Play Nice Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

[QuietB]

It's always been that way. Who can we put around LeBron to win. Kyrie and Love, Wade and Bosh, AD. Whereas it was never really we need more stars to pair with Jordan. It was just, well... we've got Jordan.

And yeah of course Pippen was there but he wasnt an active pursuit as a player that would help Jordan, he was a speculative draft pick which turned out amazing. A bit different than Pippen already being a two way All Star and trading for him or getting him in Free Agency to get Jordan over the hump.

WTF is this s**t?

Pippen is rated higher than all of Kyrie, Love, Wade, Bosch and AD on almost every list ever compiled.

 

[jod23]

Bu

WTF is this sh*t?

Pippen is rated higher than all of Kyrie, Love, Wade, Bosch and AD on almost every list ever compiled.

The point is LeBron put together his teams. Bringing big name players to make super teams. Pippem was drafted and wasnt highly touted coming out of that draft and just developed into the player he was.

Also Pippen. Just one bloke. LeBron always has two. Wade and Bosh, Kyrie and Love and now AD and another All star in Drummond.

 

[jod23]

Well that is just silly, Jordan won the MVP in 88 and didn't win the chip. Surely 'his watch' starts when he is the best player in the league? If so people definitely ate in 88 and 89. They also did in 94 and 95 (you don't just get to take a break) and they also did in 01-03.

It is just such a flawed argument though because it is different competition they faced. It is impossible to prove but i don't think Jordan is doing any better against those Frankenstein Warriors teams.

You can be the best player in the league and still have s**t teammates which is what Jordan had early on.

But it fmdoesnt work that way. Its once you win it can you be knocked off. Jordan never got knocked off. Lebron has time and time again.

 

[Slysh]

You can be the best player in the league and still have sh*t teammates which is what Jordan had early on.

But it fmdoesnt work that way. Its once you win it can you be knocked off. Jordan never got knocked off. Lebron has time and time again.

This is my point with people making excuses for Jordan but over criticizing Lebron.

Why does it start when you win? If Jordan was this unbeatable monster, why does he get a pass for not winning a chip when he was already deemed the best in the league? If you are going to start giving a pass to him because of having an inferior team we can start deep diving a lot of the Lebron finals losses.

 

[jod23]

This is my point with people making excuses for Jordan but over criticizing Lebron.

Why does it start when you win? If Jordan was this unbeatable monster, why does he get a pass for not winning a chip when he was already deemed the best in the league? If you are going to start giving a pass to him because of having an inferior team we can start deep diving a lot of the Lebron finals losses.

Thats just how it is. Once you become the best team in the league and win the chip. Can you be knocked off.

LeBron is a great player. But hes pretty far short of the GOAT.

 

[fidstar]

Warriors make pretty short work of the Bulls to be honest.

 

[jod23]

Warriors make pretty short work of the Bulls to be honest.

It's too different era's, you cant compare.

It's like saying the Bulls would make short work of the 60's Celtics who won 8 championships in a row. Well the game is completely different.

The game has evolved and that means the Bulls team isnt prepared for how the Warriors shoot.

It's a pointless task. Back in Jordan's day, the team average for three pointers attempted per game was around 6.5 attempts per game. From an entire team. Steph Curry on his own attempts 12.4 three per game.

It's just a completely different time.

The more interesting take is if you just dragged Jordan forward and replaced him onto a current roster. Surround MJ with the kind of shooters every team has today, the way the game is so soft, how easy it is to get to the line and to get And 1's, with the floor being so spread how easy it would be for him to get to the rim.

It's a really interesting exercise to think about. You'd think his scoring average would go through the roof, he'd live at the FT line. His assists would go miles up as he is doubled and just kicks it to shooters for three's. I think he could average something like 42ppg, 8rpg, 10apg. Something around there. It would be frightening.

 

[QuietB]

Bu

The point is LeBron put together his teams. Bringing big name players to make super teams. Pippem was drafted and wasnt highly touted coming out of that draft and just developed into the player he was.

Also Pippen. Just one bloke. LeBron always has two. Wade and Bosh, Kyrie and Love and now AD and another All star in Drummond.

You are blinded by your own bullshit.

Horace Grant was an all star. BJ Armstrong was an all star. Cartwright was an all star. Rodman is a hall of famer.

