Play Nice Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

[jod23]

Lillard is fantastic but he's no Steph Curry. I do feel for Lillard though, I dont think he's has much help over the years.

 

[PJays]

I mean Curry's Finals stats...

Time adjusted Kobe's finals stats>Curry's finals stats

Eg teams averaged more ppg in Curry's era, plus more assists and rebounds, so as a percentage of points scored etc Kobe's are better

Also Kobe played 3 finals series as a 22-24 year old, all Curry's were in his prime

 

[fidstar]

My point was more that there is a misconception that Curry has been poor in the Finals because he hasn't won a Finals MVP. He's been really good and comparable to other guys who have reputations of being Final performers.

For instance in 2019 Kawhi averaged 28/10/4 on 50% EFG, Steph 31/5/6 on 50.4 EFG%. Yet, Kawhi walks away with a big time performer reputation, and Steph keep getting s**t for not winning a Finals MVP.

Regarding time adjusted stats. You are right. They are scoring more today. But this is mostly offset by players playing less minutes now.

Also, Kobe's stats in the 3 Finals he played in his prime were 28/6/6 @ 41% from the field. Not really any different from his time with Shaq.

 

[BigBreakfast]

He changed the way the game is played. Few players have ever done that. Wilt was one... Steph is another.

Others who changed the game and ruling of it:

1. Kareem, Alcindor at the time saw college basketball outlaw the dunk and in the pros every team needed a big centre which saw Bowie drafted before Jordan
2. Michael Jordan saw an illegal offence rule entrenched
3. Barkley saw the inclusion of a 5 second post up rule.

I wonder who the next game changer will be?

 

[fidstar]

Big men were always seen as the most important player on the court. That goes back to pre-Kareem days.

 

[jod23]

Big men were always seen as the most important player on the court. That goes back to pre-Kareem days.

Yep, weirdly this didnt even change after 1980 when all the championships being won were led by non centres. Magic, Bird, Isiah, Jordan. Yet all throughout the 80's and 90's big men were heralded.

Now bigmen are pretty much obsolete. If you cant shoot, you cant play.

 

[QuietB]

Yep, weirdly this didnt even change after 1980 when all the championships being won were led by non centres. Magic, Bird, Isiah, Jordan. Yet all throughout the 80's and 90's big men were heralded.

Now bigmen are pretty much obsolete. If you cant shoot, you cant play.

Shaq won his MVP in 2000. Big men were still huge at that point. Robinson and Olajuwon had won MVP in the 90's.

Magic might have been taking over the Lakers in the 80's but Kareem was still putting up 20 points a game in 1986.

 

[BigBreakfast]

Yep, weirdly this didnt even change after 1980 when all the championships being won were led by non centres. Magic, Bird, Isiah, Jordan. Yet all throughout the 80's and 90's big men were heralded.

Now bigmen are pretty much obsolete. If you cant shoot, you cant play.

Suns and Jazz might question that assertion? Zubac doing ok. Generally speaking you are right however, a skilled big man in the paint to mid range will always be useful. I would suggest passing and/or screening ability would be stronger attributes.

 

[BigBreakfast]

Shaq won his MVP in 2000. Big men were still huge at that point. Robinson and Olajuwon had won MVP in the 90's.

Magic might have been taking over the Lakers in the 80's but Kareem was still putting up 20 points a game in 1986.

And still starting and an All Star in ‘89, albeit a sympathy inclusion.

 

[BEaston]

My reply was to your comment about IT being clearly the best player for Detroit. They both averaged about 17 or 18 points per game, so nothing in it. Fun fact - Dantley actually led the team in scoring in 89 (though only played 42 games). Dumars was also clearly a better defensive player.

I've already stated that Stockton got there on longevity. ITs peak wasn't that much better than Stockton's to over ride that. IT finished Top 5 in the MVP once (5th in 84), so lets stop pretending he was a superstar consistently at the Top of the league.

How old were you during the Bad Boy pistons? If you were watching/following NBA at the time, it's clear Thomas was their best player easily. He was the leader of the team. Most of the time he just spent the game getting the others involved then would just take over in the 4th if it was still on the line. Can't really look at the stats when assessing Thomas.

