Play Nice Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

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darren forssman

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Because the 2014 draft had a heap of good PGs?

There's like 1 half decent one and he went mid second round, so even the experts didn't see that one.
Depends how you classify them these days.

Smart could classify as PG, probably sees himself as one as well. Also, the hype around Exum was massive at the time (I was no big fan myself). Elfrid "Cannot shoot to save myself" Payton has been as solid if not better than Napier. Clarkson listed as a PG but could be a combo guard I guess.

Spencer Dinwiddie (was he the mid second round you referred to), he was drafted coming off a lost year in college in my dynasty fantasy league where Napier went undrafted.

But yeah, pretty barren after that. But has Napier been better than say Frazier?
 

Scotland

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Not so much Jordan related but saw a YouTube video (A.M. Hoops) suggesting that if you switched LeBron and Curry, the Warriors would be a contender, while with Curry they are making up the numbers. Not really sure why a LeBron > Curry video needed to be made, no one older than about 15 is arguing Curry is the GOAT.

Is LeBron, Draymond, Wiggins, Oubre, Wiseman a title contending side? Not a great shooting side, the only centre is a rookie and very little depth. LeBron is great, but he won titles with AD, Kyrie/Love and DWade/Bosh among others. Replace Oubre or Wiggins with Klay sure, but none of the Warriors team bar Curry are likely to make the 2021 All Star game. The only recent teams to make the finals with one All Star are the Cavs with Kyrie injured during that part of the season, and both he and Love were regular All Stars, and the 2014 Spurs at the end of their Duncan, Parker etc. run. For the most part teams win with multiple stars. I don't believe you can take LeBron, Curry, KD, Giannis - whoever, and pit them against teams with multiple superstars and think they will win without superstar help.

On the flip side what about Curry on the Lakers? Take out LeBron and they still have AD, Gasol and Harrell who can score inside and Curry is more than capable of running the offence and scores 25-30 a game shooting 40%+ from 3. I thought it was a lazy take to pump up LeBron's legacy at the expense of Curry being without Klay and KD.
 

fidstar

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Weird waste of time Youtube video.

LeBron is probably the greatest floor lifter of all time. Even better than MJ.

But Curry is one of the best ceiling lifters of all time. He'd make any team immediately better, because he's so good off the ball.

Curry on the Lakers instead of LeBron, and they would still be title favorites.
 

maryjames

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Weird waste of time Youtube video.

LeBron is probably the greatest floor lifter of all time. Even better than MJ.

But Curry is one of the best ceiling lifters of all time. He'd make any team immediately better, because he's so good off the ball.

Curry on the Lakers instead of LeBron, and they would still be title favorites.
Nup. MJ in today’s league would destroy more so then he did in the 80s and 90s. No hand checks free flowing games of today with point scoring average up by so much.. be ridiculous actually.
 

Mootsy

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MJ's support was very ordinary for a long time. Green and Oakley were solid players but not like having a Wade or Davis/Howard/Rondo. Even Pippen/Grant took some time to develop.
He personally beat Bird's stats though, often and Bird would state "He's god in disguise". , just couldn't win the game, the Celtics were an all-star team, just about.
 

fidstar

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Nup. MJ in today’s league would destroy more so then he did in the 80s and 90s. No hand checks free flowing games of today with point scoring average up by so much.. be ridiculous actually.
I didn't say he was a better player. I said he was a better "floor lifter".
 

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blackcat

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good post jod23
lemme add some stuff




circa 89 Orlando Woolridge lead the NBA in scoring half way thru the season, mano-a-mano w Michael Adams who was his point suard used Loyola Westmount coach Paul Westhead and his run-n-gun offense

Sedale Threatt I believe coaches basketball as private coach with his son in Melbourne and has done for close to a decade , the point who took over from Magic when he got HIV
* Walt Frazier had the first deal with Puma I believe in late 60s

By 1980s Converse had Magic, was bird with adidas or Converse or puma? But chump change to their regular salary, and now the regular salary is chump change compared to the shoe endorsements for an American who makes the First or Second team All NBa and throws it down like Derrick Rose
vvvv



( Zgope1 )
I dont think one can make a sustained argument that is not temporal (to/of both individuals receiver and perveyor ) , and sans the Nike mythos with Spike Lee or whoever did those ads

No one got the shoe deals before MJ , this was all Portland Oregon Nike HQ and their marketing executive team married to Richard Falk,

Clutch with Maverick Carter and Rich Paul took the game and added their own IP , and sold out to the LA Hollywood agents talent factory : United Artists

Well played by all , Falk and MJ , Lebron and his cadre at Clutch

I don't think anyone will mention it, but when LBJ wishes to bring defense and smother someone, he can, but I think he is best as a quarterback on defense and free-safety to block shots from the weakside as he closes space and closes-out on offensive threats. I think this is his biggest weapon. So one can say, oh Rudy Goubert, Robert Covington, David Robinson, Hakeem , yeah, they are phenomenal to contest shots and block shots and discourage attacks to the hoop , But LBJ does so much more when he is motivated and the finals need to be one won.

