Play Nice Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

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fidstar

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1 Jordan
2 Bron
3 Kareem
4 Magic
5 Shaq
6 Bird
7 Wilt
8 Dream
9 Russell
10 Duncan
11 Oscar
12 West
13 K Malone
14 Durant
15 Kobe
16 Curry
17 M Malone
18 Erving
19 Stockton
20 Barkley

After actually running it, it looks like Kobe just makes the Top 15.

Curry probably gets past Kobe by the end of his career.

Also lol @ Pippen Top 20. Come on. Lucky to crack the Top 30.
 

jod23

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1 Jordan
2 Bron
3 Kareem
4 Magic
5 Shaq
6 Bird
7 Wilt
8 Dream
9 Russell
10 Duncan
11 Oscar
12 West
13 K Malone
14 Durant
15 Kobe
16 Curry
17 M Malone
18 Erving
19 Stockton
20 Barkley

After actually running it, it looks like Kobe just makes the Top 15.

Curry probably gets past Kobe by the end of his career.

Also lol @ Pippen Top 20. Come on. Lucky to crack the Top 30.
I'd have it...

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Russell
8. Olajuwon
9. Shaq
10. Duncan
11. Oscar
12. Kobe
13. West
14. Durant
15. M.Malone
16. K.Malone
17. Baylor
18. Dr.J
19. Barkley
20. Curry

Durant will keep moving up and Steph will too by the time he is done. Couple of question, why Durant over Kobe? And why Stockton in the top 20 at all? I like Stockton and his assists and steals totals are impressive but longevity helps him get those as he played 20 season. But for me I have probably 30-40 and behind Isiah Thomas in my PG rankings.

Zeke is underrated. Won back to back championships in the middle of Magic, Bird and Jordan as the leader and star of that Pistons teams. He's a winner and Stockton wasnt. Having said that, Stockton like many others probably would have won a championship if it wasnt for MJ. But I still have Isiah over Stockton.

20-30 bracket would have Pippen, yeah I had him too high in retrospect.
 
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fidstar

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Durant will keep moving up and Steph will crack the top 20 too by the time he is done. Couple of question, why Durant over Kobe? And why Stockton in the top 20 at all? I like Stockton and his assists and steals totals are impressive but longevity helps him get those as he played 20 season. But for me I have probably 30-40 and behind Isiah Thomas in my PG rankings.

Zeke is underrated. Won back to back championships in the middle of Magic, Bird and Jordan as the leader and star of that Pistons teams. He's a winner and Stockton wasnt. Having said that, Stockton like many others probably would have won a championship if it wasnt for MJ. But I still have Isiah over Stockton.

20-30 bracket would have Pippen, yeah I had him too high in retrospect.
I think Durant is a better player. Maybe the most versatile scorer of all time. He doesn't really have a weakness. I've always thought Kobe was a little overrated. Great player no doubt, but not efficient and also not clutch (despite the hype). He also gave up on a great Championship run with his issues with Shaq.

Him winning the 2 without Shaq are easily his 2 biggest accomplishments. But I think he got lucky as he won them both before LeBron was ready. He was good, but not great, in those two Championship runs.

There's obviously not a huge difference between 14th and 15th on the list. What it comes down to is "Who would I rather have on my team?"

Stockton gets there on longevity. He was effectively a great player for 15 years. Even at 39 he was posting 14/8 on 52% shooting. Meanwhile IT only played 13 seasons and was retired by 32. Yes, he won two Championships, but he fell into a time where Magic and Bird were on the way down and MJ wasn't ready yet. There's a strong argument that IT wasn't even there best player during their Championship era. Stockton was an All-NBA player 11 times, while IT was 5 times. Stockton was a far more efficient offensive player.
 

Dwhale44

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I'd have it...

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Russell
8. Olajuwon
9. Shaq
10. Duncan
11. Oscar
12. Kobe
13. West
14. Durant
15. M.Malone
16. K.Malone
17. Baylor
18. Dr.J
19. Barkley
20. Durant

Durant will keep moving up and Steph will crack the top 20 too by the time he is done. Couple of question, why Durant over Kobe? And why Stockton in the top 20 at all? I like Stockton and his assists and steals totals are impressive but longevity helps him get those as he played 20 season. But for me I have probably 30-40 and behind Isiah Thomas in my PG rankings.

Zeke is underrated. Won back to back championships in the middle of Magic, Bird and Jordan as the leader and star of that Pistons teams. He's a winner and Stockton wasnt. Having said that, Stockton like many others probably would have won a championship if it wasnt for MJ. But I still have Isiah over Stockton.

20-30 bracket would have Pippen, yeah I had him too high in retrospect.
you got KD twice
 

jod23

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I think Durant is a better player. Maybe the most versatile scorer of all time. He doesn't really have a weakness. I've always thought Kobe was a little overrated. Great player no doubt, but not efficient and also not clutch (despite the hype). He also gave up on a great Championship run with his issues with Shaq.

