Play Nice Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

Remove this Banner Ad

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
68,090
22,024
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
Let me know what I made up.

67 wins finished off the best 3 year regular season run in NBA history fwiw.
That they would have won 75 etc...it's just pure speculation. It's also impossible to predict these things. Transporting the 17 Warriors back to the mid 90's is anyones guess to what would happen. Basketball was completely different. You can only judge teams on their own time and against their peers. The KD Warriors won 67 games which is great. But it's not 72 and a chip.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
68,090
22,024
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
Also from Nov 1990 to June 1998 when Jordan basically ruled the basketball world Michael Jordan never lost three games in a row. That's a streak of 632 games without losing three on the bounce.

Then take the KD Warriors and over a three year span they were together they never went even one season without losing three in a row. Pretty nuts. They lost three in a row in 16/17, three in a row again in 17/18 and lost four in a row in 18/19.

Jordan never lost three in a row in 8 years. That's crazy.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
60,054
65,786
AFL Club
West Coast
The 'big 4' all missed games in the 2016/17 - 2018/19 run. Getting the 73 wins in 2015/16 was a massive achievement but once they did that but lost the finals their priorities shifted.

2015/16 - 2018/19 games per player per season

Steph 79-79-51-69
Klay 80-78-73-78
Dray 81-76-70-66
KD 0-62-68-78

Winning 58 games with Steph missing 31, KD missing 14, Dray missing 12 and Klay missing 9 is a bit silly really.
 

fidstar

Brownlow Medallist
May 9, 2013
14,289
9,816
AFL Club
West Coast
That they would have won 75 etc...it's just pure speculation. It's also impossible to predict these things. Transporting the 17 Warriors back to the mid 90's is anyones guess to what would happen. Basketball was completely different. You can only judge teams on their own time and against their peers. The KD Warriors won 67 games which is great. But it's not 72 and a chip.
You contradict yourself by saying 73 wins means nothing, but when they won 67 the following season (even though they were clearly a better team) it is now important.

Warriors slept walk to 67 wins that year, even with their best player missing 20 games (how many games do the Bulls win in 96 if MJ misses 20 games?)

Warriors then put together the greatest playoff run of all time (16-1).
 
Last edited:

fidstar

Brownlow Medallist
May 9, 2013
14,289
9,816
AFL Club
West Coast
Also from Nov 1990 to June 1998 when Jordan basically ruled the basketball world Michael Jordan never lost three games in a row. That's a streak of 632 games without losing three on the bounce.

Then take the KD Warriors and over a three year span they were together they never went even one season without losing three in a row. Pretty nuts. They lost three in a row in 16/17, three in a row again in 17/18 and lost four in a row in 18/19.

Jordan never lost three in a row in 8 years. That's crazy.
Selective much? Picking an individual player and comparing it to a team that could be paying without their star.

Curry had one 3 game losing streak from 05 to 09.
Jordan didn't lose 3 games in a row.

Not sure there's much difference there that's worth bragging about.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
68,090
22,024
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
You contradict yourself by saying 73 wins means nothing, but when they won 67 the following season (even though they were clearly a better team) it is now important.

Warriors slept walk to 67 wins that year, even with their best player missing 20 games (how many games do the Bulls win in 96 if MJ misses 20 games?)

Warriors then put together the greatest playoff run of all time (16-1).
The 67 wins means more than the 73 because they won the championship. You can say they slept walk through that season which is fine. I'm not disputing that that Warriors team was completely ridiculous. It would be right up there with one of the greatest teams of all time. But if we are talking just the KD Warriors then they won 67, 58 and 57 games. They won two out of three championships.

I think you over blow the amount of talent on the team compared to what they actually achieved.

The Bulls had less talent but won 72, 69 and 62 and won three straight chips.

Yes I'm aware some injuries happened, particularly late in season three for the Warriors and with a fit Klay and KD they definitely win three in a row IMO. But even still that would be 182 wins over the three season compared to the Bulls 203 wins.

Anyways, my argument is that you cant compare team from different eras as it's different basketball, different rules, different time. The 8 in a row Celtics would get slapped by NBL teams never mind NBA teams because of how much the game has changed. Same from the 90's to now, the game is so different now to what it was in Jordan's time that it's a pointless exercise to try to say the Warriors would beat the Bulls or vice versa.

The only thing you can do is rate the teams for what they did in their time, against their peers. The KD Warriors won less games and less Championship that the second iteration of the Bulls. Hell even the first version of the Bulls got 185 wins, more than the Warriors and three titles over two.

The Warriors were very unfortunate in their dynasty. They really should have won 5 in a row but in the end they just didnt and it is what it is. But they are right there in conversations of greatest teams of all time. 60's Celtics, 80's Celtics, 80's Lakers, 00's Lakers, 90's Bulls and 10's Warriors.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
68,090
22,024
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
Selective much? Picking an individual player and comparing it to a team that could be paying without their star.

