Play Nice Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

[QuietB]

Ben Taylor is one of the best basketball analysts I've come across. His youtube channel consistently puts out high quality stuff.

It's interesting that you've just posted this as well because I just came here to post a podcast he did with Nate Duncan (who is another one of the very best basketball minds around) regarding the topic of Lebron v Jordan.

It's quite a balanced discussion so prob not for likes of jod

#6: Nate Duncan, Part II - LeBron vs. Jordan

In Part II of our conversation, Nate and I (finally) talk Jordan vs. LeBron, comparing levels of competition, conference disparities, outside shooting, defensive consistency, longevity and the problems with Delorean-free time travel. If you like it, please support at <a...

player.fm

Keep in mind also, this podcast was recorded about 2 years ago.

Great discussion. The discussion around the strength of the league in mid late to late 90’s was interesting.

the discussion about Jordan’s jump shot and the high release was interesting too. Kobe is the reference there - similar Shooting form - played in the 3pt era - .329 3pt shooter.

Really highlights that we are splitting hairs - both are great. As is Kareem. And Russell. And probably others.

 

[Scotland]

I think people make way too much of the Danny Green missed 3. Danny Green while a normally unreliable shooter was 3/6 at that stage from 3 and wide open. He is/was a 50% NBA Finals 3 point shooter IIRC over 3 series with the Spurs, Raptors and Lakers. He missed, they lost. Ultimately it didn't change anything. I agree that it was LeBron vs Butler all night so people wanted to see those guys taking the last shots for their teams.

If people want to look for non-GOAT plays then AD's 3 pointer in game 2 vs Denver. Davis a foot behind the line catch and shoot isn't a % play and LeBron was happy to just set a screen. You just know Jordan would've wanted the ball in his hands in that situation.

 

[fidstar]

Green shot was terrible. It was a poorly designed play that had LeBron running into trouble to kick out to a guy that was ice cold (yes, I know he was okay in that game, but had been shooting terribly since the bubble started).

I say that as someone who thought he made the right play by kicking out to Korver a few years back.

 

[QuietB]

Green shot was terrible. It was a poorly designed play that had LeBron running into trouble to kick out to a guy that was ice cold (yes, I know he was okay in that game, but had been shooting terribly since the bubble started).

I say that as someone who thought he made the right play by kicking out to Korver a few years back.

One huge difference between Jordan and LeBron is Jordan had probably the most reliable mid range pull up jumper in the history of basketball.

90% Of Jordan’s game winners are that shot.

LeBron does not reliably have that shot.

That does not exclude him from GOAT discussions.

 

[YippeeYiYeo]

 

[Scotland]

Why didn't he pout and hold his hands out after every play?

 

[jod23]

GOAT.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Can't be bothered reading through the whole thread, so apologies for any repeated arguments, but here's my 2 cents:
- If you were picking teams for an all-star type game, or dream team, and knew that the whole team would be great, then Jordan would be the most dominant piece to add to such a team (as anyone who's seen the famous dream team scrimmage can attest to). His individual brilliance would rise above even other great players, including Lebron (just).
- But, Jordan simply is not the best player to build a team from scratch around. His fans will focus exclusively on his 6/6 rings, and ignore the many seasons where he didn't go deep in the play-offs. The best example of this is 1995. MJ came back mid-season, and they got beaten in the conference finals by Shaq and Penny's Magic.

The Last Dance tried desparately to make out that Jordan had to transform his whole body after a season and half playing baseball, and that that's the reason they lost. The real reason is much more simple - they didn't have Dennis Rodman at that point, and Jordan, Pippen and a decent supporting cast were simply not good enough to beat Shaq and Penny in beast-mode.

They obviously couldn't get past the Pistons for several years, and never beat Bird and the Celtics in a series. Lebron, by contrast, has taken absolute dog-s**t teams to the NBA Finals. He has made the Finals 10 years in a row. There is absolutely no way that Jordan could have taken some of those teams to the finals - none.

That being said, if you swapped Jordan in for Lebron in the year the Heat got beaten by the Mavs, Jordan probably would have taken that team to the championship.

On the other hand, if you swapped Jordan in for Lebron in the year that Lebron and the Cavs upset the 73-9 GSW, there is absolutely no way on this earth that a Jordan-led Cavs, playing against that Warriors team, would have won that championship. Lebron's effort to drag his team over the line against a far, far, far superior team is the single greatest effort in NBA history. If you believe otherwise, then you have never watched any of the 9 seasons where Jordan's teams crashed out of the play-offs without reaching the Finals. He needed awesome supporting casts around him. Jordan went 6/6, but in almost all of those wins, his teammates were basically better than the oppo team. If you took Jordan off those Bulls teams, and took the best player off the Lakers (Magic), Blazers (Drexler), Suns (Barkley), Sonics (Kemp), and Jazz (Malone), then the Bulls win all of those series, with the possible exception of the Suns, led by KJ and Majerle.

