Play Nice Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

Remove this Banner Ad

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
65,398
20,693
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
I do yeah. Jordan is the greatest of all time, he had the summer off to get back into basketball shape and ... he was pissed off. He got beat and you know him and taking things personally. Rodman was excellent and an obviously massive key part for the Bulls second three-peat but Jordan is the main reason the Bulls improved and swept all before them.

I dont know what any of this has to do with your argument for LeBron though, which in fairness, I've poked holes in repeatedly.
 

RichLeMonde

All Australian
Sep 26, 2019
839
1,265
Sydney
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Celtics
I do yeah. Jordan is the greatest of all time, he had the summer off to get back into basketball shape and ... he was pissed off. He got beat and you know him and taking things personally. Rodman was excellent and an obviously massive key part for the Bulls second three-peat but Jordan is the main reason the Bulls improved and swept all before them.

I dont know what any of this has to do with your argument for LeBron though, which in fairness, I've poked holes in repeatedly.
That is simply laughable. To be clear, I'm sure Jordan got into more of a groove, the team gelled, etc, all of which contributed to the Bulls' improvement. But adding the best rebounder and best defender in the league was just a tad more important than MJ going from 27 ppg to 30 ppg. To think otherwise is genuinely hilarious.

You haven't actually poked any holes in anything.

The reason the above is relevant to the Lebron - Jordan debate is because it makes clear that going 6/6 in Finals is not necessarily more impressive than reaching the Finals 10 times, given that Jordan couldn't even get to the Finals in 9 seasons, including in 95 with a number of very good teammates, in a team that I have no doubt Lebron would have taken further.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
65,398
20,693
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
That is simply laughable. To be clear, I'm sure Jordan got into more of a groove, the team gelled, etc, all of which contributed to the Bulls' improvement. But adding the best rebounder and best defender in the league was just a tad more important than MJ going from 27 ppg to 30 ppg. To think otherwise is genuinely hilarious.

You haven't actually poked any holes in anything.

The reason the above is relevant to the Lebron - Jordan debate is because it makes clear that going 6/6 in Finals is not necessarily more impressive than reaching the Finals 10 times, given that Jordan couldn't even get to the Finals in 9 seasons, including in 95 with a number of very good teammates, in a team that I have no doubt Lebron would have taken further.
Are you young? Are you part of the generation where everyone gets a medal just for competing.

Making the NBA Finals means absolutely nothing. Nothing. LeBron making it as many times as he has means nothing outside of the times he actually won the Championship.

The other times it just means he was the last to lose...

That Warriors 73-9 team is asterix heavy because they didnt the championship, it means fu** all that they made the NBA Finals.

Going 6/6 is HUGELY more impressive than just getting a participation medal.

But poeple keep coming back and arguing this and that and other stats but it's about the player. Who's a better player? Jordan is the better defender and Jordan is the better offensive player. LeBron has weaknesses in his game. Jordan doesnt.

That's that really...
 

Log in to remove this ad.

RichLeMonde

All Australian
Sep 26, 2019
839
1,265
Sydney
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Celtics
Are you young? Are you part of the generation where everyone gets a medal just for competing.

Making the NBA Finals means absolutely nothing. Nothing. LeBron making it as many times as he has means nothing outside of the times he actually won the Championship.

The other times it just means he was the last to lose...

That Warriors 73-9 team is asterix heavy because they didnt the championship, it means fu** all that they made the NBA Finals.

Going 6/6 is HUGELY more impressive than just getting a participation medal.

But poeple keep coming back and arguing this and that and other stats but it's about the player. Who's a better player? Jordan is the better defender and Jordan is the better offensive player. LeBron has weaknesses in his game. Jordan doesnt.

That's that really...
Mate, you’ve given up on trying to have a genuine discussion. Making the Finals is obviously better than getting knocked out in the 2nd round. The idea thing rings are the only thing that matters is just silly. You don’t judge Elgin Baylor or Jerry West on their rings because they came up against a much better team.

FYI I’m 40 years old. Maybe it’s you who could show a bit of maturity, rather than telling people to be quiet just because they have different opinions to you.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
65,398
20,693
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
Mate, you’ve given up on trying to have a genuine discussion. Making the Finals is obviously better than getting knocked out in the 2nd round. The idea thing rings are the only thing that matters is just silly. You don’t judge Elgin Baylor or Jerry West on their rings because they came up against a much better team.