Curry had one 3 game losing streak from 05 to 09.
Jordan didn't lose 3 games in a row.

Not sure there's much difference there that's worth bragging about.
How is their not much difference? Curry had a 3 game losing streak in the time you said, not to mention he was playing what high school and college ball from 05 to 09. Means not a lot, he didnt even play at a top college.

Meanwhile Jordan playing at the absolute top level didnt lose three games in a row for 8 years! That's insane. Why cant you just be like, fu** yeah that impressive, which it clearly is.
 

BigRang

Team Captain
Mar 11, 2011
422
482
South of the Black Stump
AFL Club
Fremantle
LeBron is a sooky whingey pants that calls up other stars to come and join him so they can beat the other stars that also join forces to also win. That’s the difference. MJ didn’t call up Larry Bird and Magic and be all like ‘Oh hey guys you wanna team up and beat everyone else to win a championship?’
Nah mate. He was all like ‘fu** these m^£#={|%creed I’m the greatest and I’m gonna beat their arses into a pulp with Scottie Pippen (who was also actually very bloody good) and John Paxton and Horace Grant and Luc Longley and Steve Kerr as backup. That’s the difference between the ‘greats’ now and back then.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 

fidstar

Brownlow Medallist
May 9, 2013
14,289
9,816
AFL Club
West Coast
How is their not much difference? Curry had a 3 game losing streak in the time you said, not to mention he was playing what high school and college ball from 05 to 09. Means not a lot, he didnt even play at a top college.

Meanwhile Jordan playing at the absolute top level didnt lose three games in a row for 8 years! That's insane. Why cant you just be like, fu** yeah that impressive, which it clearly is.
I obviously meant 15 to 19.

Well not losing for 8 years becomes a lot easier when you don't play for 2 of the years.

MJ obviously has had an impressive career (he's the GOAT). But it's not because he had one less 3 games losing steak compared to Steph.
 

fidstar

Brownlow Medallist
May 9, 2013
14,289
9,816
AFL Club
West Coast
The 67 wins means more than the 73 because they won the championship. You can say they slept walk through that season which is fine. I'm not disputing that that Warriors team was completely ridiculous. It would be right up there with one of the greatest teams of all time. But if we are talking just the KD Warriors then they won 67, 58 and 57 games. They won two out of three championships.

I think you over blow the amount of talent on the team compared to what they actually achieved.

The Bulls had less talent but won 72, 69 and 62 and won three straight chips.

Yes I'm aware some injuries happened, particularly late in season three for the Warriors and with a fit Klay and KD they definitely win three in a row IMO. But even still that would be 182 wins over the three season compared to the Bulls 203 wins.

Anyways, my argument is that you cant compare team from different eras as it's different basketball, different rules, different time. The 8 in a row Celtics would get slapped by NBL teams never mind NBA teams because of how much the game has changed. Same from the 90's to now, the game is so different now to what it was in Jordan's time that it's a pointless exercise to try to say the Warriors would beat the Bulls or vice versa.

The only thing you can do is rate the teams for what they did in their time, against their peers. The KD Warriors won less games and less Championship that the second iteration of the Bulls. Hell even the first version of the Bulls got 185 wins, more than the Warriors and three titles over two.

The Warriors were very unfortunate in their dynasty. They really should have won 5 in a row but in the end they just didnt and it is what it is. But they are right there in conversations of greatest teams of all time. 60's Celtics, 80's Celtics, 80's Lakers, 00's Lakers, 90's Bulls and 10's Warriors.
You think I over blow the amount of talent on the team compared to what they achieved, yet you think they would have won 3 out of 3 championships if not for injury in the last year? I'm not sure what you thought they should have achieved? I mean they probably win the third one even with KD's injury if everyone else stays healthy. I don't know any team in NBA history that is winning a championship without their best player.

Steph missed 30 games and KD 14 games in the 58 win season. They win mid 60s even if just Steph plays 75 games (they won over 80% of the games Steph played that year).

And year 5, they just didn't care. They knew they were better than the rest.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
68,090
22,024
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
I obviously meant 15 to 19.

Well not losing for 8 years becomes a lot easier when you don't play for 2 of the years.

MJ obviously has had an impressive career (he's the GOAT). But it's not because he had one less 3 games losing steak compared to Steph.
No it's not because of that, I just thought it was really interesting NBA fact so I brought it up.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
68,090
22,024
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
You think I over blow the amount of talent on the team compared to what they achieved, yet you think they would have won 3 out of 3 championships if not for injury in the last year? I'm not sure what you thought they should have achieved? I mean they probably win the third one even with KD's injury if everyone else stays healthy. I don't know any team in NBA history that is winning a championship without their best player.

Steph missed 30 games and KD 14 games in the 58 win season. They win mid 60s even if just Steph plays 75 games (they won over 80% of the games Steph played that year).

