Play Nice Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

Remove this Banner Ad

jod23 said:
I disagree. There is an answer. Jordan set the bar. LeBron hasnt reached it.

He gave it a good crack though as you said. No shame in being the second best to ever do it.
Click to expand...
Someone didn’t pass the “know what objective means” test 😂 😂 😂

I knew there’d be someone
 
Bulls without Jordan were still a playoff team.

Cavs without Lebron were lottery favorites.

I'd still rank Jordan as being better, but the gap isn't as wide as the MJ jockswingers would like to believe.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

jod23 said:
Other stars? Lebron is the one that creates super teams.
Click to expand...
I never said he didn't. Also, it depends on what you mean by super teams. Super teams through original player recruitment had been going on for years. The 2007-08 Celtics I'd argue were the first team to really take advantage of the modern free-agent based super teams. LeBron just took it to another level. That is not my point though.

My point was is that no one has ever been better than LeBron when it comes to elevating teammates (besides maybe Steph but he does this purely by existing). LeBron turns bench role players into very solid players. He gets the best out of shooters due to the insane attention that is required when he drives to the hoop, which allows him then find easy passes with his insane passing ability for shooters to hit. Jordan doesn't have that same ability.

However, where Jordan beats LeBron is that LeBron actually makes star NBA players worse. Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love & AD have all been worse with LeBron than without him. This is due to the fact that LeBron is simply so ball-dominant where he needs the ball in his hands at all times. Probably only Harden is comparable in this aspect. Because LeBron needs the ball so often, he takes away other stars best attributes which is why LeBron with shooters isn't much worse than LeBron with stars and in my opinion, why his finals record is lacklustre (2/4 with the Heat should've really been 3/4 and was a rebound away from being a 1/4 record) because he takes away from D-Wade and Boshs best attributes to fit his playstyle.

Look at KD for example. IMO, the best scorer ever and not a particularly good playmaker, yet he seamlessly fits into any team with any player because he is such a good shooter and off-ball mover. I didn't watch Jordan a lot but I've seen plenty of off-ball plays in his highlights and LeBrons biggest weakness is that he isn't a super effective off-ball player for how good he is, which holds him back.


Anyway, my logic for taking LeBron over MJ is that I'd say as a whole they're pretty much equal as players (have virtually the same career PER) but I give the nod to LeBron for how long he has been doing it for.

Both were the best player in the league for a long time (Jordan for the whole 90s & LEBron for almost the whole 2010s curry has been the best since 2018 IMO) so it is hard to compare eras as they simply never came up against each other so there is no genuine right or wrong answer IMO
 
The Celtics big 3 in 2008 was Pierce (31), Garnett (32) and Allen (33). Not quite the same as LeBron and Bosh at 27 and D-Wade at 29. Ditto the Warriors with Steph, KD, Klay, Draymond all in their prime. The Celtics were still a great team but it's not like the whole time those 3 guys were together they were the best team in the NBA. LeBron also lost to the Spurs, Pistons and Magic in the playoffs/finals in his first run with the Cavs anyway.

DFWGrapher said:
Bulls without Jordan were still a playoff team.

Cavs without Lebron were lottery favorites.
Click to expand...

I agree to a point. Before Jordan got to the Bulls they were a 27 win team no one cared about in Chicago let alone anywhere else. They made the playoffs every year with him, even when the owner and GM didn't want them to.

The Bulls won 55 games in 93/94 then 47 in 94/95. Jordan played the last 17 and they went 13-4, so 34-31 without him. That roster with Pippen, Longley, Kukoc, Kerr, BJ, Harper etc was pretty good. You have to give credit to Jerry Krause, most of those guys weren't there for the first threepeat. Remember Jordan didn't play GM the way LeBron does. Players didn't orchestrate moves the same way they do now in the 80s and 90s.

The Cavs were garbage when LeBron got there and have been garbage both times he left. Worth noting that their front office couldn't run a chook raffle. When LeBron made his "decision" Shaq and Ilgauskas left, then they traded Mo Williams. By the time LeBron came back they had Kyrie, Bennett, Wiggins as #1 picks and Thompson as #4. They traded for Bennett and Wiggins for Love and then got JR Smith etc. so the roster was solid.