It is also a fact that Pippen had a better winning season without Jordan than Jordan ever had without Pippen.

Jordan needed teammates just like everyone needs teammates.

 

[jod23]

You are blinded by your own bullshit.

Horace Grant was an all star. BJ Armstrong was an all star. Cartwright was an all star. Rodman is a hall of famer.

It is also a fact that Pippen had a better winning season without Jordan than Jordan ever had without Pippen.

Jordan needed teammates just like everyone needs teammates.

Lol.

Firstly an All Star has to be an All Star in the same team as Jordan. Horace Grant was a one time All Star in 1994 while Jordan was off playing baseball. BJ Armstrong is the worst All Star possibly in history and again was a one time All Star in 1994 when Jordan was you guessed it, off playing baseball.

BJ Armstrong averaged 14ppg and 4apg that year. He had absolutely no business at the All Star game.

Rodman is a HOFer for sure but was never an All Star when playing with Jordan.

The facts are that Jordan only ever played with one other All Star and that's Pippen.

Of course Jordan needed teammates to win but he didnt need as much help as LeBron needs because Jordan was just so good.

LeBron is great, he's definitely in the conversation for the 2nd greatest player of all time. But he like everyone else comes up well short of Jordan.

 

[Slysh]

Thats just how it is. Once you become the best team in the league and win the chip. Can you be knocked off.

LeBron is a great player. But hes pretty far short of the GOAT.

But it isn't just 'how it is'.

It is not some set rule or criteria, it is just some nonsense made up to suit the argument that people want to make for Jordan. Just like 6-0 in finals means he is the GOAT, it is a really really dumb media driven narrative that has caught on among fans.

6 championships is a great argument for why he is/could be the GOAT. The fact he never lost in the finals means very little.

Hypothetically if Lebron reaches 6 rings i think making the finals 11 times or 12 times (whatever it takes) is a greater achievement. Somehow losing before the finals enhances Jordans legacy? It is rubbish.

 

[jod23]

But it isn't just 'how it is'.

It is not some set rule or criteria, it is just some nonsense made up to suit the argument that people want to make for Jordan. Just like 6-0 in finals means he is the GOAT, it is a really really dumb media driven narrative that has caught on among fans.

6 championships is a great argument for why he is/could be the GOAT. The fact he never lost in the finals means very little.

Hypothetically if Lebron reaches 6 rings i think making the finals 11 times or 12 times (whatever it takes) is a greater achievement. Somehow losing before the finals enhances Jordans legacy? It is rubbish.

The fact he never lost in the finals means little. Geez, maybe take a time out mate haha.

The reason Jordan's 6 from 6 is so impressive is that once he reached the top, he never got knocked off.

LeBron won two rings in Miami then lost for a while, then won one in Cleveland, then lost for a while, then won one in LA. Up and down. That to me doesnt scream GOAT. It means he can be beat and has been beat time after time after time.

Yes Jordan did get beat in the early part of his career, but once he finally climbed the mountain, he never lost. That's what so impressive.

Not to mention the threepeats. LeBron has never done that. It's INCREDIBLY difficult. Jordan did it twice.

For the record mate, you're obviously arguing that LeBron is the GOAT right?

 

[Slysh]

The fact he never lost in the finals means little. Geez, maybe take a time out mate haha.

The reason Jordan's 6 from 6 is so impressive is that once he reached the top, he never got knocked off.

LeBron won two rings in Miami then lost for a while, then won one in Cleveland, then lost for a while, then won one in LA. Up and down. That to me doesnt scream GOAT. It means he can be beat and has been beat time after time after time.

Yes Jordan did get beat in the early part of his career, but once he finally climbed the mountain, he never lost. That's what so impressive.

Not to mention the threepeats. LeBron has never done that. It's INCREDIBLY difficult. Jordan did it twice.

For the record mate, you're obviously arguing that LeBron is the GOAT right?

But that’s the thing though I find the logic just incredibly flawed. Hypothetically if Jordan had beaten the Pistons in 88 (his first mvp year) and made the finals but gone on to lose, his finals record would be tarnished. But that is a more impressive accomplishment isn’t it? Making it further but finishing 6-1 in finals is a greater accomplishment.