Lebron's ability as a scorer and play-maker make him more valuable than Jordan when building a team from scratch, where the talent of the pieces around the star player is not guaranteed. Lebron makes his teammates so much better it's not funny. He is one of the best passers of all time. Jordan, great as he was, just did not have that dimension to his game. Lebron's FG% - in several seasons hovering around 60% - is probably one of the best single indicators of his dominance. It's absolutely unheard of for someone other than a centre to have a FG% like that.

Jordan is greater than Lebron is certain, limited contexts, such as in a dream-team type scrimmage, or, if he was traded in to complement an already stacked team, and undoubtedly, when closing out a game. But I think any GM in the NBA would take a young Lebron 1st in a draft as the player to build a championship around.

 

[jod23]

Can't be bothered reading through the whole thread, so apologies for any repeated arguments, but here's my 2 cents:
- If you were picking teams for an all-star type game, or dream team, and knew that the whole team would be great, then Jordan would be the most dominant piece to add to such a team (as anyone who's seen the famous dream team scrimmage can attest to). His individual brilliance would rise above even other great players, including Lebron (just).
- But, Jordan simply is not the best player to build a team from scratch around. His fans will focus exclusively on his 6/6 rings, and ignore the many seasons where he didn't go deep in the play-offs. The best example of this is 1995. MJ came back mid-season, and they got beaten in the conference finals by Shaq and Penny's Magic.

The Last Dance tried desparately to make out that Jordan had to transform his whole body after a season and half playing baseball, and that that's the reason they lost. The real reason is much more simple - they didn't have Dennis Rodman at that point, and Jordan, Pippen and a decent supporting cast were simply not good enough to beat Shaq and Penny in beast-mode.

They obviously couldn't get past the Pistons for several years, and never beat Bird and the Celtics in a series. Lebron, by contrast, has taken absolute dog-sh*t teams to the NBA Finals. He has made the Finals 10 years in a row. There is absolutely no way that Jordan could have taken some of those teams to the finals - none.

That being said, if you swapped Jordan in for Lebron in the year the Heat got beaten by the Mavs, Jordan probably would have taken that team to the championship.

On the other hand, if you swapped Jordan in for Lebron in the year that Lebron and the Cavs upset the 73-9 GSW, there is absolutely no way on this earth that a Jordan-led Cavs, playing against that Warriors team, would have won that championship. Lebron's effort to drag his team over the line against a far, far, far superior team is the single greatest effort in NBA history. If you believe otherwise, then you have never watched any of the 9 seasons where Jordan's teams crashed out of the play-offs without reaching the Finals. He needed awesome supporting casts around him. Jordan went 6/6, but in almost all of those wins, his teammates were basically better than the oppo team. If you took Jordan off those Bulls teams, and took the best player off the Lakers (Magic), Blazers (Drexler), Suns (Barkley), Sonics (Kemp), and Jazz (Malone), then the Bulls win all of those series, with the possible exception of the Suns, led by KJ and Majerle.

Lebron's ability as a scorer and play-maker make him more valuable than Jordan when building a team from scratch, where the talent of the pieces around the star player is not guaranteed. Lebron makes his teammates so much better it's not funny. He is one of the best passers of all time. Jordan, great as he was, just did not have that dimension to his game. Lebron's FG% - in several seasons hovering around 60% - is probably one of the best single indicators of his dominance. It's absolutely unheard of for someone other than a centre to have a FG% like that.

Jordan is greater than Lebron is certain, limited contexts, such as in a dream-team type scrimmage, or, if he was traded in to complement an already stacked team, and undoubtedly, when closing out a game. But I think any GM in the NBA would take a young Lebron 1st in a draft as the player to build a championship around.

A lot of what you said is just conjecture. There is no way to know if you substitute Jordan in for LeBron if the Cavs beat the Warriors. Also no way to know if Jordan was on the Heat team instead of LeBron that they would beat the Mavs. It's impossible to know these things so you cant argue one way or another if it helps or doesnt help each players argument. It's futile.

What I did find amusing was you said Jordan needed awesome supporting cast around him. Firstly every star player needs a good supporting cast to win chips but seriously bro, LeBron creates super teams and recruits other top 5 NBA players (AD) to help him win chips. He too needs awesome supporting cast to win chips.

As for building a team from scratch, if your argument is he makes his teammates better then you'd take Magic before any player ever. You said LeBron as a scorer and play-maker make him more valuable than Jordan but leave out one side of the floor... defense, where Jordan shits on LeBron. Also... play-maker, just break down that word, play-maker. So you need someone to make a play, well I'm passing the ball to Jordan then, cos he probs gonna do that... on his own.

The point you make about LBJ's FG% is not even real, you're just making it up. LBJ's best season FG% wise is .567 that's not 60% and there are not several seasons like this. His career FG% is .504 and his FG% drops dramatically outside of 0-3 feet from the basket. Jordan is by far the better shooter.

