Play Nice Michael Jordan vs LeBron James

[jod23]

The old argument how Jordan never had to slay the beast like LeBron did with the 73-9 Warriors.

Yet they forget, Jordan never had to slay the beast because Jordan was the beast.

 

[fidstar]

The old argument how Jordan never had to slay the beast like LeBron did with the 73-9 Warriors.

Yet they forget, Jordan never had to slay the beast because Jordan was the beast.

Well I mean he faced the 80s beast in Boston.

 

[BEaston]

Did you read my post at all?

Jordan's failures aren't the same, hence they aren't viewed (by many, not all) the same way. Double standards is simply saying 'Jordan only 91-93 and 96-98 counts just ignore everything else but for LeBron it's everything 2003/04-2020/21'. Which is not what I'm saying. All of Jordan's failures before 1991 absolutely count, but I don't hold forming a big 3 and losing to the Mavericks on the same level as losing to the mid to late 1980s Celtics and Pistons. I'm not holding it against LeBron that his 45 win 07/08 Cavs couldn't beat the Celtics in the ECSF.

Like I said, was there ever a point in time where Jordan was the best player and didn't perform? Was he ever on the best team and they didn't win? There are no MVP seasons where Jordan averaged 17 points in the finals. There are no 60 win Jordan Bulls seasons where they didn't win the title.

If you go back to the original comment you'll see that what you're saying is not relevant. We were talking about the bit in bold. You've come in with something else.

The forming a superteam is the stupidest argument against LeBron. Is he supposed to sit around waiting for dud front offices to fix their s**t, which likely never happens? Just another example of biased argument against LeBron that actually has nothing to do with his on-court performance.

Sure, LeBron underperformed in the 11 Finals, we all know that. I don't think he had the best team that year though.... proof is in that pudding. But if that's what you've got to hang your hat on against him, while ignoring the rest of his whole career then it's not much of a discussion is it? His performance in 2011 isn't going to change so if that's the metric then it just makes any analysis or discussion very rigid.

 

[BEaston]

The old argument how Jordan never had to slay the beast like LeBron did with the 73-9 Warriors.

Yet they forget, Jordan never had to slay the beast because Jordan was the beast.

We've just heard how he lost to "beast" teams for the first part of his career.

 

[Scotland]

If you go back to the original comment you'll see that what you're saying is not relevant. We were talking about the bit in bold. You've come in with something else.

The forming a superteam is the stupidest argument against LeBron. Is he supposed to sit around waiting for dud front offices to fix their sh*t, which likely never happens? Just another example of biased argument against LeBron that actually has nothing to do with his on-court performance.

Not building a better roster around LeBron is on the Cavs front office, but if you are good enough to win 66 and 61 games your roster isn't that bad.

LeBron as MVP chose to team up with an All NBA first team guard and an All Star centre who was All NBA second team two years prior. And they were both from his conference. How do you reckon Jordan would have gone in the East against the Celtics and Pistons if he teamed up with Bird/Barkley and Patrick Ewing or Moses Malone? Or took Magic and David Robinson or Hakeem out of the West?

Plenty of people hate on LeBron for 'The Decision' but he still lost in the Finals twice in four years in Miami and Ray Allen saved his arse against the Spurs the first time. That's 100% on court.

Sure, LeBron underperformed in the 11 Finals, we all know that. I don't think he had the best team that year though.... proof is in that pudding. But if that's what you've got to hang your hat on against him, while ignoring the rest of his whole career then it's not much of a discussion is it? His performance in 2011 isn't going to change so if that's the metric then it just makes any analysis or discussion very rigid.

I'm not ignoring the rest of his career. That's just one example. If he didn't get enough help in Cleveland the first time, the Heat weren't the best team when they lost and then the Cavs 2.0 weren't the best team when they lost then that doesn't leave a whole left to look at.

 

[Slysh]

Not building a better roster around LeBron is on the Cavs front office, but if you are good enough to win 66 and 61 games your roster isn't that bad.