The other part is Jordan did lose, people can ignore it all they like but those Wizards years do exist. His first year back after the break? Yeah it still counts. And lastly I don’t think you get a free pass until you win a chip and then it starts counting. Lebron gets hounded for his 2011 finals meltdown, but his first championship came in 2012. Shouldn’t they be held to the same standard?

I am not strongly in one camp or the other, and am a huge Jordan fan. I just find he is also the most protected athlete in my time watching sport.

 

[QuietB]

LeBron won two rings in Miami then lost for a while, then won one in Cleveland, then lost for a while, then won one in LA. Up and down. That to me doesnt scream GOAT. It means he can be beat and has been beat time after time after time.

That statement is simply naive and pathetic.

 

[jod23]

That statement is simply naive and pathetic.

You'll need more than that. Explain why?

 

[QuietB]

You'll need more than that. Explain why?

How does LeBron beat the Spurs in 2007 when it is him against the soon to be 4 time champion Spurs?
How does LeBron win in 2015 with Kyrie and Love sitting in the stands?
How does LeBron win in 2019 with Lonzo, Hart, Kuzma and Ingram?

There are reason LeBron has not won every single year. You cannot just dismiss them.

The Spurs won 4 chips and the Warriors won 3. They are the teams that LeBron came up against and Jordan never faced anything even close to this teams. Jordan beat the washed Lakers (did not feature again until Shaq/Kobe), Trail Blazers (one off appearance), Suns (one off appearance), Supersonics (one off appearance), and the Jazz and the Jazz (the Jazz never won).

Compare that to Lebron - lost twice to the 4 time champions Spurs, lost three times to the 3 time champions Warriors, and lost when he should not have to the Mav's.

So if you accept that the Lakers were washed Jordan never, NEVER, beat a team that was good enough to win a championship. NOT ONE.

LeBron has come up against far superior teams stacked with HoF's.

Now I am not in the camp that LeBron is the GOAT - but I do not agree that Jordan is clearly ahead because he was 6-0 in the finals or because Jordan did it all himself. That is complete folly.

LeBron may not be the best player but LeBron has faced tougher opponents in the finals and Jordan has at least had an equal cast and possibly/probably a better supporting cast than LeBron throughout their respective careers.

 

[jod23]

But that’s the thing though I find the logic just incredibly flawed. Hypothetically if Jordan had beaten the Pistons in 88 (his first mvp year) and made the finals but gone on to lose, his finals record would be tarnished. But that is a more impressive accomplishment isn’t it? Making it further but finishing 6-1 in finals is a greater accomplishment.

The other part is Jordan did lose, people can ignore it all they like but those Wizards years do exist. His first year back after the break? Yeah it still counts. And lastly I don’t think you get a free pass until you win a chip and then it starts counting. Lebron gets hounded for his 2011 finals meltdown, but his first championship came in 2012. Shouldn’t they be held to the same standard?

I am not strongly in one camp or the other, and am a huge Jordan fan. I just find he is also the most protected athlete in my time watching sport.

But those are if's and but's. I get the logic that isnt it better to make the finals and lose than not make the finals at all. But I guess making the finals means you're one of the two best teams in basketball. LeBron is the best player on the court so should he be losing so many times in the finals? Other factors too like LeBron's record of making the finals gets overblown. He did it in a terrible East for the best part of a decade. He's not making the finals probably 75% of the time if he was out West.

As for Jordans first comeback, I mean I guess it counts but he hadnt picked up a basketball in two years and played just 17 games before the playoffs. He wasnt in shape and we all saw what happened when he got in shape over the summer... 72-10 and the greatest team of all time.

LeBron should get hounded for that 2011 meltdown though because Jordan never had any meltdowns. That's the difference. Even when losing to Pistons or Celtics in his early years he was still super human and doing ridiculous s**t, his team just wasnt good enough. But LeBron and the Heat were favourites, he had created his super team that was supposed to sweep all before them. He wasnt playing an opponent with previous Championship credentials as Dallas had never won a ring either and had just one superstar player compared to three. But he was terrible in that finals series.

These are the things that all add up and weigh Lebron down when people try to argue he is the GOAT.