 

[jod23]

Shaq won his MVP in 2000. Big men were still huge at that point. Robinson and Olajuwon had won MVP in the 90's.

Magic might have been taking over the Lakers in the 80's but Kareem was still putting up 20 points a game in 1986.

It's only recently that the big man has become obsolete. It's still ingrained in the game though as recently a couple of years ago teams were taking Ayton and Bagley Jr over talents like Trae Young and Doncic.

It's the old saying, you cant teach size.

Whilst height and size will always be coveted in the NBA, the bigmen now need to be able to shoot. That was never the case in years gone by. I remember when the term stretch 4 became a thing, when some PF's could shoot the three and spread the floor a little, now it's not just your PF's but your C's too that need to be able to shoot.

I can think of two recent examples of big men who would be priceless in the 80's and 90's but are rendered useless in todays game. Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond. Drummond still trying to prove he is worth a big contract at Detroit but he only plays because they are so god awful and he is a fantastic rebounder but he wont get a max from anyone, absolutely no chance.

Monroe went from the 7th overall pick in the draft and being a 15 and 10 guy to being basically out of the league before he was 30. Cant shoot, cant play.

 

[fidstar]

How old were you during the Bad Boy pistons? If you were watching/following NBA at the time, it's clear Thomas was their best player easily. He was the leader of the team. Most of the time he just spent the game getting the others involved then would just take over in the 4th if it was still on the line. Can't really look at the stats when assessing Thomas.

I was in my teens.

Do you just ignore the fact that Dumars was an All NBA selection and IT wasn't in those 2 years? Being that they both pay guard, this isn't an issue of having to pick a player in a certain position. 2 time All NBA 1st team defense as well, to zero.

I'm not even saying Dumars was better in those two years. But there was nothing in it.

I'm also not talking career, where IT was clearly better. Just their two Championship years.

 

[jod23]

I was in my teens.

Do you just ignore the fact that Dumars was an All NBA selection and IT wasn't in those 2 years? Being that they both pay guard, this isn't an issue of having to pick a player in a certain position. 2 time All NBA 1st team defense as well, to zero.

I'm not even saying Dumars was better in those two years. But there was nothing in it.

I'm also not talking career, where IT was clearly better. Just their two Championship years.

Dumars was excellent in the championship years. But Zeke was their leader, everybody knew that.

 

[fidstar]

Dumars was excellent in the championship years. But Zeke was their leader, everybody knew that.

I never mentioned him not being their leader.

 

[maryjames]

Lebron.

 

[jod23]

Lebron.

That's awful.

It's another reason why LBJ is no MJ.

 

[Scotland]

Who wore it better?

 

[PP34]

Steph is a funny one. He's into his 12th season and has already missed the playoffs 4 times (last year he barely played). Warriors are 11-9 currently but no guarantee of making the playoffs this year. Phenomenal shooter and very good point guard but he's not the sort of guy you can just transplant onto any old team and make them a contender. I think he could've been FMVP in 2015 or 2018 but his record still shows he has 3 titles and no FMVPs. Even though he was the best player on the 2015 Warriors.

If you swapped Curry and Lillard from 2014 onward you could easily mount a case that the Warriors still win 3 titles but I doubt anyone thinks Curry would turn the Blazers into anything more than a 40-50 win team, and Dame isn't in any conversation for the top 50 of all time.

How is Steph not a guy you could put into any old team? He’s a game changer. His shooting ability makes life for everyone else so much easier. He’s incredibly unselfish and he’s a great scorer. This season should put to bed the stupid myth that Curry relied on Thompson etc to get all his offence.

The point about Lillard could be argued for Bird, Magic, Shaq etc when it comes to winning rings. I don’t see how that’s a negative against a player. Reality is like those guys Curry is on another level to Lillard and his game was a perfect fit turning the Warriors into a juggernaut.