I thought Stef would be one of the HoF'ers and top5 players and threaten the GOATs when he had that 2017 season and was unanimous MVP but Lebron made him look like an AA rec league high-school player in the finals.

Kobe Kawhi MetaWorldpeace , phenomenal on defense, so is Giannis, but none can do what LBJ does on D. Many can do what he does on offense however. Sacrilege that Gasol was DPotY years back. But that is cos the voters were tired LBJ sweeping post-season awards season. I think this is where Maverick and Rich highground one social media was coming back to bite them. To be DPotY this narrative needed to be pushed in his first 6 years in the league. MJ was battlinh Sidney Moncrief, MadMax Houston Rockets Vernon Maxwell, Cooper at LA, Alvin Robertson at Milwaukee Bucks, he had to beat other guards , Not Utah Centre Mike Eaton

LBJ also brings extra coach on the floor. This potentially can be a d.e.t.e.r.r.e.n.t not a help pending the relationship with the backoffice and hierarchy
But he usually can mine his experience and bring his court intelligence and in-game-experience to bear on games that no one else has in the history of the game. MJ was higher-IQ, Kober too, I am sure Kareem and Wilt brought similar lens , but LBJ is higher level altogether, and year after year this can only accrete

For MJ, I know which player I want to decide the game in the fourth quarter . But Boston 2-Guard Reggie Lewis blocked about 4 games of MJs when they were matched up, Lewis has similar length of his levers to Andrei Kirilenko at Utah .

Kyrie Irving has said recently as much re: closing games.

MJ needed coach Jackson too , a like minded alpha. They could mould Pip and Grant into great players, and Rodman when he replaced Grant. That was MJ's doing too, as much as it was Jackson.
I don't think there is much validity in anything he says there. His expression on his face at the end when he says and that my case says it all, he knows he's clutching massively at straws and the way the other guys all find it hilarious. :D

Let's look at his ridiculous points though.

1. A total loser without Pippen.

So I don't think Nick Wright does much research, he's more a propaganda guy but Jordan was drafted to the Bulls who were god awful. They had the second worst record in the league (27-55) the season before Jordan arrived and avoided the worst record in the league by just one win, that's how bad they were. In Jordan's first year at the Bulls in which he improved them to 38-44 and dragged them into the playoffs, these were his teammates.

Dave Corzine
Chris Engler
Quinten Daily
Sidney Green
Dave Greenwood
Rod Higgins
Steve Johnson
Caldwell Jones
Charles Jones
Wes Matthews
Jawann Oldham
Ennis Whatley
Orlando Woolridge

Yikes. I mean who the fu** are any of those players. Woolridge the only half decent player but not even an All Star. Even die hard NBA fans would stuggle to know even any of those players.

In Jordan's second year in the league the Bulls managed to acquire a little help for Jordan. The Bulls traded Dave Greenwood (who?) amazingly for George Gervin a former All Star and big time scorer, but it would be Gervin's final year in the NBA before he retired. The Bulls also got John Paxson through free agency and Ennis Whatley was traded for Charles Oakley. Alas the Bulls went backwards finishing the season 30-52 because Jordan broke his foot and basically missed the entire season.

Jordan's third year in the league (second actually playing) and the Bulls surged up the standings finishing the season 40-42. He still had no help, the Bulls had lost Woolridge through free agency and just had Oakley and Paxson as help. The roster at this point had guys like ...

Gene Banks
Mike Brown
Fred Cofield
Steve Colter
Dave Corzine
Earl Cureton
Darren Dave
Pete Myers
Ben Poquette
Brad Sellers
Sedale Threatt
Elstone Turner
Granville Waiters
Perry Young

A veritable who's who of NBA Basketball.

The following year, Jordan's 4th, the Bulls drafted both Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen and finished the 87/88 season 50-32. So technically Nick Wright is correct. In the three years before Pippen's arrival the Bulls did not post a winning record. 38-44 in Jordan's rookie season, 30-52 in Jordan's second season (injured the whole year) and 40-42 in Jordan's third year.

So a total loser without Scottie Pippen is by and large correct, I dont know if making the playoffs every year before Pippen turned up with those rosters I've listed can be considered a total loser is up for discussion. Not to mention, Wright suggests Jordan only started winning once Pippen arrived, the Bulls went 50-32 in Pip's rookie season. Pippen wasnt a Jordan, LeBron, Duncan kind of rookie though, he averaged 7.9ppg, 3.8rpg and 2.1apg so I dont think Pippen suddenly turned the Bulls into a winning franchise, that was Jordan that did that as he won his first MVP on route to a 50 win season in 87/88.