Him winning the 2 without Shaq are easily his 2 biggest accomplishments. But I think he got lucky as he won them both before LeBron was ready. He was good, but not great, in those two Championship runs.

There's obviously not a huge difference between 14th and 15th on the list. What it comes down to is "Who would I rather have on my team?"

Stockton gets there on longevity. He was effectively a great player for 15 years. Even at 39 he was posting 14/8 on 52% shooting. Meanwhile IT only played 13 seasons and was retired by 32. Yes, he won two Championships, but he fell into a time where Magic and Bird were on the way down and MJ wasn't ready yet. There's a strong argument that IT wasn't even there best player during their Championship era. Stockton was an All-NBA player 11 times, while IT was 5 times. Stockton was a far more efficient offensive player.
Still yet to see Durant really lead his own team to a chip though like Kobe did. Durant certainly has the capability to do it and if he does he can keep moving up the rankings. You're right with Kobe and efficiency but it's his elite mentality that lifts him up a little for me.

I dont buy the Magic and Bird on the way down though, they hadnt even been in the league 10 years, they were in their prime. We're not talking season 15-16 for those guys. Magic made the NBA Finals against the Bulls after Detroits championships. Oh and IT was without question the Pistons best player, that's crazy.

But I get arguments both way, I feel that Stockton is never a guy who is gonna win you a championship. He can never be your best player or you're not winning anything. IT though got two chips being the best player on his team. That counts for me.
 

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fidstar

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In their two Championship years IT didn't make one All-NBA team. Dumars made one. And they split the two Finals MVPs.

Dumars was All-NBA 1st team defense as well, both seasons, while IT didn't feature once.

To say that IT was "without question the Pistons best player" in their two Championship seasons is wrong.
 

fidstar

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Celtics were done by the time Detroit were winning Championships.

They won an average of 46 games those two years.

Lakers were still good though.
 

jod23

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In their two Championship years IT didn't make one All-NBA team. Dumars made one. And they split the two Finals MVPs.

Dumars was All-NBA 1st team defense as well, both seasons, while IT didn't feature once.

To say that IT was "without question the Pistons best player" in their two Championship seasons is wrong.
Whilst I agree Dumars was an excellent player and they formed a formidable backcourt Zeke was their clear leader, he led them in PPG and APG. Everything went through him. They did split the two Finals MVP's which was fitting. This isnt about Dumars though, it's Stockton v Thomas.

If we're talking absolute peak ability as a basketball player, I think Isiah Thomas was far more talented than Stockton. Stockton was steady as a rock though and his longevity was amazing, but I wouldnt have him anywhere near any top 20 players of all time list. He'd be top 50 somewhere.... like 40-50 range for me.
 

fidstar

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Whilst I agree Dumars was an excellent player and they formed a formidable backcourt Zeke was their clear leader, he led them in PPG and APG. Everything went through him. They did split the two Finals MVP's which was fitting. This isnt about Dumars though, it's Stockton v Thomas.

If we're talking absolute peak ability as a basketball player, I think Isiah Thomas was far more talented than Stockton. Stockton was steady as a rock though and his longevity was amazing, but I wouldnt have him anywhere near any top 20 players of all time list. He'd be top 50 somewhere.... like 40-50 range for me.
My reply was to your comment about IT being clearly the best player for Detroit. They both averaged about 17 or 18 points per game, so nothing in it. Fun fact - Dantley actually led the team in scoring in 89 (though only played 42 games). Dumars was also clearly a better defensive player.

I've already stated that Stockton got there on longevity. ITs peak wasn't that much better than Stockton's to over ride that. IT finished Top 5 in the MVP once (5th in 84), so lets stop pretending he was a superstar consistently at the Top of the league.
 

QuietB

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In their two Championship years IT didn't make one All-NBA team. Dumars made one. And they split the two Finals MVPs.

Dumars was All-NBA 1st team defense as well, both seasons, while IT didn't feature once.

To say that IT was "without question the Pistons best player" in their two Championship seasons is wrong.
That Pistons team is one of the best balanced and most even teams ever though. IT was their best player.
 

Scotland

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Steph is a funny one. He's into his 12th season and has already missed the playoffs 4 times (last year he barely played). Warriors are 11-9 currently but no guarantee of making the playoffs this year. Phenomenal shooter and very good point guard but he's not the sort of guy you can just transplant onto any old team and make them a contender. I think he could've been FMVP in 2015 or 2018 but his record still shows he has 3 titles and no FMVPs. Even though he was the best player on the 2015 Warriors.

If you swapped Curry and Lillard from 2014 onward you could easily mount a case that the Warriors still win 3 titles but I doubt anyone thinks Curry would turn the Blazers into anything more than a 40-50 win team, and Dame isn't in any conversation for the top 50 of all time.
 

jod23

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Steph is a funny one. He's into his 12th season and has already missed the playoffs 4 times (last year he barely played). Warriors are 11-9 currently but no guarantee of making the playoffs this year. Phenomenal shooter and very good point guard but he's not the sort of guy you can just transplant onto any old team and make them a contender. I think he could've been FMVP in 2015 or 2018 but his record still shows he has 3 titles and no FMVPs. Even though he was the best player on the 2015 Warriors.