LeBron as MVP chose to team up with an All NBA first team guard and an All Star centre who was All NBA second team two years prior. And they were both from his conference. How do you reckon Jordan would have gone in the East against the Celtics and Pistons if he teamed up with Bird/Barkley and Patrick Ewing or Moses Malone? Or took Magic and David Robinson or Hakeem out of the West?

Plenty of people hate on LeBron for 'The Decision' but he still lost in the Finals twice in four years in Miami and Ray Allen saved his arse against the Spurs the first time. That's 100% on court.



I'm not ignoring the rest of his career. That's just one example. If he didn't get enough help in Cleveland the first time, the Heat weren't the best team when they lost and then the Cavs 2.0 weren't the best team when they lost then that doesn't leave a whole left to look at.

Ray Allen did not save his ass, this is one thing that gets trotted out a lot and i just can't cop it.

In that game he had 32/10/11 with 3 steals and a block.

Did Jordan get saved by Kerr hitting the game winner in 97 game 6?

Did Paxson save Jordan hitting the game winner in game 6 in 93 (i think?)

 

[BEaston]

Ray Allen did not save his ass, this is one thing that gets trotted out a lot and i just can't cop it.

In that game he had 32/10/11 with 3 steals and a block.

Did Jordan get saved by Kerr hitting the game winner in 97 game 6?

Did Paxson save Jordan hitting the game winner in game 6 in 93 (i think?)

Just more double standards mate.

 

[fidstar]

It is double standards, but to be fair if Paxson/Kerr miss, the series isn't over. It is if Ray misses, it is.

 

[jod23]

Ray Allen did not save his ass, this is one thing that gets trotted out a lot and i just can't cop it.

In that game he had 32/10/11 with 3 steals and a block.

Did Jordan get saved by Kerr hitting the game winner in 97 game 6?

Did Paxson save Jordan hitting the game winner in game 6 in 93 (i think?)

No Kerr didnt save Jordan and neither did Paxson. They were only game 6, the Bulls werent facing elimination. Jordan in the timeout even said to Kerr to be ready is Stockton comes across, so Jordan made the play to Kerr and Kerr hit the shot. The Paxson three was a broken play which was meant for Jordan but it all just happened. Either way, neither saved MJ because the Bulls werent in peril.

Ray Allen however, the Heat were done, facing elimination and LeBron had just missed a three, lucky for him Bosh got the rebound and kicked to Allen who backpedals and with 5 seconds left daggers a corner three to save LeBron and the Heat. They go on to win in OT and win game 7.

They are pretty different scenarios.

 

[Slysh]

No Kerr didnt save Jordan and neither did Paxson. They were only game 6, the Bulls werent facing elimination. Jordan in the timeout even said to Kerr to be ready is Stockton comes across, so Jordan made the play to Kerr and Kerr hit the shot. The Paxson three was a broken play which was meant for Jordan but it all just happened. Either way, neither saved MJ because the Bulls werent in peril.

Ray Allen however, the Heat were done, facing elimination and LeBron had just missed a three, lucky for him Bosh got the rebound and kicked to Allen who backpedals and with 5 seconds left daggers a corner three to save LeBron and the Heat. They go on to win in OT and win game 7.

They are pretty different scenarios.

I'm sorry they are not exactly the same but those 2 shots saved Jordan from going to a game 7 which is always brought up as part of his legacy and anything can happen in a one off game. Lebron is the only one that is apparently not allowed to have team mates hit shots.

Lebron was MVP of those finals, in game 6 he had a 30 point triple double which only 3 others had ever accomplished at the time in a finals game.

 

[jod23]

I'm sorry they are not exactly the same but those 2 shots saved Jordan from going to a game 7 which is always brought up as part of his legacy and anything can happen in a one off game. Lebron is the only one that is apparently not allowed to have team mates hit shots.

Lebron was MVP of those finals, in game 6 he had a 30 point triple double which only 3 others had ever accomplished at the time in a finals game.