Lillard is a nice scorer who has played on some decent Blazer teams. Curry is simply on another level efficiency wise, he leads all time great offences and the on and off numbers are always crazy. I’m not convinced they make the finals in 2015 or 2016 with Lillard. 2019 Curry’s game was a perfect fit for those teams and so much of what Barnes, Green, Thompson etc got offensively came from teams forcing the ball out of Steph’s hands because his shooting terrifies them. This year is a good reminder that KD robbed the basketball world of three years of god mode Curry. Sure they probably don’t make three straight finals without KD but Steph would have been Steph and they would have had a bit more depth. They would have been in the hunt for sure. I don’t think they are with Lillard.

Curry raises the Blazers as a team because he’s a superior player and forces more headaches for the defence. You can build an entire offensive system that creates easy looks for teammates just because of what Curry posses offensively.

Steph is generational offensive player. Top 10 all time in my opinion. The only arguments against him being a top 10 at the end of his career will probably be about his defence and his career arc being interrupted early.

 

[jod23]

How is Steph not a guy you could put into any old team? He’s a game changer. His shooting ability makes life for everyone else so much easier. He’s incredibly unselfish and he’s a great scorer. This season should put to bed the stupid myth that Curry relied on Thompson etc to get all his offence.

The point about Lillard could be argued for Bird, Magic, Shaq etc when it comes to winning rings. I don’t see how that’s a negative against a player. Reality is like those guys Curry is on another level to Lillard and his game was a perfect fit turning the Warriors into a juggernaut.

Lillard is a nice scorer who has played on some decent Blazer teams. Curry is simply on another level efficiency wise, he leads all time great offences and the on and off numbers are always crazy. I’m not convinced they make the finals in 2015 or 2016 with Lillard. 2019 Curry’s game was a perfect fit for those teams and so much of what Barnes, Green, Thompson etc got offensively came from teams forcing the ball out of Steph’s hands because his shooting terrifies them. This year is a good reminder that KD robbed the basketball world of three years of god mode Curry. Sure they probably don’t make three straight finals without KD but Steph would have been Steph and they would have had a bit more depth. They would have been in the hunt for sure. I don’t think they are with Lillard.

Curry raises the Blazers as a team because he’s a superior player and forces more headaches for the defence. You can build an entire offensive system that creates easy looks for teammates just because of what Curry posses offensively.

Steph is generational offensive player. Top 10 all time in my opinion. The only arguments against him being a top 10 at the end of his career will probably be about his defence and his career arc being interrupted early.

I agree with all of this except the top 10 all time. That's going to be hard for him to break into for mine.

Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Magic and Bird are locks in the top 10. That leaves 5 spots. He's not taking Wilt's spot or Bill Russell, that leaves three spots. Would you have Steph in front of Shaq, Duncan, Olajuwon? He'd have to have a second wind with the Warriors and win more championships if he's to break in I feel. Right now he's top 20 but cant see him climbing into the top 10.

The current players with top 10 potential is Durant.

 

[PP34]

I agree with all of this except the top 10 all time. That's going to be hard for him to break into for mine.

Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Magic and Bird are locks in the top 10. That leaves 5 spots. He's not taking Wilt's spot or Bill Russell, that leaves three spots. Would you have Steph in front of Shaq, Duncan, Olajuwon? He'd have to have a second wind with the Warriors and win more championships if he's to break in I feel. Right now he's top 20 but cant see him climbing into the top 10.

The current players with top 10 potential is Durant.

Top 10 offensively I meant.

Top 10 all time he would need to finish his career in a Duncan like way and make a few more finals and win a chip or two.

 

[PJays]

Curry became great very late in his career.

Didn't make his first All-NBA 1st team until the age of 27.

Only made it 3 times in his career- Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem have 10, 8 and 6. Durant has 6. Kobe 11. Oscar Robertson has 9.

So Curry needs a few more elite years, otherwise his longevity at the top will be a weakness compared to everyone in the top 10 or 12.

 

[jod23]

Top 10 offensively I meant.

Top 10 all time he would need to finish his career in a Duncan like way and make a few more finals and win a chip or two.

Offensively the way he shoots is unprecedented so he certainly has a case. A lot of great scorers in NBA history though, Jordan, Wilt, Nique, Iverson, KD, Harden, Kareem, K.Malone, Kobe, Shaq but yeah I'd have Steph top 10 somewhere.

 

[jod23]

Curry became great very late in his career.

Didn't make his first All-NBA 1st team until the age of 27.