The Wizard years are really interesting, LeBron fans try to point to those and be like he didnt win. I mean he was 39-40 years old and had just come out of retirement again after not playing for 3 years. It didnt help that his team was awful, the roster had guys like Jahidi White, Kwame Brown (who Jordan stupidly drafted so that's his own fault) Tyronne Lue, Juan Dixon, Bobby Simmons, Etan Thomas, Brendan Haywood, Larry Hughes, Christian Laettner. His first season he had only Rip Hamilton as any decent help and in his second season, Jerry Stackhouse.

Those Wizards teams were awful. The year before Jordan came back, the Wizards had the 3rd worst record in the league going 19-63. The Wizards also had the second worst defence in the entire league.

But if you actually deep dive into those Wizard years you will begin to realise just how ridiculously great Michael Jordan was.

Jordan dragged the Wizards to 26-21 record through half the season before colliding with his own teammate and tearing his meniscus, Jordan tried to play through it and played 14 more games on on reduced minute before finally pulling the plug and missed the rest of the season.

Before Jordan injured his knee he was averaging 25.1ppg, 5.3rpg, 6.2apg and 1.5spg. The scary thing was Jordan was just getting going, he'd been out of the game for 3 years remember and as the season was rolling on he picking up speed as he got back into shape.

In the 20 games before the knee injury - 27.5ppg, 5.2rpg, 6.4apg, 1.3spg on 44% shooting.

In the last 10 games before the knee injury - 29.7ppg, 6.1rpg, 6.6apg, 1.2spg on 47% shooting.

Before Jordan's injury the Wizards were on course to win 47 games and well in the playoff hunt. The best team in the East that year won 52 games and 47 wins would have given the Wizards the 4 seed. Up until that point in time. No team in NBA history had ever been a sub 20 win team and gone on to have a winning record the next season, before the knee injury the Wizards were well on their way.

Also with the Wizards at 26-21 just before the knee injury, the Wizards second best player and let's be honest, only other decent player in Rip Hamilton had missed 5 weeks of the season with a groin injury. Once Rip got back and with Rip and Jordan in the lineup together the Wizards were 15-1. So not only did Jordan take a 19 win team and have them on course for the 4 seed and 47 wins, but had Rip been healthy also and that 15-1 record with both in the lineup, considering the 1 seed in the East was just 5 wins better off, Jordan probably takes a 19 win team to the 1 seed in the East... if he doesnt hurt his knee.

Also let's not forget Jordan is a two way player, remember that the Wizards had the second worst defence in the league in the season prior to Jordan's comeback. Jordan was the only significant addition to the team that offseason and Jordan led the Wizards and turned around their defence and at 26-21 before the knee injury the Wizards had gone from the second worse defence in the league to the 6th best defence in the league.

The Wizards had a rocky start, started the season 2-9 but in the last 35 games before the knee injury they were actually the 3rd best defence in the league and in the 15-1 stretch when Hamilton and Jordan were both healthy and on the floor together the Wizards had the best defence in the entire league. In that stretch they were allowing just 86.3ppg. The Miami Heat ended the season as the best defense allowing 88.7ppg but had Rip and MJ stayed healthy the Wizards were on track to be easily the best defensive team in the entire league.

This is effect a 38/39 year old Michael Jordan had on a lottery 19 win devoid of talent Wizards team. After Jordan hurt his knee, the Wizards capitulated winning just 11 of their final 35 game and with Jordan out their defence went backwards and settled into the bottom half of NBA defences.

So now tell me again about how bad those Wizard years were or tell me again how Jordan isnt just ridiculous and quite clearly the GOAT and always will be.

 

[jod23]

How does LeBron beat the Spurs in 2007 when it is him against the soon to be 4 time champion Spurs?
How does LeBron win in 2015 with Kyrie and Love sitting in the stands?
How does LeBron win in 2019 with Lonzo, Hart, Kuzma and Ingram?

There are reason LeBron has not won every single year. You cannot just dismiss them.

LeBron had no business being in the Finals in 07 and was rightly squashed. He did get unlucky with injuries in 2015 but was never winning that series anyways and I dont know why you bring up 2019, he didnt even make the playoffs.

Yes there are reasons LeBron has not win every single year, it's because his team wasnt the best. That's obvious. That's the difference, once Jordan climbed the mountain, he made sure his team was the best every year and won titles because of that.