And that's fine but it is what it is. If Kerr and Paxson miss those shots, the Bulls dont lose the championship.

If Ray Allen missed, the Heat lose the championship.

They are completely different.

By the way, you're arguing for LeBron, are you arguing that there are too many double standards etc but Jordan is still the GOAT. Or are you actually arguing that LeBron is the GOAT?

 

[Slysh]

And that's fine but it is what it is. If Kerr and Paxson miss those shots, the Bulls dont lose the championship.

If Ray Allen missed, the Heat lose the championship.

They are completely different.

By the way, you're arguing for LeBron, are you arguing that there are too many double standards etc but Jordan is still the GOAT. Or are you actually arguing that LeBron is the GOAT?

More just calling out the double standards (imo of course). Personally i really struggle to split them as what they have both achieved is truly remarkable.
Lebron is still going and by the end he may convince me he is clearly the GOAT but that remains to be seen.

Try very hard to not come across as a Jordan hater when discussing this topic because he is one of my all time favourite athletes and any criticisms of either of these two is pretty hard to find.

 

[jod23]

More just calling out the double standards (imo of course). Personally i really struggle to split them as what they have both achieved is truly remarkable.
Lebron is still going and by the end he may convince me he is clearly the GOAT but that remains to be seen.

Try very hard to not come across as a Jordan hater when discussing this topic because he is one of my all time favourite athletes and any criticisms of either of these two is pretty hard to find.

Fair enough.

I dont find it difficult to separate the two. Yes I'm a Jordan fan but I'm also a LeBron fan, he's terrific but despite all he has done there are too many negatives when it comes to his career to get him near MJ. Plus Jordan just has him covered in every stat category too, advanced stats too and has more accolades. For me it's cut and dry.

LeBron definitely in the conversation for 2nd all time though. His main competition there is probably Kareem.

 

[Slysh]

Fair enough.

I dont find it difficult to separate the two. Yes I'm a Jordan fan but I'm also a LeBron fan, he's terrific but despite all he has done there are too many negatives when it comes to his career to get him near MJ. Plus Jordan just has him covered in every stat category too, advanced stats too and has more accolades. For me it's cut and dry.

LeBron definitely in the conversation for 2nd all time though. His main competition there is probably Kareem.

You are totally entitled to have the conclusion that you do but this is just flat out wrong.

Lebron has more assists and rebounds per game.

Lebron has a better FG %

Lebron has a better 3 point %

Lebron has him covered in win shares

So yeah Jordan has him covered in some areas but it is absolutely not every stat.

 

[Scotland]

Ray Allen did not save his ass, this is one thing that gets trotted out a lot and i just can't cop it.

In that game he had 32/10/11 with 3 steals and a block.

Did Jordan get saved by Kerr hitting the game winner in 97 game 6?

Did Paxson save Jordan hitting the game winner in game 6 in 93 (i think?)

He also bricked a rushed 3 with 10 seconds to go, and Bosh got the ball out to Allen who scored from the corner. No bucket no game 6.

Why do people want to compare things that aren't similar? FWIW Jordan had 33-8-7 and 39-11-4 in those games.

Game 6 in 1993, Jordan at the half court to Pippen to Grant in the paint out to Paxson (a 45% FG and 46% 3P shooter that season) open on the 3 point line. If Paxson misses the series probably goes to game 7. Jordan put up 41-8-6 for the series and capped off the first threepeat.

Game 6 in 1997, Jordan draws 2 defenders to him and with 2 in the paint (because you know, he's Air Jordan) he found Kerr (a 53% FG and 46% 3P shooter that season) open at the free throw line. If Kerr misses the game probably goes to OT. They scored again from the inbound pass so maybe time enough for second chance points but can't bank on it. Jordan put up 32-7-6 for the series and went 5/5 in the finals.

Following year capped off the second threepeat with 45 points and the game winner in game 6. 6 finals, 6 titles, 6 MVPs, 0 game 7s.

At which point did he need saving?