FYI I’m 40 years old. Maybe it’s you who could show a bit of maturity, rather than telling people to be quiet just because they have different opinions to you.
Mate I'm just trying to help you see reason.

Why is making the Finals better than losing in the 2nd round. What do you get for losing in the second round and for losing in the Finals? You get nothing.

Rings are not everything I agree, Horry has 7 and Barkley has 0 but everyone knows who the better player was. Being the GOAT is a mash up of a ton of things.

You never seem to address any of the weaknesses I bring up about LeBron though, he's not an elite defender. You cant be the GOAT without being an elite defender, he's a liability at the foul line, you cant be the GOAT if you cant be trusted to take late game FT's. He's had meltdowns in big moments, you cant be the GOAT if you have meltdowns in big moment.

I love LeBron, he's incredible. He's just simply not the best to ever do it.
 

fidstar

Brownlow Medallist
May 9, 2013
13,489
9,253
AFL Club
West Coast
Fun fact. If LeBron had of played his entire career in the West he would be 4/4 in the Finals. If MJ had been in the West he would be 6/6 in the Finals.

Which one is more impressive?

Making the Finals is great, and is a good level of consistency. It's a tribute to his consistency.

But he took advantage of a very poor East. There were numerous times his teams were not the 2nd best team in the league the year they made the Finals. 2007 and 2018 definitely, plus others where it would be a stretch.

I also believe the Warriors win 2016 if they didn't have a massive series against OKC in the WCF. e.g. Swap the conference Finals over (e.g. Warriors play Raptors and Cavs play OKC) and I think the Finals comes out different. I'm not even confident that the Cavs beat OKC.

Meanwhile a pretty good argument can be made the Bulls were the 2nd best team in the league in 89 and 90 even though they didn't make the Finals.
 

RichLeMonde

All Australian
Sep 26, 2019
839
1,265
Sydney
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Celtics
Fun fact. If LeBron had of played his entire career in the West he would be 4/4 in the Finals. If MJ had been in the West he would be 6/6 in the Finals.

Which one is more impressive?

Making the Finals is great, and is a good level of consistency. It's a tribute to his consistency.

But he took advantage of a very poor East. There were numerous times his teams were not the 2nd best team in the league the year they made the Finals. 2007 and 2018 definitely, plus others where it would be a stretch.

I also believe the Warriors win 2016 if they didn't have a massive series against OKC in the WCF. e.g. Swap the conference Finals over (e.g. Warriors play Raptors and Cavs play OKC) and I think the Finals comes out different. I'm not even confident that the Cavs beat OKC.

Meanwhile a pretty good argument can be made the Bulls were the 2nd best team in the league in 89 and 90 even though they didn't make the Finals.
They’re fun but they’re not facts.

But - they are good points to think about. The conclusion I draw from your observations is that you can’t jusge the best 2 teams by the 2 that make the Finals. Similarly, you can’t kusge the best player by who wins the most rings, as winning is heavily dependent on oppo and teammates. You can look at stats, but ultimately I think all you can do is thought experiments, like you have done, where you imagine what would happen if players were swapped. We obviously disagree, but by that metric I’m certain that there are series where LeBron did - or would have - won series with teams that MJ wouldn’t have, while I acknowledge that the reverse is also true, with different teams and series
 

RichLeMonde

All Australian
Sep 26, 2019
839
1,265
Sydney
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Celtics
Are you young? Are you part of the generation where everyone gets a medal just for competing.

Making the NBA Finals means absolutely nothing. Nothing. LeBron making it as many times as he has means nothing outside of the times he actually won the Championship.

The other times it just means he was the last to lose...

That Warriors 73-9 team is asterix heavy because they didnt the championship, it means fu** all that they made the NBA Finals.

Going 6/6 is HUGELY more impressive than just getting a participation medal.

But poeple keep coming back and arguing this and that and other stats but it's about the player. Who's a better player? Jordan is the better defender and Jordan is the better offensive player. LeBron has weaknesses in his game. Jordan doesnt.