And back to building a team from scratch. I'm a big believer in having the best player on my team. I think every GM takes Jordan because he is the GOAT. Then you just build from there. People to go on about LeBron's passing and that he's a playmaker or whatever. But Jordan was still an excellent passer and in all his years never really had a great PG on his team. Paxson, Armstrong, Ron Harper, Steve Kerr... not great passers. Jordan doesn't need a Stockton or a Magic. Just a random bloke who can pass him the ball and he will do the rest.

LBJ is definitely 2nd all time. But he's a fair way back from MJ.

 

[RichLeMonde]

A lot of what you said is just conjecture. There is no way to know if you substitute Jordan in for LeBron if the Cavs beat the Warriors. Also no way to know if Jordan was on the Heat team instead of LeBron that they would beat the Mavs. It's impossible to know these things so you cant argue one way or another if it helps or doesnt help each players argument. It's futile.

What I did find amusing was you said Jordan needed awesome supporting cast around him. Firstly every star player needs a good supporting cast to win chips but seriously bro, LeBron creates super teams and recruits other top 5 NBA players (AD) to help him win chips. He too needs awesome supporting cast to win chips.

As for building a team from scratch, if your argument is he makes his teammates better then you'd take Magic before any player ever. You said LeBron as a scorer and play-maker make him more valuable than Jordan but leave out one side of the floor... defense, where Jordan shits on LeBron. Also... play-maker, just break down that word, play-maker. So you need someone to make a play, well I'm passing the ball to Jordan then, cos he probs gonna do that... on his own.

The point you make about LBJ's FG% is not even real, you're just making it up. LBJ's best season FG% wise is .567 that's not 60% and there are not several seasons like this. His career FG% is .504 and his FG% drops dramatically outside of 0-3 feet from the basket. Jordan is by far the better shooter.

And back to building a team from scratch. I'm a big believer in having the best player on my team. I think every GM takes Jordan because he is the GOAT. Then you just build from there. People to go on about LeBron's passing and that he's a playmaker or whatever. But Jordan was still an excellent passer and in all his years never really had a great PG on his team. Paxson, Armstrong, Ron Harper, Steve Kerr... not great passers. Jordan doesn't need a Stockton or a Magic. Just a random bloke who can pass him the ball and he will do the rest.

LBJ is definitely 2nd all time. But he's a fair way back from MJ.

Yes, it is all conjecture, but they are relevant thought experiments. And I think a lot of experts would agree with them. In your own opinions, do you think Jordan could have taken the Cavs past GSW? Do you think Jordan could have taken Lebron's teams to 10 straight Finals?

Magic is fairly overrated imo - I think Bird was a much better player. Magic was a below avg defender, avg shooter, not a great scorer compared to guys like Isiah. If he had a personality like a doorknob, played for a small market team, and didn’t have guys like Kareem as teammates, he would not be put up in GOAT conversations. One of the greats, but not Mt Rushmore greats. And no, I’m not some young whippersnapper who underrates old guys - I grew up in the 80s watching those guys play. I still have the 92 all star game with Magic as MVP on VHS lol. My point about LBJ’s playmakimg is that no player in the modern era has combined scoring and play making like LeBron. Magic only scored 40 points a handful of times in his career. LeBron is as good a playmaker as magic, especially ina halfcourt set, and almost as good a scorer as MJ.

On FG% - Lebron has 2 regular seasons with 57% and one with 55%. He has 3 play-off campaigns (each with at least 18 games) with FG% of 57, 57 and 56%. My point still stands that these numbers are unprecedented for anyone other than an inside big. MJ never has a regular season or play-offs averaging at least 55% FG, although to be fair he had a few around 53-54%. Jordan may be the better shooter (though not the better 3-point shooter), but Lebron is a more efficient scorer.

Jordan was not an excellent passer. No one believes that. His inability to create shots for his teammates is what stopped him going deep in the play-offs when he wasn't surrounded by stellar casts.

Yes all good players need supporting casts to win chips. My point is that LeBron has been able to play Finals for 10 straight years without much of a supporting cast in some years. When Jordan has had comparable supporting casts to those years, he has struggled to make it to the conference finals.

And your point about the difference between their defensive capabilities is overstated. Lebron has some all defensive first teams selections. He's made some of the best defensive plays in the history of the game. Let's put it this way - Jordan's defence is about is good as Lebron's passing - both in the top 5-10 all time. But Lebron's defence is much, much, much better than Jordan's passing.

Also, if you're into analytics, Lebron actually far outranks MJ in VORP (value over replacement player).

I admit Jordan is a more valuable player than Lebron in some contexts, and so can be considered the greatest of all time by some, limited criteria. But I don't really see how anyone could not admit that Lebron is more valuable in other contexts, and is the greatest player of all time by other - and indeed a wider range of - criteria.

 

[jod23]

Yes, it is all conjecture, but they are relevant thought experiments. And I think a lot of experts would agree with them. In your own opinions, do you think Jordan could have taken the Cavs past GSW? Do you think Jordan could have taken Lebron's teams to 10 straight Finals?