Something to note, the 96-98 Bulls averaged 93, 87.8, 88 in the finals. Not LeBron specific but stats have been watered down a bit in recent years. The late 80s and early 90s were high scoring, then it was low scoring from the mid 90s to the mid 2000s and has mostly been increasing since. LeBron, KD, Kawhi have put up great numbers in recent finals series but their teams have scored 110+ a game.

 

[jod23]

You are totally entitled to have the conclusion that you do but this is just flat out wrong.

Lebron has more assists and rebounds per game.

Lebron has a better FG %

Lebron has a better 3 point %

Lebron has him covered in win shares

So yeah Jordan has him covered in some areas but it is absolutely not every stat.

More assists and rebounds per game are expected. For starters he's taller and bigger than Jordan and in today's game there are so many more shots, particularly from three point land which provides more rebounds. Assists wise, he's run the point and has done for about 10 years now. Plus you add in all the extra shooters on the floor today and it's easier to rack up big stats.

I remember when the triple double was a big achievement in the 80's and 90's. Now Westbrook has AVERAGED a triple double in three of the past four season. Those kind of stats are not worth as much as people think. Otherwise Westbrook would be winning MVP's every year.

FG% is career .504 compared to career .497 so there is nothing in that. Jordan's career FG% at Chicago was .505 too, his Wizards years dragged down Jordan's stats across the board, as all players do who have their final years. LeBron is about to enter that time where his stats will start to drop as he ages. I cant find the stats at the moment but LeBron's healthy FG% is kept that way via shooting within two feet of the rim. Layups and dunks. As he gets further away from the basket, his FG% drops dramatically. So despite LeBron having the edge, it's obvious to anyone that Jordan is actually the better shooter, by quite a distance.

LeBron does have a better career 3pt% of .327 to .345 but neither of those averages are great and Jordan played in a time when 3pt% was not important. Who know's how he would have gone if he played today, I think given his shooting form and his mentality he's be an excellent three point shooter but that's just conjecture as no one will ever really know.

As for Win Shares... well that stat is meaningless as you accumulate win shares the more you play which is why LeBron has more win shares as he has played far more games and seasons than MJ had. The more accurate stat to look at is Win Shares per 48 which Jordan is the all time leader in at .2553 with LeBron coming in 3rd at .2454.

So I cant give you win shares.

But if we're going to play fair and say yes LeBron wins for APG, RPG, FG% and 3PT%. Let's look at everything else... including advanced stats which are far more valuable than the four stats LeBron has there.

PER? Jordan is 1st all time, LeBron 2nd.
Win Share per 48? Jordan is 1st all time, LeBron is 6th.
Box Plus Minus? Jordan is 1st all time, LeBron is 2nd.
VORP? Lebron leads all time but VORP is like Win Shares, an accumulative stat. So how about VORP's best ever season?
Jordan is 1st all time for best VORP in a single season, Lebron is second. The top 10 VORP seasons of all time? Jordan has 6 to LeBrons 2 with the other two season going to David Robinson and Kevin Garnett.

So stats wise, Jordan has LeBron covered across the board, he also averages more steals per game, more blocks per game and less turnovers per game and obviously scores more PPG. Also of course Jordan is a better Free Throw shooter as well as that's one of LeBron's weaknesses.

Accolades?

Jordan has 10 scoring titles (all time record) LeBron has one.
Lebron does have one Assists title compared to Jordan's none.
Jordan has 3 steals titles compared to LeBron's none.
Jordan has 5 MVP's to LeBron's 4.
Jordan has 6 championships to LeBron's 4.
Jordan has 1 DPOY compared to LeBron's 0.
Jordan has 6 Final's MVP's compared to LeBron's 4.
Jordan has 9 All D 1st teams compared to LeBron's 5.
Jordan has 10 All NBA 1st teams compared to LeBron's 13. But both are batting the same. Jordan 10 for 15 seasons played. LeBron 13 for 18 seasons played. Could give the edge to MJ here though as one of those 15 seasons he broke his foot and basically missed the whole season.

