an existing player having better conditioning says a lot about your ability to evaluate things rationally rather than through Jordan coloured glasses.

Do you really think the improvement of MJ from 95 to 96 is worth more than the entirety of the player Rodman? Just to spell it out, as you seem to be struggling, the above question is not asking whether MJ was more valuable than Rodman, but whether the improvement alone of MJ from 95-96 was worth more than Rodman himself.

I presumed that you knew a bit about basketball, but if you stick to your guns on the above I will simply assume you are 11 years old and will gladly check out lol
 

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