Magic is fairly overrated imo - I think Bird was a much better player. Magic was a below avg defender, avg shooter, not a great scorer compared to guys like Isiah. If he had a personality like a doorknob, played for a small market team, and didn’t have guys like Kareem as teammates, he would not be put up in GOAT conversations. One of the greats, but not Mt Rushmore greats. And no, I’m not some young whippersnapper who underrates old guys - I grew up in the 80s watching those guys play. I still have the 92 all star game with Magic as MVP on VHS lol. My point about LBJ’s playmakimg is that no player in the modern era has combined scoring and play making like LeBron. Magic from memory never scored 40 points in a game, or maybe did a couple of times. LeBron is as good a playmaker as magic, especially ina halfcourt set, and almost as good a scorer as MJ.

On FG% - Lebron has 2 regular seasons with 57% and one with 55%. He has 3 play-off campaigns (each with at least 18 games) with FG% of 57, 57 and 56%. My point still stands that these numbers are unprecedented for anyone other than an inside big. MJ never has a regular season or play-offs averaging at least 55% FG, although to be fair he had a few around 53-54%. Jordan may be the better shooter (though not the better 3-point shooter), but Lebron is a more efficient scorer.

Yes all good players need supporting casts to win chips. My point is that LeBron has been able to play Finals for 10 straight years without much of a supporting cast in some years. When Jordan has had comparable supporting casts to those years, he has struggled to make it to the conference finals.

And your point about the difference between their defensive capabilities is overstated. Lebron has some all defensive first teams selections. He's made some of the best defensive plays in the history of the game. Let's put it this way - Jordan's defence is about is good as Lebron's passing - both in the top 5-10 all time. But Lebron's defence is much, much, much better than Jordan's passing.

Also, if you're into analytics, Lebron actually far outranks MJ in VORP (value over replacement player).

I admit Jordan is a more valuable player than Lebron in some contexts, and so can be considered the greatest of all time in some contexts. But I don't really see how anyone could not admit that Lebron is more valuable in other contexts, and is the greatest player of all time in other contexts.

It's too difficult to say whether or not Jordan or LeBron when switched teams would be successful. The teams would be totally different, built differently, play differently. It's just something you cant really quantify. I will say though that Jordan never had a scorer like Kyrie on his team. That would have helped massively not to have to carry the offensive burden night after night.

As for 10 straight finals, well again that's not true. LeBron led his respective teams to 8 straight NBA Finals, not 10. Would Jordan have done that, IMO easily, the East was mainly awful in all those years, Jordan wouldnt have had much trouble.

Magic is overrated? I mean what in god's name are you talking about. I do agree he was an average shooter but he was a good defender, not great but good and a good scorer. If he didn't have teammates like Kareem, don't you mean if Kareem didn't have teammates like Magic. Magic ran that show, you say from memory that he never scored 40... As a rookie in Game 6 of the NBA Finals without Kareem who was out injured, he put up 42, 15 and 7. But Magic wasn't about scoring, he didn't need to pour in 40 every game. He was elite at finding teammates for easy buckets. He is the greatest passer of all time, far far better than LeBron and LeBron is not "almost" as good a scorer as Jordan, there is a wide gap there.

Having said that I do agree that LeBron is a rare breed of scorer and play maker or facilitator if you will. Not many guys do both, you either get assist guys like Stockton, Kidd, Rondo etc or volume scorers like Kobe, Iverson, T-Mac. But there are quite a few examples of guys that do both like LeBron, Isiah, KJ, Oscar Robertson, Nash, Chris Paul, Harden, Wall, Westbrook, Tim Hardaway, Steph to a smaller degree.

Back to LBJ's FG% and his numbers are horribly skewed and you are just looking at the raw numbers but let's break them down. Let's take this season just gone... LeBron took 574 shots from within 5 feet of the bucket, from anywhere else on the floor he took 729 shots. So inside 5 feet LeBron is averaging 67.9% and from anywhere else on the floor he is averaging a horrible 34.7%. If you think that is efficient or if he is as a good a shooter and scorer as Jordan then I guess I just cant help you.

Again you bring up 10 straight finals which doesnt exist. You also seem to think LBJ didnt have any supporting casts which is laughable. The only year LeBron made it to the finals without any real help was in 2007 which was an absolutely fantastic effort and then he got swept. In the other years it was Wade, Bosh and Ray Allen and in Cleveland he had Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. Please... he has always been surrounded by All Stars to help him get to the finals.

Jordan has never had comparable supporting casts. Never has Jordan had two All Stars on his team like LeBron has had with Wade and Bosh and Kyrie and Love. Jordan has had just Scottie Pippen and Pippen was only an All Star in four of the six years Jordan won chips. Injury probably kept Pippen from being an All Star in 98. So no Jordan has never had comparable supporting casts and the only time Jordan struggled to make Conference Finals was when he was in a stacked Eastern Conference against the likes of Bird's Celtics and Isiah's Pistons and Jordan had such great teammates like Woolridge, Banks, Cureton, Corzine, Sellers... trash.