The Spurs won 4 chips and the Warriors won 3. They are the teams that LeBron came up against and Jordan never faced anything even close to this teams. Jordan beat the washed Lakers (did not feature again until Shaq/Kobe), Trail Blazers (one off appearance), Suns (one off appearance), Supersonics (one off appearance), and the Jazz and the Jazz (the Jazz never won).

Compare that to Lebron - lost twice to the 4 time champions Spurs, lost three times to the 3 time champions Warriors, and lost when he should not have to the Mav's.

So if you accept that the Lakers were washed Jordan never, NEVER, beat a team that was good enough to win a championship. NOT ONE.

LeBron has come up against far superior teams stacked with HoF's.

This is just a load of rubbish. Yeah the Spurs had won championships before running into LeBron and yes the Warriors did win three titles, but the Spurs won championship against LeBron twice. And the Warriors beat LeBron twice too. If LeBron and his team, oh I dont know, wins... then those teams dont have those championship and he does instead but his teams lost. What a silly argument.

Jordan played against plenty of great teams. You say Lebron lost to the Spurs who won 4 chips then dont say the Lakers won 5 chips before Jordan beat them in 1991. You're just straight wrong on the Blazers as they made the NBA Finals twice in a three year span, they lost to the Pistons in 89/90 in the Finals, then made the Western Conference Finals the next season losing to the Lakers and then made the NBA Finals again in 1992 losing to the Bulls. So not the Blazers werent just some lucky team making the Finals.

Yes the Suns only made the Finals that one year but they won 62 games and the year previous only lost to Blazers in the Conference Semi's who went on to lose to the Bulls and then in the two years following their NBA Finals appearance lost both times in game 7's to the Houston Rockets who went on to win the Championship both years. The Suns were no joke either.

The Sonics were also no fluke. They won 64 games that season and in a 5 year stretch from 93-98 they finished 1st in the Pacific Division 4 out of 5 times and the other time they finished 2nd. They won 63, 57, 64, 57 and 61 games. Seattle were no joke.

Utah made back to back NBA Finals. Utah lost in the Western Conference Finals in 92, 94 and 96 before finally making the NBA Finals in 97 and 98 both times losing to the Bulls. They won 64 and 62 games those years.

Every single one of those teams, the Lakers, I mean they had already won 5 championships, the Trailblazers, the Sonics, the Suns and the Jazz were ABSOLUTELY good enough to win a championship. They just had the unfortunate timing of running into the Bulls.

LeBron hasnt come up against far superior teams stacked with HOFers. LeBron's teams are stacked with HOFers and always have been. He's the one that started super teams. He only has himself to blame for that Golden State Warriors team. LeBron has played with future HOFers, Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, AD, Love.. he just lost to better teams. Jordan just never lost.

Now I am not in the camp that LeBron is the GOAT - but I do not agree that Jordan is clearly ahead because he was 6-0 in the finals or because Jordan did it all himself. That is complete folly.

LeBron may not be the best player but LeBron has faced tougher opponents in the finals and Jordan has at least had an equal cast and possibly/probably a better supporting cast than LeBron throughout their respective careers.

Jordan is clearly ahead and it's not just because of the 6-0 in Finals but of course that helps. There is a long list of reasons as to why MJ is clearly the GOAT. LeBron hasnt faced tougher opponesnt in the Finals, I mean he s**t the bed against the Mavs, something Jordan never did. And no Jordan never had better supporting casts than LeBron. LeBron always plays with multiple All Stars in his teams. Kyrie and Love, Wade and Bosh and even Ray Allen, AD and Drummond. Jordan had Pippen. That's it.

 

[QuietB]

LeBron had no business being in the Finals in 07 and was rightly squashed. He did get unlucky with injuries in 2015 but was never winning that series anyways and I dont know why you bring up 2019, he didnt even make the playoffs.

Yes there are reasons LeBron has not win every single year, it's because his team wasnt the best. That's obvious. That's the difference, once Jordan climbed the mountain, he made sure his team was the best every year and won titles because of that.


This is just a load of rubbish. Yeah the Spurs had won championships before running into LeBron and yes the Warriors did win three titles, but the Spurs won championship against LeBron twice. And the Warriors beat LeBron twice too. If LeBron and his team, oh I dont know, wins... then those teams dont have those championship and he does instead but his teams lost. What a silly argument.