Jordan is one of only 5 players in NBA history to win both MVP and the DPOY. The others, David Robinson, Olajuwon, Giannis and Garnett. Only players to ever do it in the same season, Jordan, Olajuwon and Giannis. Only player to ever win MVP, DPOY and lead the league in scoring in the same season but we can be here all day as Jordan holds plenty of records, as does LeBron for that matter.

End of the day, LeBron is absolutely amazing and in very few cases he beats MJ in a stat here or there but in most cases Jordan is always number one in stats and number one in accolades and that's without going into things like LeBron's meltdowns or failures or things that cant be measured like mentality etc.

Jordan is the GOAT and it's no shame to finish 2nd as the bar is set so incredibly high.

The funny thing about LeBron is that his presence makes MJ even more other worldly because LeBron is SO BLOODY GOOD. He's just unreal really and you sit here and think, nobody could ever come along and be better than LeBron James. And yet LeBron himself couldnt reach Jordan's heights. It just makes Jordan all that more unattainable, if LeBron cant catch him, who the hell possibly could?

 

[Slysh]

More assists and rebounds per game are expected. For starters he's taller and bigger than Jordan and in today's game there are so many more shots, particularly from three point land which provides more rebounds. Assists wise, he's run the point and has done for about 10 years now. Plus you add in all the extra shooters on the floor today and it's easier to rack up big stats.

I remember when the triple double was a big achievement in the 80's and 90's. Now Westbrook has AVERAGED a triple double in three of the past four season. Those kind of stats are not worth as much as people think. Otherwise Westbrook would be winning MVP's every year.

FG% is career .504 compared to career .497 so there is nothing in that. Jordan's career FG% at Chicago was .505 too, his Wizards years dragged down Jordan's stats across the board, as all players do who have their final years. LeBron is about to enter that time where his stats will start to drop as he ages. I cant find the stats at the moment but LeBron's healthy FG% is kept that way via shooting within two feet of the rim. Layups and dunks. As he gets further away from the basket, his FG% drops dramatically. So despite LeBron having the edge, it's obvious to anyone that Jordan is actually the better shooter, by quite a distance.

LeBron does have a better career 3pt% of .327 to .345 but neither of those averages are great and Jordan played in a time when 3pt% was not important. Who know's how he would have gone if he played today, I think given his shooting form and his mentality he's be an excellent three point shooter but that's just conjecture as no one will ever really know.

As for Win Shares... well that stat is meaningless as you accumulate win shares the more you play which is why LeBron has more win shares as he has played far more games and seasons than MJ had. The more accurate stat to look at is Win Shares per 48 which Jordan is the all time leader in at .2553 with LeBron coming in 3rd at .2454.

So I cant give you win shares.

But if we're going to play fair and say yes LeBron wins for APG, RPG, FG% and 3PT%. Let's look at everything else... including advanced stats which are far more valuable than the four stats LeBron has there.

PER? Jordan is 1st all time, LeBron 2nd.
Win Share per 48? Jordan is 1st all time, LeBron is 6th.
Box Plus Minus? Jordan is 1st all time, LeBron is 2nd.
VORP? Lebron leads all time but VORP is like Win Shares, an accumulative stat. So how about VORP's best ever season?
Jordan is 1st all time for best VORP in a single season, Lebron is second. The top 10 VORP seasons of all time? Jordan has 6 to LeBrons 2 with the other two season going to David Robinson and Kevin Garnett.

So stats wise, Jordan has LeBron covered across the board, he also averages more steals per game, more blocks per game and less turnovers per game and obviously scores more PPG. Also of course Jordan is a better Free Throw shooter as well as that's one of LeBron's weaknesses.

Accolades?