Defense is definitely not overstated. One is considered one of the greatest defenders of all time and the other just gave up on defense about half way through his career. LeBron literally takes most defensive plays off, I remember that classic play when Kuzma pushes in the back to make him close out and we all remember how LeBron simply could not handle Jason Terry in the NBA Finals. Jason.... Terry. Jordan and LeBron are worlds apart on the defensive end and that is one of the biggest things that keeps LeBron in 2nd and Jordan way out in 1st.

Again you're making stuff up. VORP, I dont know where you get your stats from but VORP is a cumulative stat. So the longer you play the more you get hence why LBJ is the all time leader in total VORP. Look at the all time leaderboard in VORP and you have Stockton, Garnett, Duncan, Malone, Kareem all taking up the top spots, they all played 20 years. Despite that Jordan is second all time in total VORP despite only playing really only 13 seasons. (Technically 15 but two of those seasons are his comeback year where he played just 17 games and his broken foot season where he played just 18 games)

But again let's break that down. Who has the highest single season VORP of all time? You guessed it, Michael Jordan. Who has 6 of the top 10 single season VORP scores of all time? You guessed it, Michael Jordan. So yeah, I think actually Michael Jordan far out ranks LeBron in VORP.

In fact it's funny you should bring up analytics as Jordan crushes LeBron in all of them. VORP, Box Plus Minus, Win Shares per 48, PER. You name it, Jordan leads it All Time.

Im not a LeBron hater, he's two all time for me. But he's just some way behind Jordan and there is no shame in that.

 

[jod23]

Jordan was not an excellent passer. No one believes that. His inability to create shots for his teammates is what stopped him going deep in the play-offs when he wasn't surrounded by stellar casts.

I wanted to address this one separately. You gotta stop with this myth that Jordan wasnt an excellent passer. As a shooting guard he averaged 5.3 over his career, despite being the main offensive weapon also. His inability to create shots for his teammates had nothing to do with him not going deeper in the playoffs early in his career. The reason why he didnt go further was because his teammates were awful and the Celtics and Pistons were all time great teams.

Jordan was an excellent passer. I present the evidence.




The man could do it all!

 

[QuietB]

A lot of what you said is just conjecture. There is no way to know if you substitute Jordan in for LeBron if the Cavs beat the Warriors. Also no way to know if Jordan was on the Heat team instead of LeBron that they would beat the Mavs. It's impossible to know these things so you cant argue one way or another if it helps or doesnt help each players argument. It's futile.

What I did find amusing was you said Jordan needed awesome supporting cast around him. Firstly every star player needs a good supporting cast to win chips but seriously bro, LeBron creates super teams and recruits other top 5 NBA players (AD) to help him win chips. He too needs awesome supporting cast to win chips.

As for building a team from scratch, if your argument is he makes his teammates better then you'd take Magic before any player ever. You said LeBron as a scorer and play-maker make him more valuable than Jordan but leave out one side of the floor... defense, where Jordan shits on LeBron. Also... play-maker, just break down that word, play-maker. So you need someone to make a play, well I'm passing the ball to Jordan then, cos he probs gonna do that... on his own.

The point you make about LBJ's FG% is not even real, you're just making it up. LBJ's best season FG% wise is .567 that's not 60% and there are not several seasons like this. His career FG% is .504 and his FG% drops dramatically outside of 0-3 feet from the basket. Jordan is by far the better shooter.

And back to building a team from scratch. I'm a big believer in having the best player on my team. I think every GM takes Jordan because he is the GOAT. Then you just build from there. People to go on about LeBron's passing and that he's a playmaker or whatever. But Jordan was still an excellent passer and in all his years never really had a great PG on his team. Paxson, Armstrong, Ron Harper, Steve Kerr... not great passers. Jordan doesn't need a Stockton or a Magic. Just a random bloke who can pass him the ball and he will do the rest.

LBJ is definitely 2nd all time. But he's a fair way back from MJ.

That is just bullshit conjecture man.

Also, peak LeBron defence is so much better that peak Jordan defence it is not even close. There is a reason Jordan needed two of the best defenders of all time on his team to win - TWO - Pippen and Rodman. LeBron can guard more positions and he can guard all of them better (when he can be bothered which of course is different to Jordan - but that is maybe why Jordan could not play as many seasons)

I know it hurts. But it is what it is

 

[QuietB]

Can't be bothered reading through the whole thread, so apologies for any repeated arguments, but here's my 2 cents:
- If you were picking teams for an all-star type game, or dream team, and knew that the whole team would be great, then Jordan would be the most dominant piece to add to such a team (as anyone who's seen the famous dream team scrimmage can attest to). His individual brilliance would rise above even other great players, including Lebron (just).
- But, Jordan simply is not the best player to build a team from scratch around. His fans will focus exclusively on his 6/6 rings, and ignore the many seasons where he didn't go deep in the play-offs. The best example of this is 1995. MJ came back mid-season, and they got beaten in the conference finals by Shaq and Penny's Magic.