Only made it 3 times in his career- Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem have 10, 8 and 6. Durant has 6. Kobe 11. Oscar Robertson has 9.

So Curry needs a few more elite years, otherwise his longevity at the top will be a weakness compared to everyone in the top 10 or 12.

Steph does lack a few accolades when talking all time greats.

As you say, he has just the 3 All NBA 1st team selections. Has one scoring title and one steals title and one 50-40-90 season. No defensive teams and no NBA Finals MVP's.

Of course he has the big ones, three championships and two MVPs. He's one of only 14 blokes all time to win multiple MVP's.

When you look at other guys in the top 10 Magic, Duncan and Shaq have 3 Finals MVPs, Bird, Olajuwon, Kareem, Kobe, Durant have 2. None for Steph.

All NBA 1st teams - Duncan has 10, Jordan 10, LeBron 13, Shaq 8, Olajuwon 6, Bird 9, Kareem 10, Kobe 11... three is low for Steph.

And he doesnt figure at all defensively.

Great player though and will wind up top 15 IMO but would need a massive second wind to crack the top 10.

 

[Scotland]

How is Steph not a guy you could put into any old team? He’s a game changer. His shooting ability makes life for everyone else so much easier. He’s incredibly unselfish and he’s a great scorer. This season should put to bed the stupid myth that Curry relied on Thompson etc to get all his offence.

The point about Lillard could be argued for Bird, Magic, Shaq etc when it comes to winning rings. I don’t see how that’s a negative against a player. Reality is like those guys Curry is on another level to Lillard and his game was a perfect fit turning the Warriors into a juggernaut.

Lillard is a nice scorer who has played on some decent Blazer teams. Curry is simply on another level efficiency wise, he leads all time great offences and the on and off numbers are always crazy. I’m not convinced they make the finals in 2015 or 2016 with Lillard. 2019 Curry’s game was a perfect fit for those teams and so much of what Barnes, Green, Thompson etc got offensively came from teams forcing the ball out of Steph’s hands because his shooting terrifies them. This year is a good reminder that KD robbed the basketball world of three years of god mode Curry. Sure they probably don’t make three straight finals without KD but Steph would have been Steph and they would have had a bit more depth. They would have been in the hunt for sure. I don’t think they are with Lillard.

Curry raises the Blazers as a team because he’s a superior player and forces more headaches for the defence. You can build an entire offensive system that creates easy looks for teammates just because of what Curry posses offensively.

Steph is generational offensive player. Top 10 all time in my opinion. The only arguments against him being a top 10 at the end of his career will probably be about his defence and his career arc being interrupted early.

Steph is great, but how many current teams would become contenders just by adding him to the roster? And by add I mean fit his $43m salary in, I don't mean just add him to the Nets or Lakers. Even if you could add Steph to the Nets it would be interesting to see if they could manage to score 150 and still lose some games.

The pre-KD Warriors were amazing and Steph was the #1 star, but that team wasn't just Steph plus role players. Klay, KD, Iguodala etc. complimented his skill set perfectly. The current team has a couple of guys capable of scoring 15-20+ a game, but it's not the same hence they are just holding on to 8th with Steph in NBA Live 95 mode. Steph is absolutely underappreciated because of the KD era, but having one guy scoring 30 a game often comes at the expense of other players and team success. Portland, Phoenix, Dallas, Utah all look better when they have an even spread. Washington with Beal and Wall getting 23 points a game won 49 games, Washington relying on Beal to get 30+ every game were garbage. They look better lately trying to build something with Beal and Westbrook. I hope GSW get the squad together in the next couple of years and Steph doesn't end up shooting 20 3s a game and scoring for fun a team going nowhere.

IMO as great as Steph is his size and defensive prowess limit how transformational he can be. With the right pieces (not necessarily the best pieces, just the right ones) he's amazing for a team, but I'm not taking Steph plus some scrubs over Jordan, LeBron, Kobe, KD etc. and the same scrubs. Steph vs Klay in a 3 point shootout is interesting, but if it's a close game getting down to iso plays do you want Steph or Klay going head to head?