Jordan played against plenty of great teams. You say Lebron lost to the Spurs who won 4 chips then dont say the Lakers won 5 chips before Jordan beat them in 1991. You're just straight wrong on the Blazers as they made the NBA Finals twice in a three year span, they lost to the Pistons in 89/90 in the Finals, then made the Western Conference Finals the next season losing to the Lakers and then made the NBA Finals again in 1992 losing to the Bulls. So not the Blazers werent just some lucky team making the Finals.

Yes the Suns only made the Finals that one year but they won 62 games and the year previous only lost to Blazers in the Conference Semi's who went on to lose to the Bulls and then in the two years following their NBA Finals appearance lost both times in game 7's to the Houston Rockets who went on to win the Championship both years. The Suns were no joke either.

The Sonics were also no fluke. They won 64 games that season and in a 5 year stretch from 93-98 they finished 1st in the Pacific Division 4 out of 5 times and the other time they finished 2nd. They won 63, 57, 64, 57 and 61 games. Seattle were no joke.

Utah made back to back NBA Finals. Utah lost in the Western Conference Finals in 92, 94 and 96 before finally making the NBA Finals in 97 and 98 both times losing to the Bulls. They won 64 and 62 games those years.

Every single one of those teams, the Lakers, I mean they had already won 5 championships, the Trailblazers, the Sonics, the Suns and the Jazz were ABSOLUTELY good enough to win a championship. They just had the unfortunate timing of running into the Bulls.

LeBron hasnt come up against far superior teams stacked with HOFers. LeBron's teams are stacked with HOFers and always have been. He's the one that started super teams. He only has himself to blame for that Golden State Warriors team. LeBron has played with future HOFers, Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, AD, Love.. he just lost to better teams. Jordan just never lost.


Jordan is clearly ahead and it's not just because of the 6-0 in Finals but of course that helps. There is a long list of reasons as to why MJ is clearly the GOAT. LeBron hasnt faced tougher opponesnt in the Finals, I mean he sh*t the bed against the Mavs, something Jordan never did. And no Jordan never had better supporting casts than LeBron. LeBron always plays with multiple All Stars in his teams. Kyrie and Love, Wade and Bosh and even Ray Allen, AD and Drummond. Jordan had Pippen. That's it.

I would put the finals teams Jordan beat on about par with the 2021 Miami Heat

 

[jod23]

I would put the finals teams Jordan beat on about par with the 2021 Miami Heat

Lol bro. I've just realised you are trolling me.

Well played.

Let's move on.

 

[fidstar]

It's too different era's, you cant compare.

It's like saying the Bulls would make short work of the 60's Celtics who won 8 championships in a row. Well the game is completely different.

The game has evolved and that means the Bulls team isnt prepared for how the Warriors shoot.

It's a pointless task. Back in Jordan's day, the team average for three pointers attempted per game was around 6.5 attempts per game. From an entire team. Steph Curry on his own attempts 12.4 three per game.

It's just a completely different time.

The more interesting take is if you just dragged Jordan forward and replaced him onto a current roster. Surround MJ with the kind of shooters every team has today, the way the game is so soft, how easy it is to get to the line and to get And 1's, with the floor being so spread how easy it would be for him to get to the rim.

It's a really interesting exercise to think about. You'd think his scoring average would go through the roof, he'd live at the FT line. His assists would go miles up as he is doubled and just kicks it to shooters for three's. I think he could average something like 42ppg, 8rpg, 10apg. Something around there. It would be frightening.

We've already talked about the ridiculous ideas about what you think MJ would do in today's league. Didn't you say 50ppg before?

Warriors are just better. In every position on the floor other than Shooting Guard. And in that position the Warriors still have a 5 time all-star and the second greatest shooter ever.

 

[Scotland]

Lol.

Firstly an All Star has to be an All Star in the same team as Jordan. Horace Grant was a one time All Star in 1994 while Jordan was off playing baseball. BJ Armstrong is the worst All Star possibly in history and again was a one time All Star in 1994 when Jordan was you guessed it, off playing baseball.

BJ Armstrong averaged 14ppg and 4apg that year. He had absolutely no business at the All Star game.

Rodman is a HOFer for sure but was never an All Star when playing with Jordan.

The facts are that Jordan only ever played with one other All Star and that's Pippen.

Of course Jordan needed teammates to win but he didnt need as much help as LeBron needs because Jordan was just so good.