Jordan has 10 scoring titles (all time record) LeBron has one.
Lebron does have one Assists title compared to Jordan's none.
Jordan has 3 steals titles compared to LeBron's none.
Jordan has 5 MVP's to LeBron's 4.
Jordan has 6 championships to LeBron's 4.
Jordan has 1 DPOY compared to LeBron's 0.
Jordan has 6 Final's MVP's compared to LeBron's 4.
Jordan has 9 All D 1st teams compared to LeBron's 5.
Jordan has 10 All NBA 1st teams compared to LeBron's 13. But both are batting the same. Jordan 10 for 15 seasons played. LeBron 13 for 18 seasons played. Could give the edge to MJ here though as one of those 15 seasons he broke his foot and basically missed the whole season.

Jordan is one of only 5 players in NBA history to win both MVP and the DPOY. The others, David Robinson, Olajuwon, Giannis and Garnett. Only players to ever do it in the same season, Jordan, Olajuwon and Giannis. Only player to ever win MVP, DPOY and lead the league in scoring in the same season but we can be here all day as Jordan holds plenty of records, as does LeBron for that matter.

End of the day, LeBron is absolutely amazing and in very few cases he beats MJ in a stat here or there but in most cases Jordan is always number one in stats and number one in accolades and that's without going into things like LeBron's meltdowns or failures or things that cant be measured like mentality etc.

Jordan is the GOAT and it's no shame to finish 2nd as the bar is set so incredibly high.

The funny thing about LeBron is that his presence makes MJ even more other worldly because LeBron is SO BLOODY GOOD. He's just unreal really and you sit here and think, nobody could ever come along and be better than LeBron James. And yet LeBron himself couldnt reach Jordan's heights. It just makes Jordan all that more unattainable, if LeBron cant catch him, who the hell possibly could?

So a fair bit to break down here (very well researched and presented btw).

The first part you are basically acknowledging Lebron is better in these areas, yeah i mean him being taller probably is part of the reason he averages more boards but that is part of what makes him great. Yeah him running the point is why he averages so many assists, but that is because he is that good at doing it. He was doing things Jordan wasn't so he is better at that.

The other part i disagree with is the discounting of Lebrons longevity accolades, Lebron should not be discounted for playing more. What he is doing at his age is incredible, the number of minutes is incredible. He will almost certainly retire with the most points in NBA history and also be top 10 in assists. Jordan does not get credit for having the same amount of 1st team all NBA's because it is at the same strike rate (or better with injury) especially when Lebron was a lock to be 1st team again this year if not for injury. At the end of the day Jordan did not play as long so the extra accolades that Lebron racks up absolutely helps make his case.

More all NBA's
More All stars
More finals appearances
More points
more rebounds
more assists

 

[Scotland]

LeBron's consistency and longevity is great, but 25 PPG in 2020/21 puts you 15th in the league in scoring. Last year it got you 12th. Year before 12th again.

Jordan's maligned Wizards years he was 9th and 25th in scoring.

I don't think LeBron's longevity is discounted (his peak years are what are judged harshly). But we are talking about a league that awards the scoring title to the player with the highest scoring average for the season, as long as they play 58 games out 82. A player who wins 5 scoring titles is going to be rated more highly than one who is consistently 10th-15th each year (not applicable to LeBron, he's been top 3 a bunch of times).

When Jordan retired Kareem and Malone were already ahead of him on total points scored, and he's since been passed by Kobe and LeBron. And here we are and Jordan is still the GOAT in the eyes of most people. People don't discount Don Bradman or Greg Chappell or Brian Lara every time someone who plays more tests passes them on the run rally.

 

[jod23]

So a fair bit to break down here (very well researched and presented btw).

The first part you are basically acknowledging Lebron is better in these areas, yeah i mean him being taller probably is part of the reason he averages more boards but that is part of what makes him great. Yeah him running the point is why he averages so many assists, but that is because he is that good at doing it. He was doing things Jordan wasn't so he is better at that.