RE: the Blazers, I don't think Curry in place of Lillard would make that much of a difference because of the make up of the rosters. Dame's running mate is CJ, another small guard not known for his defence. This year adding Covington was the first time they've had an all-defensive team cailbre player since 2004 and he's not what he once was. Having Draymond, Klay and Iggy gave the Warriors so much versatility. They still won the 2015 Finals with Steph putting up mortal numbers of 26 points a game on 38% from 3, then in 2016 they were only a Kyrie bomb away from B2B with Steph scoring 23 on 40% from 3.

Just my opinion, and Steph is still an all time great. Just not top 10 to me.

 

[PP34]

Steph is great, but how many current teams would become contenders just by adding him to the roster? And by add I mean fit his $43m salary in, I don't mean just add him to the Nets or Lakers. Even if you could add Steph to the Nets it would be interesting to see if they could manage to score 150 and still lose some games.

The pre-KD Warriors were amazing and Steph was the #1 star, but that team wasn't just Steph plus role players. Klay, KD, Iguodala etc. complimented his skill set perfectly. The current team has a couple of guys capable of scoring 15-20+ a game, but it's not the same hence they are just holding on to 8th with Steph in NBA Live 95 mode. Steph is absolutely underappreciated because of the KD era, but having one guy scoring 30 a game often comes at the expense of other players and team success. Portland, Phoenix, Dallas, Utah all look better when they have an even spread. Washington with Beal and Wall getting 23 points a game won 49 games, Washington relying on Beal to get 30+ every game were garbage. They look better lately trying to build something with Beal and Westbrook. I hope GSW get the squad together in the next couple of years and Steph doesn't end up shooting 20 3s a game and scoring for fun a team going nowhere.

IMO as great as Steph is his size and defensive prowess limit how transformational he can be. With the right pieces (not necessarily the best pieces, just the right ones) he's amazing for a team, but I'm not taking Steph plus some scrubs over Jordan, LeBron, Kobe, KD etc. and the same scrubs. Steph vs Klay in a 3 point shootout is interesting, but if it's a close game getting down to iso plays do you want Steph or Klay going head to head?

RE: the Blazers, I don't think Curry in place of Lillard would make that much of a difference because of the make up of the rosters. Dame's running mate is CJ, another small guard not known for his defence. This year adding Covington was the first time they've had an all-defensive team cailbre player since 2004 and he's not what he once was. Having Draymond, Klay and Iggy gave the Warriors so much versatility. They still won the 2015 Finals with Steph putting up mortal numbers of 26 points a game on 38% from 3, then in 2016 they were only a Kyrie bomb away from B2B with Steph scoring 23 on 40% from 3.

Just my opinion, and Steph is still an all time great. Just not top 10 to me.

Every great player has needed great players around them to win titles. Even LeBron and Jordan. So I’m not sure why that’s an argument against Steph?

Yes you are right that right now his team isn’t as good and he’s carrying the load and it’s not great for success. But I’m not sure what you’re trying to argue there? I was simply saying the myth that Curry relies on great players to get his offence can be put to bed. He’s putting up 2016 numbers with a pretty bad roster around him and offensively with him they are a top 6 offence and league worst without him. He has that much of an impact. And this is while he cops defences no other player in the league sees.

You give Steph a half decent roster and he’s going deep in the playoffs. The defence thing is completely overblown. He’s not an all NBA defender but he has never been the scrub people make him out to be. He does what’s needed out of a point guard really. Magic Johnson wasn’t a great defender and that hasn’t stopped him from being discussed as guy that would transform a team with his ability. It’s the exact same with Steph. What he does offensively is adds an enormous amount of impact. Defensively he isn’t a negative so his impact overall on a game is enormous.

That is what makes Curry better than someone like Lillard. Curry puts fear into defences that Lillard doesn’t and his off ball movement creates so many easy looks for others. The efficiency difference is quite big. The Warriors entire offence since 2015 has revolved around Curry and movement. The type of player he is generates so much great offence that the Blazers would have gone to another level offensively with Steph at the helm.

Curry isn’t top 10 right now but the Warriors could very well do a Spurs with older Duncan and compete again. Another title or two with another 4-5 years of elite play would put him over a few in the top 10 in my opinion.