The Last Dance tried desparately to make out that Jordan had to transform his whole body after a season and half playing baseball, and that that's the reason they lost. The real reason is much more simple - they didn't have Dennis Rodman at that point, and Jordan, Pippen and a decent supporting cast were simply not good enough to beat Shaq and Penny in beast-mode.

They obviously couldn't get past the Pistons for several years, and never beat Bird and the Celtics in a series. Lebron, by contrast, has taken absolute dog-sh*t teams to the NBA Finals. He has made the Finals 10 years in a row. There is absolutely no way that Jordan could have taken some of those teams to the finals - none.

That being said, if you swapped Jordan in for Lebron in the year the Heat got beaten by the Mavs, Jordan probably would have taken that team to the championship.

On the other hand, if you swapped Jordan in for Lebron in the year that Lebron and the Cavs upset the 73-9 GSW, there is absolutely no way on this earth that a Jordan-led Cavs, playing against that Warriors team, would have won that championship. Lebron's effort to drag his team over the line against a far, far, far superior team is the single greatest effort in NBA history. If you believe otherwise, then you have never watched any of the 9 seasons where Jordan's teams crashed out of the play-offs without reaching the Finals. He needed awesome supporting casts around him. Jordan went 6/6, but in almost all of those wins, his teammates were basically better than the oppo team. If you took Jordan off those Bulls teams, and took the best player off the Lakers (Magic), Blazers (Drexler), Suns (Barkley), Sonics (Kemp), and Jazz (Malone), then the Bulls win all of those series, with the possible exception of the Suns, led by KJ and Majerle.

Lebron's ability as a scorer and play-maker make him more valuable than Jordan when building a team from scratch, where the talent of the pieces around the star player is not guaranteed. Lebron makes his teammates so much better it's not funny. He is one of the best passers of all time. Jordan, great as he was, just did not have that dimension to his game. Lebron's FG% - in several seasons hovering around 60% - is probably one of the best single indicators of his dominance. It's absolutely unheard of for someone other than a centre to have a FG% like that.

Jordan is greater than Lebron is certain, limited contexts, such as in a dream-team type scrimmage, or, if he was traded in to complement an already stacked team, and undoubtedly, when closing out a game. But I think any GM in the NBA would take a young Lebron 1st in a draft as the player to build a championship around.

Amen brother

 

[RichLeMonde]

Would Jordan have done that, IMO easily, the East was mainly awful in all those years, Jordan wouldnt have had much trouble.

Jordan would not have been able to take the '07 Cavs to the Finals (sure that year wasn't part of LBJ's 8 straight Finals, but my overall point is regarding who is the more valuable player, in terms of being able make his team win). There is nothing I can say to convince you of this point, but having played and coached ball at a decent level, and watched most of Jordan's and Lebron's careers, I have no doubt that it is true. I think the fact that you chose not to reply to the question of whether Jordan could have led the Cavs past the Warriors reveals that we both know he couldn't have.

Magic is overrated? I mean what in god's name are you talking about. He is the greatest passer of all time, far far better than LeBron and LeBron is not "almost" as good a scorer as Jordan, there is a wide gap there.

A lot of people have Magic top 3-5 all time. I don't see it. I think he's top 7-10 all time, for the reasons I've given. To me, the definition of a great passer is someone who makes passes that a) most other players couldn't and that b) create good shots. By those criteria, truly standout passes are usually made in a halfcourt set. A lot of Magic's highlight passes are in fastbreak 2 on 1, or 3 on 2s, with big passing lanes, where to be honest all NBA players should be able to make a pass that leads to a score. Magic's fastbreak passes look great, but often Magic put a bit of unnecessary mayo on them. It's actually much harder to thread the needle through 5 guys playing defence. This is where Lebron has proven to be one of the absolute best passers of all time. Lebron has created good shots for his teammates, in ways that other passers could not have, just as well as Magic did. Lebron creates good shots absolutely out of thin air. I watched your Jordan passing highlights. It reveals how rarely Jordan pulled off passes that meet the two simple criteria of difficulty and utility - not saying he doesn't have any nice passes in that package, but anyone who's played knows that it's not actually a big deal to throw the ball behind your back to make an otherwise unexceptional pass, and there were a LOT of those passes in that package.

So inside 5 feet LeBron is averaging 67.9% and from anywhere else on the floor he is averaging a horrible 34.7%.

That's kind of the point - Lebron knows how to score efficiently. His true FG% career wise is around 60%. It's not a criticism that he scores a lot close to the basket. Hell, that was how Jordan scored the overwhelming majority of his points prior to his first retirement.

You also seem to think LBJ didnt have any supporting casts which is laughable.