And year 5, they just didn't care. They knew they were better than the rest.
I guess my point is for whatever reason, be it injuries, complacency, bad luck, the Warriors underachieved in that era of dominance.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

fidstar

Brownlow Medallist
May 9, 2013
14,289
9,816
AFL Club
West Coast
I guess my point is for whatever reason, be it injuries, complacency, bad luck, the Warriors underachieved in that era of dominance.
So Bulls underachieved from 88 to 89? Only won 6 out of the 12 Championships when they had the GOAT playing at peak level. I know, I know, they didn't because whatever reason, be it injuries, complacency, bad luck...

Warriors made 5 straight Finals, won 3 Championships, came as close as you can to winning another one (losing in Game 7 by a couple of points), and lost the other one due to injury.

They also have the best playoff run in NBA history. They have the best regular season record over a 1, 3, 4 and 5 year period. They missed the 2 year one by 1 game.

The Warriors run is the greatest 5 year run in the last 50 years of NBA history.

Your expectations are too high.
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
68,090
22,024
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
So Bulls underachieved from 88 to 89? Only won 6 out of the 12 Championships when they had the GOAT playing at peak level. I know, I know, they didn't because whatever reason, be it injuries, complacency, bad luck...

Warriors made 5 straight Finals, won 3 Championships, came as close as you can to winning another one (losing in Game 7 by a couple of points), and lost the other one due to injury.

They also have the best playoff run in NBA history. They have the best regular season record over a 1, 3, 4 and 5 year period. They missed the 2 year one by 1 game.

The Warriors run is the greatest 5 year run in the last 50 years of NBA history.

Your expectations are too high.
I mean I'm not disputing any of that. I dont even get what we're arguing about?

The Warriors were amazing. One of the greatest teams of all time. Everybody knows that.
 

fidstar

Brownlow Medallist
May 9, 2013
14,289
9,816
AFL Club
West Coast
I mean I'm not disputing any of that. I dont even get what we're arguing about?

The Warriors were amazing. One of the greatest teams of all time. Everybody knows that.
You said they underachieved. They didn't.

Interestingly you argued against yourself. We were talking about who was better against their relative opponents. Bulls or Warriors. You said the Warriors underachieved, despite all that stuff I wrote in my last post. They must have been significantly better than the opponents if that was underachieving!
 

jod23

TheBrownDog
Apr 2, 2000
68,090
22,024
Perth, Australia
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Liverpool, Chicago Bulls.
You said they underachieved. They didn't.

Interestingly you argued against yourself. We were talking about who was better against their relative opponents. Bulls or Warriors. You said the Warriors underachieved, despite all that stuff I wrote in my last post. They must have been significantly better than the opponents if that was underachieving!
Oh then yeah the Bulls were vetter against their relative opponents for sure. The warriors were great but the Bulls dominated in a way the Warriors didnt.
 

QuietB

Brownlow Medallist
May 13, 2008
29,372
41,319
Melbourne
AFL Club
Hawthorn
All if's and but's though and yeah it would put a mark on his resume. He'd still be great but if they'd come back in 99 and lost to the Spurs then yeah that hurts his legacy.

The facts remain that when Michael Jordan and the Bulls were champions nobody ever knocked them off. He had to retire twice to let someone else win.
Quit twice
 

Freomaniac

Brownlow Medallist
May 3, 2007
25,405
13,807
Parts Unknown
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Man City, Valencia, Lazio, Panthers
Always said Pippen made MJ into who he is, and this confirms it strongly, even more so.

Batsman to his robin, MJ would be a different player that’s for sure.

Le Bron having back up isn’t as bad and damaging as people think.

Look at the duos:
Kobe with Shaq
Magic with Kareem.
Bird with the Celtics team.
Voids the argument that Lebron always gets help.
He has taken far less talented teams to the finals , ie the 2007 Cleveland Cavs- ilgauskas, Gooden, Pavlovic, Hughes. Awful.
interesting
 

Ambrosia

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 11, 2010
14,056
8,844
AFL Club
Essendon
They’re very very difficult to split and realistically what we should be comparing is who was better compared to their peers when they played not trying to directly comparing the two.

There’s also a discussion to be had about what is more valuable Jordan’s plug and play iso scoring or Lebron’s heliocentric ball dominant style that elevates fringe players but makes teammates that can’t shoot less valuable eg Wade.
 

Scotland

TheBrownDog
May 5, 2006
60,054
65,786
AFL Club
West Coast
Apparently he gets a pass because he only just returned... Which is another thing he gets a pass on.
Jordan did not play at all in 1993/94 then came back for the last 17 games of 1994/95 plus two playoff series. I find it a weird thing for people to focus on.

He was clearly not as sharp or match fit and still averaged 26.9 points, 6.9 rebounds and 5.3 assists in the 17 regular season games and 31.5 / 6.5 / 4.5 in the playoffs. His playoff numbers were pretty much on par with his overall career playoff record.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Remove this Banner Ad