The Cavs second decline started with Kyrie demanding out and the team ending up with very little in return. IT, D-Rose, D-Wade sounds good on paper... Cavs taking on Clarkson and Nance and Lakers giving up D-Lo to get rid of Mozgov makes more sense when you factor in LeBron going from Cleveland to LA. Predictably, the Cavs without LeBron and Kyrie and Love not trying are hopeless. The Heat were pretty comparable pre and post LeBron. They retained post prime D-Wade and Bosh got injured after a year. But they are a well run franchise people want to play for.

By comparison, if you look at the Bulls after 1998 rather than 1993 they didn't take long to turn to hot garbage either. No Jordan no Bulls, but also no Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman no Bulls.

DFWGrapher said:
I'd still rank Jordan as being better, but the gap isn't as wide as the MJ jockswingers would like to believe.
Click to expand...

Most people have LeBron #2. Hardly anyone left saying that Bird or Magic or Kareem are better, or pretending they watched Bill Russell or Jerry West. I think #2 all time given the company is pretty high praise. Anyone who doesn't think LeBron is #1 by now probably won't at any stage.
 
Scratchy05 said:
I never said he didn't. Also, it depends on what you mean by super teams. Super teams through original player recruitment had been going on for years. The 2007-08 Celtics I'd argue were the first team to really take advantage of the modern free-agent based super teams. LeBron just took it to another level. That is not my point though.

My point was is that no one has ever been better than LeBron when it comes to elevating teammates (besides maybe Steph but he does this purely by existing). LeBron turns bench role players into very solid players. He gets the best out of shooters due to the insane attention that is required when he drives to the hoop, which allows him then find easy passes with his insane passing ability for shooters to hit. Jordan doesn't have that same ability.

However, where Jordan beats LeBron is that LeBron actually makes star NBA players worse. Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love & AD have all been worse with LeBron than without him. This is due to the fact that LeBron is simply so ball-dominant where he needs the ball in his hands at all times. Probably only Harden is comparable in this aspect. Because LeBron needs the ball so often, he takes away other stars best attributes which is why LeBron with shooters isn't much worse than LeBron with stars and in my opinion, why his finals record is lacklustre (2/4 with the Heat should've really been 3/4 and was a rebound away from being a 1/4 record) because he takes away from D-Wade and Boshs best attributes to fit his playstyle.

Look at KD for example. IMO, the best scorer ever and not a particularly good playmaker, yet he seamlessly fits into any team with any player because he is such a good shooter and off-ball mover. I didn't watch Jordan a lot but I've seen plenty of off-ball plays in his highlights and LeBrons biggest weakness is that he isn't a super effective off-ball player for how good he is, which holds him back.


Anyway, my logic for taking LeBron over MJ is that I'd say as a whole they're pretty much equal as players (have virtually the same career PER) but I give the nod to LeBron for how long he has been doing it for.

Both were the best player in the league for a long time (Jordan for the whole 90s & LEBron for almost the whole 2010s curry has been the best since 2018 IMO) so it is hard to compare eras as they simply never came up against each other so there is no genuine right or wrong answer IMO
Click to expand...
I was reading you post and was going to reply with yeah but look how LeBron makes star teammates worse. But then you covered that too.

It's always a conversation that nobody ever has. Kevin Love used to be a beast but when he played with LeBron, you could have gotten the same contribution from any half decent shooting big man. LeBron can make role players better for sure, but he makes star players worse.

It's tough to compare Jordan in this regard as he isnt someone who needs the ball in his hands at all times, like you also said. Jordan can be highly effective off ball. LeBron, not so much. Jordan always played with a PG whereas LeBron was always the PG.

They dont have the same PER. Jordan's is clearly better and LeBron's is continually dropping. Jordan is 1st all time for PER at 27.9. LeBron's sits at 27.4 but his last three years have been 25.6, 25.5 and 24.2 to his career PER continues to drop. He will never catch Jordan here and the gap will only widen.