Supporting casts are relative to the rest of the league. That's why I made the point that if you took Jordan off his team, and the best player of his oppo teams in the Finals, the Bulls still win all those series. If you took Lebron off his team, and Duncan and Curry off their teams, the Heat/Cavs would have been trounced. This year, if you take away Lebron and Butler the Lakers would still win, and against OKC if you took away Lebron and Durant it would be much closer. But seriously, Jordan's team in the second 3-peat, in a league which did not have stacked superstar teams, was unbelievable. I'm happy to take the word of Bird - as the only guy to have won an MVP, Coach of the Year, and Executive of the Year - when he says that in those years Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league. Rodman probably best defender and rebounder ever. Kukoc coming off the bench. That cast was way better than any of Lebron's, and in a league where teams weren't stacked. Even in '94 when Jordan retired, BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant immediately became All-Stars, so MJ basically had 3 All-Star teammates.

Defense is definitely not overstated.

Dude Lebron has come 2nd in DPotY. The gap is wider in their rebounding and passing (both obvious ticks to LBJ) than their defence.

 

[fidstar]

That 07 Cavs team beat teams that won 41, 41, and 52 games.

Only one series (against Detroit) was an achievement. And in that series LeBron averaged 25/9/8 on 45% shooting.

It's not unreasonable to think MJ could have done that.

 

[jod23]

That is just bullshit conjecture man.

Also, peak LeBron defence is so much better that peak Jordan defence it is not even close. There is a reason Jordan needed two of the best defenders of all time on his team to win - TWO - Pippen and Rodman. LeBron can guard more positions and he can guard all of them better (when he can be bothered which of course is different to Jordan - but that is maybe why Jordan could not play as many seasons)

I know it hurts. But it is what it is

Your knowledge of basketball is poor, like horrendously poor. I feel for you.

 

[QuietB]

Your knowledge of basketball is poor, like horrendously poor. I feel for you.

 

[fidstar]

I'll stick to what I always say about defense, MJ is a better defender. But if we were talking one possession for it all, I have no issues with someone picking LeBron.

His best is at worst equal to MJ, but he doesn't play like that all the time. And that has to mean something.

 

[RichLeMonde]

I'll stick to what I always say about defense, MJ is a better defender. But if we were talking one possession for it all, I have no issues with someone picking LeBron.

His best is at worst equal to MJ, but he doesn't play like that all the time. And that has to mean something.

That is a good summary imo.

 

[jod23]

Jordan would not have been able to take the '07 Cavs to the Finals (sure that year wasn't part of LBJ's 8 straight Finals, but my overall point is regarding who is the more valuable player, in terms of being able make his team win). There is nothing I can say to convince you of this point, but having played and coached ball at a decent level, and watched most of Jordan's and Lebron's careers, I have no doubt that it is true. I think the fact that you chose not to reply to the question of whether Jordan could have led the Cavs past the Warriors reveals that we both know he couldn't have.

As Fidstar said, the Cavs beat three teams that won 41, 41 and 52 games. The East has been awful for most of LeBron's career. So yeah I fully believe Jordan would have walked into the NBA finals with that Cavs team. I did reply about the Cavs and Warriors, it's all conjecture. I'd never bet against Jordan in his prime. He was the monster, he was the player everyone feared so I'd back him with Kyrie and Kevin Love to win that series.

But as I've said, it's all opinion and too difficult to know for sure either way. Different eras, different officiating, it's an impossible task.

I too have played basketball since I was old enough to hold one, have coached juniors in the past, played state ball when I was teenager and I've watched all of MJ and LeBrons career so that doesnt really matter much ... people can understand the game just as well if they dont have our experience with it too.

A lot of people have Magic top 3-5 all time. I don't see it. I think he's top 7-10 all time, for the reasons I've given. To me, the definition of a great passer is someone who makes passes that a) most other players couldn't and that b) create good shots. By those criteria, truly standout passes are usually made in a halfcourt set. A lot of Magic's highlight passes are in fastbreak 2 on 1, or 3 on 2s, with big passing lanes, where to be honest all NBA players should be able to make a pass that leads to a score. Magic's fastbreak passes look great, but often Magic put a bit of unnecessary mayo on them. It's actually much harder to thread the needle through 5 guys playing defence. This is where Lebron has proven to be one of the absolute best passers of all time. Lebron has created good shots for his teammates, in ways that other passers could not have, just as well as Magic did. Lebron creates good shots absolutely out of thin air. I watched your Jordan passing highlights. It reveals how rarely Jordan pulled off passes that meet the two simple criteria of difficulty and utility - not saying he doesn't have any nice passes in that package, but anyone who's played knows that it's not actually a big deal to throw the ball behind your back to make an otherwise unexceptional pass, and there were a LOT of those passes in that package.

I definitely have Magic in the top 5 of all time. Who do you have in front of him if you are putting as low as the 7-10 region?? That's crazy. Why are passes most couldnt do and create shots limited to a half court set? Basketball is played on the entire floor and fast break basketball and run n gun is a thing. Why are you limiting great passers to the half court setting, that makes zero sense. If all players can make Magic's passes, why werent they doing them? Unnecessary mayo... absolutely but EVERY player does this. You dont have to do a no look pass, but players do it, it doesnt have to be behind the back but players do it. You dont have to windmill a dunk or 360, just go up one handed and dunk it, but players do it. It's showmanship and all great players do it, how is this a knock on Magic is hilarious.