That's that really...
That’s that lol? I’d rather have LBJ’s rebounding + defence than Jordan’s rebounding + defence. And I’d rather have Lebron’s 27.1ppg + 7.4 apg than MJ’s 30.1 + 5.3 apg.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
65,398
20,693
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
That’s that lol? I’d rather have LBJ’s rebounding + defence than Jordan’s rebounding + defence. And I’d rather have Lebron’s 27.1ppg + 7.4 apg than MJ’s 30.1 + 5.3 apg.
A lot of people talk about rebound numbers which is irrelevant. You have to put it into context. Lebron SHOULD get more rebounds than Jordan because he's bigger and taller. Ewing averaged more rebounds than both does that mean hes the goat. No... Ewing gets more rebounds because its relevant to his position.

Jordan is actually an elite rebounder for his position which is SG. He's also elite in assists at his position too.

LeBron now plays PG and gets lots of assists... because well he plays PG. Jordan was once asked to play PG in 89 and over 24 games at PG Jordan averaged 30.4ppg, 9.2rpg, 10.7apg and 2.4spg.

There is nothing Jordan couldn't do.

If you wanna take Lebron over MJ because he averages a small amount more rebounds and assists per game but ignore basically everything else ive said about Lebrons weaknesses, his meltdown moments, his sub par defense and FT shooting, his inferior mentality and his less rings, less personal awards and accolades and tje fact he trails Jordan in almost every stat, advanced and normal then ... I dont know.

I guess youre just a LeBron fan and thats cool bro.
 

RichLeMonde

All Australian
Sep 26, 2019
839
1,265
Sydney
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Celtics
A lot of people talk about rebound numbers which is irrelevant. You have to put it into context. Lebron SHOULD get more rebounds than Jordan because he's bigger and taller. Ewing averaged more rebounds than both does that mean hes the goat. No... Ewing gets more rebounds because its relevant to his position.

Jordan is actually an elite rebounder for his position which is SG. He's also elite in assists at his position too.

LeBron now plays PG and gets lots of assists... because well he plays PG. Jordan was once asked to play PG in 89 and over 24 games at PG Jordan averaged 30.4ppg, 9.2rpg, 10.7apg and 2.4spg.

There is nothing Jordan couldn't do.

If you wanna take Lebron over MJ because he averages a small amount more rebounds and assists per game but ignore basically everything else ive said about Lebrons weaknesses, his meltdown moments, his sub par defense and FT shooting, his inferior mentality and his less rings, less personal awards and accolades and tje fact he trails Jordan in almost every stat, advanced and normal then ... I dont know.

I guess youre just a LeBron fan and thats cool bro.
This is actually funny. ‘Rebounds don’t count because Lebron’s bigger!’ I couldn’t help but read your post I’m the voice of my 10 year old nephew when he throws a tanty lol
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
65,398
20,693
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
This is actually funny. ‘Rebounds don’t count because Lebron’s bigger!’ I couldn’t help but read your post I’m the voice of my 10 year old nephew when he throws a tanty lol
Lol. There is no helping you mate. It's like you just dont understand the game.

You consistently just dont address key points I make cos you know you cant break them down into LeBron's favour.

It's ok to be number two all time.
 

Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
57,502
61,930
AFL Club
West Coast
In 95 Jordan had as teammates:
- Pippen (who Bird, while headcoach of Indiana, stated was the 2nd best player in the league behind Jordan)
- BJ Armstrong (NBA All-star)
- Kukoc (NBA 6th man award, had 3 seasons avging 18-20 ppg)
- Harper (had 8 seasons avg > 18 ppg, including 3 seasons avging > 22 ppg)
But still couldn't get past the 2nd round.
And in 96 they didn't have Armstrong. None of Rodman, Kukoc, Longley, Kerr, Harper, Wennington etc. featured in 91-93. You could argue that the 91-93 Bulls with Jordan, Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, Cartwright were a handy team too. If you were so inclined.

I know it doesn't fit the narrative, because of 6/6 in Finals, but Jordan needed a lot of pieces around him to actually get to the Finals.
You seem to think Rodman was the difference from 95 to 96, not Jordan. Rodman was a rebounding machine but offered very little offensively.

Jordan scored 26.9 points a game in 94/95, his lowest scoring season since 85/86 where he only played 18 games and was put on minutes restrictions. He was good in the playoffs but lacked the conditioning to consistently dominate as he did in other years. In 95/96 Jordan was back to full fitness and won MVP and finals MVP again. And lo and behold Chicago won 72 games not 47.