It's weird to give the nod to LeBron just for longevity when he falls short of Jordan is almost every other aspect. But fair enough, you have your opinion.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Sidenote on MJ. I think Jordan was absolutely robbed for MVP's throughout his career.

He finished with 5 MVP's but IMO he should really have 8 or 9 MVP's. Which would be insane.

But he definitely should have won MVP in 86/87, 88/89 and 89/90. He should also have won MVP in 92/93. That takes his number to 9 MVP's.

In 92/93 Barkley was great, his numbers were huge - 25.6ppg, 12.2rpg, 5.1apg, 1.6spg on 52% shooting. But Barkley was very much an offensive player, very average on defense, never making an All Defensive team in his career. Contrast that with MJ and his stats were of course monstrous as usual - 32.6ppg, 6.7rpg, 5.5apg, 2.8spg on 49.5% shooting. Jordan was All D 1st team, led the league in scoring and led the league in steals. Jordan should have been MVP that year but I guess voter fatigue?

In 86/87 Magic won MVP with - 23.9ppg, 12.2apg, 6.3rpg, 1.7spg on 52% shooting. Jordan however averaged 37.1ppg, 5.2rpg, 4.6apg, 2.9spg, 1.5bpg on 48.2% shooting. The highest single season scoring average or all time from any player not named Wilt Chamberlain. Jordan was 2nd in the league in steals per game, 1st in the league in block per game amongst guards. 1st in PER, 1st in Plus Minus, 1st in Win Shares. This should have been Jordan's first MVP.

In 88/89 Magic won again with - 22.5ppg, 12.8apg, 7.9rpg, 1.8spg on 51% shooting. Monster numbers. But Jordan was being ridiculous again averaging 32.5ppg, 8.0rpg, 8.0apg, 2.9spg on 53.8% shooting. Jordan though again does it on both ends making All D 1st team, Magic didnt make All D, Jordan was 1st in Win Shares, 1st in PER and 1st in Plus Minus. Robbed again.

In 89/90 Magic again won MVP with - 22.3ppg, 11.5apg, 6.6rpg, 1.7spg on 48% shooting. Jordan though, monster numbers again with 33.6ppg, 6.9rpg, 6.3apg, 2.8spg on 52.6% shooting. Jordan again All D 1st team, Magic didnt make an All D team. Jordan led the league in scoring and steals. 1st in PER, 1st in Win Shares, 1st in Plus Minus. He was robbed again haha.

Jordan legitimately should have 9 MVP's.
 
The Bulls won 40 games in 87, 47 games in 89. He doesn't deserve the MVP in those years.

At least you have a case of 90 and 93. But Magic and Barkley were great those years and comfortably had the Bulls covered in wins.
 
fidstar said:
The Bulls won 40 games in 87, 47 games in 89. He doesn't deserve the MVP in those years.

At least you have a case of 90 and 93. But Magic and Barkley were great those years and comfortably had the Bulls covered in wins.
Click to expand...
90 and 93 he was robbed. Bulls won 55 games in 90 and finished 3rd in the East. He should have been MVP that year and in 93 the Bulls won 57 games and were the two seed in the East. The Suns win 5 more games, I love Barkley but even he has said he wasnt a great defender. Jordan on both ends, he should be MVP that year too.

Maybe the Bulls didnt win enough games in 87 and 89 but he won it in 88 with the Bulls winning 50 games. Not a huge difference between 47 wins and 50. Besides it's the most valuable player award, not the best player on the best team award.

He led the league in PER, Win Shares, Plus Minus in all those years including All NBA 1st Team, All Defence 1st team, leading the league in scoring and steals. I mean he was robbed on so many occasions.

He should definitely have more than 5.
 
jod23 said:
90 and 93 he was robbed. Bulls won 55 games in 90 and finished 3rd in the East. He should have been MVP that year and in 93 the Bulls won 57 games and were the two seed in the East. The Suns win 5 more games, I love Barkley but even he has said he wasnt a great defender. Jordan on both ends, he should be MVP that year too.