LeBron in no universe is as good as creating for his teammates and making ridiculous passes as Magic Johnson is. I mean have you ever even seen Magic play? LeBron is a great passer but geez you're really going overboard here mate. It's ok to be great but not as great as someone else. LeBron fans get so hurt when he's not considered the best, like fans lose their mind when people rate him as the 2nd best all time which is a GIGANTIC compliment. He's not as great as MJ and he's not as great a passer as Magic but he's still bloody great.

After watching that Jordan passing video and just dismissing it shows you cant see it from any other way than your own. I give you game evidence of Jordan's excellent passing ability and you're just like nah. Well I cant help you then...

That's kind of the point - Lebron knows how to score efficiently. His true FG% career wise is around 60%. It's not a criticism that he scores a lot close to the basket. Hell, that was how Jordan scored the overwhelming majority of his points prior to his first retirement.

If he is so efficient he would stop taking shots outside of 3 feet. It is a criticism of his game because if you cut off the drive, suddenly LeBron becomes somewhat of a liability. Cut off Jordan's drive, and he will just splash a turn around jumper in your face from 18 feet. LeBron has a lot of holes in his game, I've said this time and time again. LeBron has weaknesses, Magic had weaknesses, Kareem did, Shaq did, almost every great all time player had weaknesses. Jordan just doesnt really have any, it's why he's the GOAT and it's what sets him apart.

Supporting casts are relative to the rest of the league. That's why I made the point that if you took Jordan off his team, and the best player of his oppo teams in the Finals, the Bulls still win all those series. If you took Lebron off his team, and Duncan and Curry off their teams, the Heat/Cavs would have been trounced. This year, if you take away Lebron and Butler the Lakers would still win, and against OKC if you took away Lebron and Durant it would be much closer. But seriously, Jordan's team in the second 3-peat, in a league which did not have stacked superstar teams, was unbelievable. I'm happy to take the word of Bird - as the only guy to have won an MVP, Coach of the Year, and Executive of the Year - when he says that in those years Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league. Rodman probably best defender and rebounder ever. Kukoc coming off the bench. That cast was way better than any of Lebron's, and in a league where teams weren't stacked. Even in '94 when Jordan retired, BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant immediately became All-Stars, so MJ basically had 3 All-Star teammates.


Dude Lebron has come 2nd in DPotY. The gap is wider in their rebounding and passing (both obvious ticks to LBJ) than their defence.

I already shot down the supporting casts argument. LeBron has had far more help and lost far more often. As I said, Pippen is the only All Star Jordan ever played with. He was an All Star four times during the six championships. That's it. Yet LeBron has played with Kyrie and Kevin Love, perennial All Stars, with Wade and Bosh, perennial All Stars and Wade is the 3rd best SG of all time and a former NBA Finals MVP. Now he plays with AD who is a ridiculous talent, a complete freak. He's had far more help.

LeBron did finish 2nd one year but that's not 1st. He's never won a DPotY and the year he finished 2nd he was trying on defense, but for a good 7 year stretch LeBron just hasnt bothered on D. LeBron hasnt made an All D team, 1st or 2nd team in 6 years! Six! Hasnt made the ALL D 1st team in 7 years. Jordan made the ALL D 1st team every single year since 87/88 until he retired with the Bulls. No plays off, again another thing that sets them apart.

 

[jod23]

I'll stick to what I always say about defense, MJ is a better defender. But if we were talking one possession for it all, I have no issues with someone picking LeBron.

His best is at worst equal to MJ, but he doesn't play like that all the time. And that has to mean something.

You better hope that last possession and the player who has the ball isnt Jason Terry or LeBron is ****ed.

 

[YippeeYiYeo]

Recent interview with the GOAT.

 

[Scotland]

That 07 Cavs team beat teams that won 41, 41, and 52 games.

Only one series (against Detroit) was an achievement. And in that series LeBron averaged 25/9/8 on 45% shooting.

It's not unreasonable to think MJ could have done that.

Compare that to the 89/90 Bulls who beat Cleveland (42), Philly (53) then lost in 7 to the Pistons (59) in the ECF. Jordan 36.7 points a game at 51% shooting.

88/89 was Cleveland (57), New York (52) then lost in 6 to the Pistons (63). Jordan 34.8 points a game at 51% shooting.

LeBron plus no one aren't getting past the bad boy Pistons. No way.

 

[Scotland]

The 07 Cavs also got swept by a Spurs team (post Robinson, pre Kawhi) that had to get past a 61 win Suns team in the conference semis because of the seeding rules at the time.

The no-name starting 5 was LeBron + Larry Hughes (all defensive first team two years earlier), Zydrunas Ilgauskas (2 time all star), Sasha Pavlovic (role player) and Drew Gooden (role player). Was a good effort to get there but 22-7-7 isn't some game changing superhuman effort.