So sure Nick Wright's first point is technically correct but if you actually dive into it, it's pretty ridiculous.

2. Never once beat Larry Bird.

This one is just a weird one. What has this got to do with anything? Wright says Jordan never once beat Larry Bird in the playoffs and yep that is absolutely true. In the 1985/86 playoffs, the Bulls lost to the Celtic 3-0 in the first round, the 1986 Boston Celtics are widely regarded as one of the greatest teams of all time. They won the championship that season, went 67-15 and had a roster with Larry Bird, McHale, Parish, Ainge, Dennis Johnson and Bill Walton. Jordan as great as he is, with zero help, is not winning a game there or the series.

Hell, in game two he scored an NBA playoffs record of 63 points in one game and Bird after the game described Jordan as God in disguise but still lost the game because the Celtics were just too great. This is also the same season where Jordan came back after breaking his foot and played just 18 regular season games, starting just 7.

The next year the Bulls faced the Celtics again where Gene Banks was Chicago's third top scorer in that series with 10ppg. Gene Banks. The Celtics meanwhile were the same team with four HOF's and beat Chicago 3-0.

Those two series were the only times Jordan and Bird met in the playoffs. Bird was in his prime and had a loaded roster and one of the greatest team of all time and Jordan had Gene Banks.

I mean this point that Nick Wright makes is just stupid.

3. Could never beat a super team. (Celtics, Pistons, Magic)

Well this is just wrong as the three teams he mentions that were super teams that Jordan could never beat, well he beat two of them. In fact he swept two of them. You just read the reasons above why Jordan and the Bulls couldnt beat the Celtics in those two years, after which the Celtics kind of fell away anyways and despite making the playoffs, never ran into Chicago again.

Jordan swept the Pistons on his way to his first title and the Magic beat a rusty Jordan having sat out almost two years of basketball and having only played 17 games on his return. The following season, Jordan's Bulls went 72-10 and swept the the 60 win Orlando Magic "superteam" as Nick Wright calls them.

So his third point is just wrong as Jordan beat both the Pistons and the Magic.

4. The East was terrible.

The East was far from terrible so I dont know where he is getting that stuff from. Nick Wright points to the fact that during Jordan's title runs that in the East no team had more than one HOFer on it. But I didnt know that was how you judge great teams. Sure HOFers are great basketball players and having more HOFers certainly helps but basketball is a team game and there was plenty of great teams in the East.Since

Since Wright is only going from when Jordan won his first title, first of all he beat the Pistons on route to his first title and they had more than one HOF but if we dont count those then yeah he is correct about his one HOF shout. Atlanta and Nique, the Cavs didnt have any HOFers, Knicks and Ewing, Magic and Shaq, Indiana and Reggie Miller, the Heat and Zo but that doesnt mean the East was terrible.

Those Pacers teams were loaded with Miller, Smits, Rose, Mullin, Jackson, the Knicks were a great team and a championship one if it wasnt for Jordan with Ewing, Starks, Oakley, Mason, Rivers, Smith. Those Cavs teams with Mark Price, Daugherty, Larry Nance and co. The 61 win Heat team with Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Majerle and Mashburn.

The East was far from terrible so I dont know what Nick Wright is going on about.

5. Everyone won rings on his watch. (Bird, Kareem, Magic, Isiah, Olajuwon, Drexler, Shaq, Kobe, Robinson, Duncan)

This is Nick Wright's most amusing and ridiculous point. He includes guys winning championships on Jordan watch which include Shaq and Kobe and Robinson and Duncan. Haha. Jordan retired for three years came back at 40 and played with a bunch of scrubs at Washington. Somehow I dont think it was really Jordan's watch anymore.

He includes Drexler and Olajuwon haha again Jordan had retired. Then includes Magic, Kareem, Bird and Isiah who all won titles before Jordan got his first.

The point people make in the GOAT debate about LeBron and Jordan is that people do eat on LeBron's watch. LeBron has been the best player in the league for a long time now but once LBJ reached the top, he was knocked off. He reached the top again, he was knocked off. He's reached the top again now, let's see what happens. The point about Jordan is that once he got to the top, it was over. Nobody ate. He had to retire to let someone else win, then he came out of retirement and had to retire for a second time to let other teams win again.

Jordan was never knocked off his perch like LeBron has so this is a really weak point from Nick Wright.

So in summary, no I dont agree with you that everything Nick Wright said there was valid.
 