The other part i disagree with is the discounting of Lebrons longevity accolades, Lebron should not be discounted for playing more. What he is doing at his age is incredible, the number of minutes is incredible. He will almost certainly retire with the most points in NBA history and also be top 10 in assists. Jordan does not get credit for having the same amount of 1st team all NBA's because it is at the same strike rate (or better with injury) especially when Lebron was a lock to be 1st team again this year if not for injury. At the end of the day Jordan did not play as long so the extra accolades that Lebron racks up absolutely helps make his case.

More all NBA's
More All stars
More finals appearances
More points
more rebounds
more assists

View attachment 1130883

It's all relative. Just because LeBron get's more rebounds doesnt really make him a better rebounder. Ewing is a better rebounder than Muggsy Bouges but Muggsy is 5'3 and Ewing is 7'1. Rebounding should be relevant to position. Jordan as a 6'6 SG is an elite rebounder at his position. LeBron at 6'8, 240 is a PG in a PF body so he's a bit of a unicorn, but for his size, he's an elite rebounder too.

Same with assists, Jordan is elite as a passer for the SG position. LeBron elite at his PG position.

When you say LeBron was doing things Jordan wasnt isnt really true. Jordan could do those things, he just didnt because he ran the triangle and settled as the SG in that system with primary ball handling duties going to the PG and even Pippen at times.

Jordan was asked to play PG early in his career....

The Doug Collins-coached Bulls moved Michael Jordan to point guard down the stretch of the 1988-89 season, and the results were terrifying.

Jordan averaged 32.2 points, 9.4 assists and 8.3 rebounds in 41 regular-season and playoff games as the Bulls’ point guard, and that stretch included a streak of seven consecutive triple-doubles. One of those, a 33-point, 12-rebound, 11-assist performance against the Warriors in Chicago, prompted Warriors coach Don Nelson to say, “I told you so.”

“Well, they finally figured it out there,” former Bulls guard Craig Hodges recalled Nelson saying in longtime Bulls beat reporter Sam Smith’s 1992 best-selling book, “The Jordan Rules.” “I would’ve been playing him at point guard the day he showed up as a rookie.”

Jordan’s run didn’t last into the next season, as the Bulls lost to the Detroit Pistons in the Eastern Conference Finals. Chicago then fired Collins, and Phil Jackson began incorporating the Triangle offense in order to lighten Jordan’s playmaking and scoring load.

So Jordan could absolutely do what LeBron does at the PG, and even better really as he scores more. It's just that Phil Jackson turned up and Jordan sacrificed numbers for Championships.

The longevity thing is an interesting one. Yeah of course playing at such a high level for so long is great but as we saw with Jordan in his return with the Wizards, he was other worldly at 39/40 it's just that Jordan retired and he retired because of things out of his control as the Last Dance explained. Jordan grew up in a different era too. Straight out of high school was not a thing. So he played in College and didnt enter the NBA until he was 21, then lost a year with a broken foot and lost basically two years in his first retirement. If Jordan had entered the league like LeBron at 18 and didnt retire, he's be miles in front of Kareem on the all time scoring list. But it is what it is.

LeBron is fantastic and his longevity should be admired but I dont put too much stock in total stats. Totals can be skewed by how long you play. LeBron will absolutely catch Kareem and finish his career 1st all time in points and then uneducated people will think LeBron is the greatest scorer of all time which is wide of the mark. Same with Stockton and assists. Nobody can ever tell me Magic Johnson isnt the greatest passer of all time even though he sits a mammoth 5,700 odd behind Stockton.

Stockton however played 20 years in the NBA and Magic played just 12 full seasons in the NBA. But if you look at their per game stats, Magic is the all time leader in Assists Per Game at 11.2 compared to Stockton's 10.5. If you have played enough ... say 8-10 seasons in the NBA, the per game stats are where you measure player, not total stats which whilst great, just promotes longevity.

So yes by default LeBron will have more assists, more rebounds, more points, more All NBA's, more All Stars (which mean nothing by the way) and more Finals appearances which I guess is good but means nothing really if you dont win. I mean congratulations you're the first loser? Most of LeBrons amazing achievements will be because he is elite but also because of his amazing longevity which is amazing. But you have to talk about a player at their peak to really judge a player.