LeBron is great, he's definitely in the conversation for the 2nd greatest player of all time. But he like everyone else comes up well short of Jordan.

Rodman was great, but he was 34 when he joined the Bulls and hadn't been an all star for 3 years. If you go back to the 2017 All Star game Melo, Millsap, Thomas, Love, Marc Gasol, Cousins, DeAndre Jordan all made it. None of those guys are transformational in 2020/21. It's only really CP3 other than LeBron of the mid 30s guys that is still a superstar.

Horace and BJ were good players but the fact that either ever made the All Star team is eyebrow raising. They were both guys who did more in great teams than elevated teams to greatness.

Anyway people can argue the quality of Pippen/BJ/Horace/Cartwright or Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc/Longley/Harper vs LeBron's teams but the strategies were totally different. Rodman was the Spurs 2nd or 3rd best player when he joined the Bulls. BJ and Horace left and become the 3rd or 4th best players at their new teams. LeBron teamed up with the franchise players of the Heat and Raptors. Then teamed up with the franchise players of the Cavs and TWolves. Then teamed up with the franchise player of the Pelicans who happened to another top 5 player.

Jordan played with:

Pippen (7 x All Star, 3 x All NBA first team)
Horace (1 x All Star)
BJ (1 x All Star)
Rodman (2 x All Star, 2 x All NBA third team)
Cartwright (1 x All Star)
Oakley (1 x All Star)

+ whoever played for the Wizards. Laettner...?

LeBron chose to play with:

Wade (13 x All Star, 2 x All NBA first team)
Bosh (11 x All Star, 1 x All NBA second team)
Kyrie (7 x All Star, 1 x All NBA second team)
Love (5 x All Star, 2 x All NBA second team)
AD (8 x All Star, 4 x All NBA first team)

+ Mo Williams, Ilgauskas, Shaq, Howard, Allen, Lewis, Korver, Deron Williams, Rondo, Dwight, Drummond, Gasol if anyone cares about them.

 

[jod23]

Rodman was great, but he was 34 when he joined the Bulls and hadn't been an all star for 3 years. If you go back to the 2017 All Star game Melo, Millsap, Thomas, Love, Marc Gasol, Cousins, DeAndre Jordan all made it. None of those guys are transformational in 2020/21. It's only really CP3 other than LeBron of the mid 30s guys that is still a superstar.

Horace and BJ were good players but the fact that either ever made the All Star team is eyebrow raising. They were both guys who did more in great teams than elevated teams to greatness.

Anyway people can argue the quality of Pippen/BJ/Horace/Cartwright or Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc/Longley/Harper vs LeBron's teams but the strategies were totally different. Rodman was the Spurs 2nd or 3rd best player when he joined the Bulls. BJ and Horace left and become the 3rd or 4th best players at their new teams. LeBron teamed up with the franchise players of the Heat and Raptors. Then teamed up with the franchise players of the Cavs and TWolves. Then teamed up with the franchise player of the Pelicans who happened to another top 5 player.

Jordan played with:

Pippen (7 x All Star, 3 x All NBA first team)
Horace (1 x All Star)
BJ (1 x All Star)
Rodman (2 x All Star, 2 x All NBA third team)
Cartwright (1 x All Star)
Oakley (1 x All Star)

+ whoever played for the Wizards. Laettner...?

LeBron chose to play with:

Wade (13 x All Star, 2 x All NBA first team)
Bosh (11 x All Star, 1 x All NBA second team)
Kyrie (7 x All Star, 1 x All NBA second team)
Love (5 x All Star, 2 x All NBA second team)
AD (8 x All Star, 4 x All NBA first team)

+ Mo Williams, Ilgauskas, Shaq, Howard, Allen, Lewis, Korver, Deron Williams, Rondo, Dwight, Drummond, Gasol if anyone cares about them.

Yep the difference is massive. Cartwright was an All Star in 1980 too, 4 years before Jordan even joined the league and 11 years before he would start for Chicago in Jordan's first threepeat.

LeBron over his career has had waaaaay more help and still is nowhere near MJ.

 

[jod23]

We've already talked about the ridiculous ideas about what you think MJ would do in today's league. Didn't you say 50ppg before?