As I've previously said, there are some scenarios where I think Jordan is more valuable than Lebron (think he would have beaten Mavs if playing for Heat instead of Lebron).

But, I believe that if he took 18 months off to play baseball then returned to play 27 games, Lebron would have taken that 95 Bulls team further than Jordan. The open looks he would have created for BJ, Kukoc and Harper, the shots he would have created for Pippen slashing to the basket, plus his own scoring, I reckon he would have taken them past the Magic and Pacers at least.
That is your prerogative, but I can play the game above too.

LeBron couldn't win in 2011 with Wade, Bosh, Bibby and Joel Anthony. He couldn't win in 2014 with Wade, Bosh, Chalmers, Rashad Lewis and Ray Allen. In 2010 he couldn't get to the finals with Shaq (HOF), Mo Williams (All Star), Ilgauskas (All Star) and Antawn Jamison (All Star, 6MOTY).

Maybe LeBron with 18 months of baseball under his belt would've done better in 94/95 vs Shaq, Penny, Horace, then Reggie, Mark Jackson, Rik Smits etc. then Hakeem, Clyde the glide, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell etc. but I doubt it. It's all hypothetical. The records show that Jordan played, lost in the ECSF then came back and won 3peat 2.0. LeBron plays GM and surrounds himself with all stars and is still 4/10.
 

RichLeMonde

All Australian
Sep 26, 2019
839
1,265
Sydney
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Celtics
You seem to think Rodman was the difference from 95 to 96, not Jordan. Rodman was a rebounding machine but offered very little offensively.
Yes, I think the addition of Rodman's 5.5 ppg, 15 rpg, and 2.5 apg were worth more than Jordan's "improvements", from 95 to 96, of +3.5 ppg, -0.3 rpg, and -1 apg. Rodman effectively added 10.5ppg (ppg + 2 x apg), while the 96 version of Jordan effectively added 1.5ppg (ppg + 2 x apg) compared to the 95 version, while Rodman also added 15 rpg compared to Jordan contributing less on the boards in 96 than in 95.

It is absolutely laughable to think that Jordan's improvement from 96 to 95 somehow, despite all evidence, outweighed Rodman's entire contribution.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
65,398
20,693
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
Yes, I think the addition of Rodman's 5.5 ppg, 15 rpg, and 2.5 apg were worth more than Jordan's "improvements", from 95 to 96, of +3.5 ppg, -0.3 rpg, and -1 apg. Rodman effectively added 10.5ppg (ppg + 2 x apg), while the 96 version of Jordan effectively added 1.5ppg (ppg + 2 x apg) compared to the 95 version, while Rodman also added 15 rpg compared to Jordan contributing less on the boards in 96 than in 95.

It is absolutely laughable to think that Jordan's improvement from 96 to 95 somehow, despite all evidence, outweighed Rodman's entire contribution.
******* lol.

Just stop it bro.
 

fidstar

Brownlow Medallist
May 9, 2013
13,489
9,253
AFL Club
West Coast
Yes, I think the addition of Rodman's 5.5 ppg, 15 rpg, and 2.5 apg were worth more than Jordan's "improvements", from 95 to 96, of +3.5 ppg, -0.3 rpg, and -1 apg. Rodman effectively added 10.5ppg (ppg + 2 x apg), while the 96 version of Jordan effectively added 1.5ppg (ppg + 2 x apg) compared to the 95 version, while Rodman also added 15 rpg compared to Jordan contributing less on the boards in 96 than in 95.

It is absolutely laughable to think that Jordan's improvement from 96 to 95 somehow, despite all evidence, outweighed Rodman's entire contribution.
lol at using points/rebounds etc. Do you even basketball?

Here's some real ones.

MJ went from a PER of 22.1 to 29.7, BPM of 4.2 to 10.5 and VORP of 1.1 to 9.8 between the 95 and 96 regular season. Note - He led the league in 96 for all those 3 stats.

Then there's the playoffs. MJ wasn't actually terrible in the 95 playoffs, but he improved in 96. MJ went from 0.150 WS/48 mins to 0.306 (league leading) from 95 playoffs to 96 playoffs. He was also up 20% in all PER, VORP and BPM from one post season to the next.