If you swapped Curry and Lillard from 2014 onward you could easily mount a case that the Warriors still win 3 titles but I doubt anyone thinks Curry would turn the Blazers into anything more than a 40-50 win team, and Dame isn't in any conversation for the top 50 of all time.
But I mean he is still the greatest shooter of all time, a two time MVP and has won three championships. It's a great resume.
 

Scotland

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But I mean he is still the greatest shooter of all time, a two time MVP and has won three championships. It's a great resume.
Absolutely. Before Curry came along no one had made 300 3 pointers in a season. Curry hit 400. At the highest percentage of any 3 point leader. Nuts.
 

fidstar

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Steph is a funny one. He's into his 12th season and has already missed the playoffs 4 times (last year he barely played). Warriors are 11-9 currently but no guarantee of making the playoffs this year. Phenomenal shooter and very good point guard but he's not the sort of guy you can just transplant onto any old team and make them a contender. I think he could've been FMVP in 2015 or 2018 but his record still shows he has 3 titles and no FMVPs. Even though he was the best player on the 2015 Warriors.

If you swapped Curry and Lillard from 2014 onward you could easily mount a case that the Warriors still win 3 titles but I doubt anyone thinks Curry would turn the Blazers into anything more than a 40-50 win team, and Dame isn't in any conversation for the top 50 of all time.
Lillard is a poor mans Curry. Just a far less efficient Curry.

It's like saying Drexler is as good as Jordan.

You say he's missed the playoffs 4 times. Two times were in seasons he hardly played. The other two were his first two season. LeBron missed the playoffs in his first two seasons. He turned out okay.

Yes, we are 11-9. But last year we were 15-50 without him. Just a little better.

I mean Curry's Finals stats...

 

Scotland

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Lillard is a poor mans Curry. Just a far less efficient Curry.

It's like saying Drexler is as good as Jordan.

You say he's missed the playoffs 4 times. Two times were in seasons he hardly played. The other two were his first two season. LeBron missed the playoffs in his first two seasons. He turned out okay.

Yes, we are 11-9. But last year we were 15-50 without him. Just a little better.

I mean Curry's Finals stats...

Far less efficient? Dame doesn't have Steph's CV obviously but put up 30 points and 8 assists a game last year shooting 40% from 3. He's not a Harden or Westbrook who just keeps shooting until he scores. Lillard played 3 seasons with Aldridge and hasn't had an all star teammate for the last 5 years. Not many guys shoot 25+ at high efficiency without help. Dame/Klay/KD would be a title favourite. Anyway.

I hope GS do well this year, but we're only 20 games in. Steph/Dray/Wiggins/Oubre/Wiseman looks like a mid range team at best in the WC, and there's not a lot of depth. I'm no Steph or GS hater, I love watching him play. GS last year were also without Oubre and Wiseman and it was a disjointed season all round. Glenn Robinson, Willie Cauley-Stein and D-Lo were all top 5 for starts last year. I think Wiggins is looking better, not sold on Oubre at all. Wiseman great but young.

The knocks on Steph are fair though in the context of the top 5, 10, 20 etc players ever. Everyone knows he can play and most people think he's the GOAT shooter. Steph was the best player on the record breaking 73-9 win team that didn't win the finals. Like MJ's 6/6 vs LeBron's 4/9 or whatever he's up to, that will stick. Those Kobe stats are interesting. Kobe has 2 FMVPs, Steph has 0. In the 2016 finals the series winning shot was made by the opposing point guard who averaged 27 for the series. Kobe has 9 all defensive first team selections, Steph has 0. GS system under Steve Kerr is fantastic, but Klay Thompson typically defends the most dangerous opposition guard. It's a two way game and Steph is not a great defender. He's active for a small guard, but he's not Chris Paul.

I reckon he'll end up in the 15-25 range.
 

fidstar

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No one is saying Steph is completing for GOAT. You have him in the 15-25 range, which is where both Jod and I had him.

Steph isn't a great defender. He's average, and that is what holds him back on this list. If we were looking at just offense, then he's probably Top 10.

And yes, Lillard is a less efficient Steph. No where did I say that Lillard wasn't efficient. He just is compared to Steph who is one of the most efficient scorers in NBA history:
  • You mentioned that Lillard shot 40.1% from 3 last year, which was his career high. That would have been a career low for Steph (for any season he played more than 5 games).
  • Lillards best eFG% season is 56.3%. Steph has had 8 seasons better than that.
Best comparison between Steph and Lillard was the 2019 WCF when Durant was injured.

Steph 37/7/8 on 66.3 TS%
Lillard 22/5/8 on 54.6 TS%

Warriors swept them.

And obviously Dame/Klay/Durant would be Championship favorites, but you could replace Steph with any All-Star point guard and said that. That team was a lot better than the rest of the league, so even a drop off at point wouldn't have changed that.
 

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