Warriors are just better. In every position on the floor other than Shooting Guard. And in that position the Warriors still have a 5 time all-star and the second greatest shooter ever.

I think 50 might be a stretch, he'd definitely average between 40-45 IMO.

We talking about the KD Warriors right, not the 73-9 Warriors?

The KD Warriors are probably the best team talent wise ever assembled but again the game has changed. So it's like comparing the 72-10 Bulls with the Celtics who won 8 straight, the Bulls would run them out of the gym.

The Warriors would shoot too well and the Bulls dont have shooters and that the way the game is played today so even average teams today would beat great teams of the past because of the three ball.

The game has evolved massively thanks to Steph.

Jordan still the GOAT though. Cant nothing take that away.

 

[Scotland]

The Spurs won 4 chips and the Warriors won 3. They are the teams that LeBron came up against and Jordan never faced anything even close to this teams. Jordan beat the washed Lakers (did not feature again until Shaq/Kobe), Trail Blazers (one off appearance), Suns (one off appearance), Supersonics (one off appearance), and the Jazz and the Jazz (the Jazz never won).

Compare that to Lebron - lost twice to the 4 time champions Spurs, lost three times to the 3 time champions Warriors, and lost when he should not have to the Mav's.

The 5 time champion Spurs won two titles before LeBron was drafted, then 05, 07 and 14. But they never defeated the 6 time champion Bulls, so where does that leave them? The Warriors went 3-1 against the Cavs then 0-1 against the Raptors.

Until he joined the Lakers LeBron spent his whole career in the Eastern Conference which was pretty widely regarded as weak for a while. If the LeBron Cavs (2007-2010, 2015-2018) or LeBron Heat (2011-2014) played in the West in the same era, or in the East in the 90s - how many Finals series do they make? It's all a hypothetical pissing contest, but when the Cavs were getting creamed by the KD Warriors, the best teams in the East were the I.T. Celtics and Lowry/DeRozan Raptors. Each year the Cavs made it they only had to face one of the Warriors (with/without KD), Rockets, Spurs, OKC, Clippers etc. If you remove the 2015-2018 Warriors from the equation I doubt the Cavs win those 4 titles.

I think the Barkley Suns, Kemp/Payton Sonics, Malone/Stockton Jazz are underrated here. But that's not just who the Bulls beat. They had to get through the Ewing Knicks, Reggie Pacers, Shaq/Penny Magic etc.

 

[Scotland]

I think 50 might be a stretch, he'd definitely average between 40-45 IMO.

We talking about the KD Warriors right, not the 73-9 Warriors?

The KD Warriors are probably the best team talent wise ever assembled but again the game has changed. So it's like comparing the 72-10 Bulls with the Celtics who won 8 straight, the Bulls would run them out of the gym.

The Warriors would shoot too well and the Bulls dont have shooters and that the way the game is played today so even average teams today would beat great teams of the past because of the three ball.

The game has evolved massively thanks to Steph.

Jordan still the GOAT though. Cant nothing take that away.

I don't think Jordan would just waltz in and average 40+. There are different kinds of elite scorers now but since he retired only Kobe (05/06) and Harden (18/19) have averaged over 35. Jordan isn't 5-10 points a game better than Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, KD...

He would still be a superstar but the game has changed. His bread and butter was iso plays, mid range jump shots and athletic drives to the bucket. He would still be a 6'6 athlete with a length and insane vertical leap. He would still have the same insane competitiveness and would be a beast at both ends of the floor. He has all the tools to be the best player in the NBA today - minus the fact that 80s/90s era players rarely shot 3s.

He retired a career 30 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists guy who shot under two 3s a game. IMO if he came into the league today he would be coached to shoot more 3s (somewhere from 5-10 a game at 35-40% - he had 5 seasons 35%+ as a guy who wasn't a big 3 point shooter) and to pass more from the paint. Jordan drive, dish to Paxson/Kerr would happen multiple times a game. I would expect him to be more of a 30-10-10 player than a 40-45 a game scorer.

The kicker is the last guard to win DPOY was Gary Payton 25 years ago. Kawhi is a perimiter defender but still a forward. Harden, Curry, Westbrook, Lillard, Doncic... none of these guys are great defenders. Any of those guys combined with the defence of Ben Simmons would be the MVP. Which is basically what Jordan was when he played the best offensive and best defensive guard most years.