Maybe the Bulls didnt win enough games in 87 and 89 but he won it in 88 with the Bulls winning 50 games. Not a huge difference between 47 wins and 50. Besides it's the most valuable player award, not the best player on the best team award.

He led the league in PER, Win Shares, Plus Minus in all those years including All NBA 1st Team, All Defence 1st team, leading the league in scoring and steals. I mean he was robbed on so many occasions.

He should definitely have more than 5.
Click to expand...

Lakers won 63. 8 games is a lot more wins.

And 5 games is as well.

If you don't win 50 games you aren't getting a look at the MVP. The one year they won 50 games. He won it.

You state "led the league in PER, Win Shares, Plus Minus in all those years". So, I assume you don't think he should have won in 1998, because he finished 4th, 2nd and 3rd respectively in those stats? Looks like Malone should have won it, being that he finished higher in all three?
 
Jordan was the best player in the NBA for what, 10-12 seasons?

Doesn't mean he deserves 12 MVPs. Where does D-Rose rank in all players 2010-2020? Top 20? 50? Doesn't diminish his 2011 MVP. Both Jordan and LeBron could've won more MVPs.

I have no issue with Barkley and Malone winning MVP awards for their respective seasons. Winning the MVP in every Bulls title year would've been cool, but you can't have everything.
 
jod23 said:
90 and 93 he was robbed. Bulls won 55 games in 90 and finished 3rd in the East. He should have been MVP that year and in 93 the Bulls won 57 games and were the two seed in the East. The Suns win 5 more games, I love Barkley but even he has said he wasnt a great defender. Jordan on both ends, he should be MVP that year too.

Maybe the Bulls didnt win enough games in 87 and 89 but he won it in 88 with the Bulls winning 50 games. Not a huge difference between 47 wins and 50. Besides it's the most valuable player award, not the best player on the best team award.

He led the league in PER, Win Shares, Plus Minus in all those years including All NBA 1st Team, All Defence 1st team, leading the league in scoring and steals. I mean he was robbed on so many occasions.

He should definitely have more than 5.
Click to expand...
Problem is the MVP has never been an award that just goes to the best player.

Seeding, games played, stats, voters fatigue all come in to it. Also you may care about the defensive end (as do i) but most people pay lip service to it. You can not start dissecting all the years certain players 'should have won' because you can most certainly do the same for Lebron and many other players.

P.s you are being extremely harsh on the Barkley MVP
 
fidstar said:
Lakers won 63. 8 games is a lot more wins.

And 5 games is as well.

If you don't win 50 games you aren't getting a look at the MVP. The one year they won 50 games. He won it.

You state "led the league in PER, Win Shares, Plus Minus in all those years". So, I assume you don't think he should have won in 1998, because he finished 4th, 2nd and 3rd respectively in those stats? Looks like Malone should have won it, being that he finished higher in all three?
Click to expand...
Yeah I think Malone could have won in 98. But he should have won in other years.

Do you think he should have more than 5 MVP's?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Elmer_Judd
  • Locked
NBA Week 6 Thread - I'd rather anything than watch Jordan Poole
7 8 9 10 11
Replies
262
Views
5K
peternorth
P
Tandy
The Bronny James debate
Replies
1
Views
102
Braklet
Braklet
Elmer_Judd
  • Locked
NBA Week 3 Thread
7 8 9 10 11
Replies
266
Views
8K
peternorth
P
Elmer_Judd
The Bigfooty NBA Week 18 Thread - Where LeBron attends the Superbowl
5 6 7 8 9
Replies
219
Views
8K
jod23
jod23
P
  • Poll
Live Event 2022-23 NBA FINALS - Denver Nuggets * vs Miami Heat (* denotes home court advantage)
26 27 28 29 30
Replies
728
Views
13K
Judd2Sewell
Judd2Sewell
D
  • Locked
NBA Week 4 Thread where Clippers are 0-4 under Hardens system
12 13 14 15 16
Replies
392
Views
7K
peternorth
P
deeman87
Memorial Delonte West-Gloria James South Beach Cup 2023/2024 (Year 14)
4 5 6 7 8
Replies
186
Views
8K
deeman87
deeman87

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top