Then there's the crunch time stuff, where MJ went from turning the ball over 2 times in the final 30 seconds in Game 1 (causing them to lose), and missing 6 straight shots in the final quarter in Game 6 when the Bulls were leading (they ended up losing) against the Magic because his body wasn't right, to destroying the Magic the next year.

Rodman was good, but the facts are if MJ played as well in the 95 season as he did in 96, Bulls at least make the Finals.
 
Last edited:

BEaston

Hungry
Oct 9, 2013
6,503
7,076
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
I think that's the other way around mate. If you have a clue about basketball then you know LeBron is not an elite defender.
Yeah I've watched enough bball, listened to enough knowledgeable people on the subject and delved into the numbers enough to know.
Please don't be offended if on this topic I ignore the middle aged bloke with 17 Jordan posters still on his bedroom wall.
It's comments like this that give any sense of your credibility away.
I'm not going to try convince you, but if you want to learn a thing or two listen to the podcast I posted earlier in the thread.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
65,398
20,693
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
Yeah I've watched enough bball, listened to enough knowledgeable people on the subject and delved into the numbers enough to know.
Please don't be offended if on this topic I ignore the middle aged bloke with 17 Jordan posters still on his bedroom wall.
It's comments like this that give any sense of your credibility away.
I'm not going to try convince you, but if you want to learn a thing or two listen to the podcast I posted earlier in the thread.
I'm not offended. It's difficult to take you seriously.

The eye test is enough to know LeBron is not elite defensively.
 

RichLeMonde

All Australian
Sep 26, 2019
839
1,265
Sydney
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Celtics
lol at using points/rebounds etc. Do you even basketball?

Here's some real ones.

MJ went from a PER of 22.1 to 29.7, BPM of 4.2 to 10.5 and VORP of 1.1 to 9.8 between the 95 and 96 regular season. Note - He led the league in 96 for all those 3 stats.

Then there's the playoffs. MJ wasn't actually terrible in the 95 playoffs, but he improved in 96. MJ went from 0.150 WS/48 mins to 0.306 (league leading) from 95 playoffs to 96 playoffs. He was also up 20% in all PER, VORP and BPM from one post season to the next.

Then there's the crunch time stuff, where MJ went from turning the ball over 2 times in the final 30 seconds in Game 1 (causing them to lose), and missing 6 straight shots in the final quarter in Game 6 when the Bulls were leading (they ended up losing) against the Magic because his body wasn't right, to destroying the Magic the next year.

Rodman was good, but the facts are if MJ played as well in the 95 season as he did in 96, Bulls at least make the Finals.
If you think Jordan's improvement from 96 to 95 is worth more than Rodman, that means you'd rather take 96 Jordan than 95 Jordan plus Rodman in a team. If you think any GM or coach in history would rather have 96 Jordan than 95 Jordan plus Rodman then I can't take anything you say seriously. Rodman wouldn't make a top 50 players of all time but he's close (Bleacher Report's top 50 lists him as a 'painful ommission'). I'm well aware of just how great MJ was, but these claims are really approaching a level of delusion now.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
65,398
20,693
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
I'm well aware of just how great MJ was, but these claims are really approaching a level of delusion now.
That's the thing, I dont think you do. I mean even after we have discussed LeBron's many failures and shortcomings and how he comes up short in every advanced metric, comes up short in awards and accolades and loses the eye test, discuss his weaknesses too yet here you are still saying LBJ is the GOAT.

So yeah, I really dont think you're aware of just how great MJ was.
 

fidstar

Brownlow Medallist
May 9, 2013
13,489
9,253
AFL Club
West Coast
If you think Jordan's improvement from 96 to 95 is worth more than Rodman, that means you'd rather take 96 Jordan than 95 Jordan plus Rodman in a team. If you think any GM or coach in history would rather have 96 Jordan than 95 Jordan plus Rodman then I can't take anything you say seriously.
Every GM would. Here it's explained a bit easier for you.

MJ in 96 was (easily) the best player in the world. MJ in 95 was probably somewhere between 10-20th best player in the world. Particularly when you take into account crunch time.

You very rarely win Championships without the best player in the world, or at least a Top 3 player. In the last 12 years only one team has done it. From 91 to 2003, no team did it.

95 Jordan was probably the equivalent to a Beal or McCollum.

Would you take LeBron or McCollum plus Beverly?
 

Remove this Banner Ad