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fidstar

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LeBron made Steph look like an AA player. LeBron never guarded Steph, so I'm not sure how that works.

LeBron is great off the ball and blocking shots? You're seriously comparing him to David Robinson and Hakeem? Come on. Dude averages basically the same blocks a game as MJ (inc playoffs) despite being bigger/taller. Just because he's had some awesome highlight blocks that doesn't mean much. I'd argue that he's way below what he should be averaging (around 1.5 blocks per game).
 

jod23

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LeBron just isnt a great defender. He's never been an elite defender, even when at his best, when you look at him and say a guy like Kawhi, Giannis, Butler etc... he just isnt in those conversations.

He kinda reminds me of Shaq defensively. Has all the tools, but just kinda half asses it which given their supreme talent still makes them pretty good but just not elite.
 

blackcat

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LeBron made Steph look like an AA player. LeBron never guarded Steph, so I'm not sure how that works.

LeBron is great off the ball and blocking shots? You're seriously comparing him to David Robinson and Hakeem? Come on. Dude averages basically the same blocks a game as MJ (inc playoffs) despite being bigger/taller. Just because he's had some awesome highlight blocks that doesn't mean much. I'd argue that he's way below what he should be averaging (around 1.5 blocks per game).
when he was switched on to Curry or important isolation plays where he had him

Blocks are a sum of your position , see Covington at Houston versus Philadelphia or Minnesota
 

blackcat

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LBJ can put clamps on
Steph
Lillard
Harden
Giannis

not sure Kawhi can, and MJ ankles broken by AI plus a Washington Bullets jersey Rod Strickland

pretty diverse set of players, usually when they say that can play all 5positions they are talking on the offensive end

Dru Holiday is one who can defend bigs at 6'4" with long levers and narrow shoulders, Shaq and Embiid don't count

Simmons will on defensive end when he becomes a bit stronger because Giannis makes him his b*tch dow on the low block
 

jod23

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LBJ can put clamps on
Steph
Lillard
Harden
Giannis

not sure Kawhi can, and MJ ankles broken by AI plus a Washington Bullets jersey Rod Strickland

pretty diverse set of players, usually when they say that can play all 5positions they are talking on the offensive end

Dru Holiday is one who can defend bigs at 6'4" with long levers and narrow shoulders, Shaq and Embiid don't count

Simmons will on defensive end when he becomes a bit stronger because Giannis makes him his b*tch dow on the low block
Jrue?

Also you cant count some players and no others. You cant say a bloke can guard all 5 positions, except for Shaq or Embiid. That means he cant defend at C.

LeBron cant defend all 5 spots. Nobody really can.
 

fidstar

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You obviously realise that LeBron has never played a playoff series against (peak) Harden or Giannis. He also never defends Lillard or Curry. You've just picked 5 great players.
 

blackcat

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You obviously realise that LeBron has never played a playoff series against (peak) Harden or Giannis. He also never defends Lillard or Curry. You've just picked 5 great players.
I can criticise his offense, but I put on record when he brings it on the other side of the floor

Your critique of me(my LBJ assessment) is much the same way as folks look at the Champion-Data TedHopkins and box score of Dustin Martin and deduce that Martin got no <tackles> and will not play on his opponent (therefore =\= normsmith calibre) .

Its a Nashian Game Theory at CarnegieMellon interpretation or formula

Dusty will distribute and prioritise his efforts according to his impact on a game. Basketball is a game disproportionately affected by the performance on the offensive play, so LBJ will marshal his intensity to have the greatest influence on the game. Lesser players can be brought in to strengthen Richmond's tackle intensity

I think some of LBJ's ouevre (positive/complimentary) is blown out of proportion re:legacy and status

Just like Oregon marketing department and Nike mythos working hand-in-hand with David Falk made Jordan, so have Maverick Carter and Rich Falk made LeBron

80s to even 90s the debate was if Bird and Magic have surpassed Russell , skipping Wilt

Kyrie Irving and Ray Allen are not fans of LBJ and they played with him and saw him 'every day'

If one has not been an nba pro can one make deduction ,

this is both temporal and hindsight, perhaps Kobe was the best equipped to make judgement, but he threw his baton in the ring too

The Nashian Gametheory lens, I would have loved if LeBron was a 32per game scorer and had the knockdown midrange of Rip Hamilton and Demare DeRozan and Kawhi Leonard(know) then LeBron becomes a 22 and 12(assist) player in latter stages

but I am a simple punter

fidstar don't @ me wrt Embiid and Shaq , you know what I was saying

p'raps Rodman makes a go of job extinguishing Shaq's influence, but those hulking behemoths will be unstoppable* when they are playing their A-game

*asterisk was for potential conflict I make in impressing my argument

Zgope1
 
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