I dont knock D-Rose down for averaging 14 and 4 coming off the bench for the Knicks because I know there are mitigating circumstances to that. I dont judge Grant Hill on his Phoenix years where he was averaging around 11 4 and 3. I judge Rose at Chicago when he was averaging 25 8 and 4 and winning an MVP and I judge Grant Hill in Detroit when he was LeBron before Lebron and averaging 22 9 7.

Longevity is overrated and it includes a ton of luck. But good for LeBron he works incredibly hard to keep his body in top shape and he's been lucky to avoid injuries. Kobe did his achilles, so did Isiah Thomas, Magic got HIV, Jordan broke his foot and in his return with the Wizards did his knee when he was working into MVP form, Durant did his achilles, Klay has been out two years, Bird's back, Rose's knees, Grant Hill's ankles... the list goes on. Longevity doesnt mean much IMO. It's peak that should be judged.

LeBron's peak is still amazing though.

As for the 25ppg for 17 seasons. That's great I guess. Jordan didnt even play 17 seasons. But stats can be tailored to suit the argument. 25ppg isnt even considered elite. 30ppg is more your benchmark. Have a guess who holds the record for most 30ppg seasons... Jordan. He has 8. Lebron... just the two. He sits behind Jordan, Wilt, Oscar, Iverson, Dantley, West, Harden, Kobe, McAdoo, Kareem, Baylor and is tied with Curry, Durant, Beal, Wilkins, Gervin and Rick Barry.

 

[purplearmy]

Jordan, all day every day. And night.

 

[Scratchy05]

Give me LeBron personally. Can do more with less but Jordan is more effective with other stars

 

[QuietB]

Jordan, all day every day. And night.

Madonna preferred Pippen

 

[jod23]

Give me LeBron personally. Can do more with less but Jordan is more effective with other stars

Other stars? Lebron is the one that creates super teams.

 

[Zgope1]

There’s no objective answer. And I think people on either side that say there is are being d***heads or don’t know what objective means

A few years ago the answer was objectively Jordan, so it’s a credit to Lebron that it no longer is.

Any era, 10 finals and 4 championships suggests Lebron has a great case

6 chips is great for Jordan

Jordan was probably better than his peers but the sheer economics mean that he did it at an easier time to dominate. You can list all the names you want that he played against, the opponents were nowhere near as athletic and the money and data feeding opposition strategy was a fraction of what it is now. It always gets more competitive and harder to succeed. It’s called capitalism.

it is a credit to MJ he would compete in this era, just like it’s no surprise Lebron would dominate the 90s. But of course, would we have Lebron if Jordan didn’t invent that level of dominance? Doubt it.

Ultimately we’re lucky we get to have the conversation. I thank Jordan for setting a bar and Lebron for putting in a respectable crack at reaching the bar.

 

[jod23]

There’s no objective answer. And I think people on either side that say there is are being d***heads or don’t know what objective means

A few years ago the answer was objectively Jordan, so it’s a credit to Lebron that it no longer is.

Any era, 10 finals and 4 championships suggests Lebron has a great case

6 chips is great for Jordan

Jordan was probably better than his peers but the sheer economics mean that he did it at an easier time to dominate. You can list all the names you want that he played against, the opponents were nowhere near as athletic and the money and data feeding opposition strategy was a fraction of what it is now. It always gets more competitive and harder to succeed. It’s called capitalism.

it is a credit to MJ he would compete in this era, just like it’s no surprise Lebron would dominate the 90s. But of course, would we have Lebron if Jordan didn’t invent that level of dominance? Doubt it.

Ultimately we’re lucky we get to have the conversation. I thank Jordan for setting a bar and Lebron for putting in a respectable crack at reaching the bar.

I disagree. There is an answer. Jordan set the bar. LeBron hasnt reached it.

He gave it a good crack though as you said. No shame in being the second best to ever do it.