Michael Voss

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Hellgood said:
Carn. Brett Ratten, Scott Waters, Brendan McCartney and Brenton Sanderson could all be said to have failed as senior coaches. Doesn't mean they aren't outstanding candidates for assistant coaching roles. This idea that you are finished in the industry once you don't experience success as the man in charge is silly.

I've been hesitant to jump on board the Voss bashing, because it's pretty hard to make a call like that and I guess not wanting to fall into the trap of insularity as it seemed a lot of the early criticism of him was apparently based on. But something clearly isn't working in our midfield, perhaps it's not Voss' fault but at the end of the day we need a change in either our approach or the personnel. It's been a bleak start to the year and to be honest feels depressingly inevitable that we're looking at another year of mediocrity and frustration.
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They all have proven records and a proper apprenticeship as Assistant coaches and are modest enough to realise they needed to put in that work first.

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I'm obviously not a Voss fan ;), but there are plenty of people in all walks of life who can't cut it as the number 1 banana, but can be very good on the 2nd level.

Re his performance as the Power's midfield manager, this may be oversimplifying things a tad, but the game obviously starts in the middle, and it is difficult to argue the midfield's performance hasn't fallen well below expectations since his appointment.

Maybe a dominant ruckman who can regularly smash the ball into open space so a couple of Simon Black and Nigel Lappin types can run onto it would make a difference to Vossy's much criticised centre square set ups. :rolleyes:
 
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Maybe this belongs in the unpopular opinions thread but I reckon Voss has improved Ollie's stoppage work immensely since coming on board.
 

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We didn't have an A grade ruckman last year - that's the main reason our stoppage work saw us down the ladder of stoppage clearances. That was a bigger reason than Voss's poor work as a midfield manager. Blame the she'll be right attitude from our club re a possible long suspension to Ryder from CAS, our dopey coaches and recruiters for not getting insurance and Lobbe being so poor, before you say Voss can't coach our midfield group.
 
PREDAT0R said:
How many of them have proven to be good assistants, demonstrably? Brisbane didn't just repeatedly miss finals under Voss - they were bloody shocking. No, it doesn't _prove_ that he knows _nothing_ about coaching. But there's a bit of a stink. As I already admitted, it's not hard evidence. Just trying to explain why my gut says he's not much chop.
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You could be right. As soon as Voss left Brisbane they improved immensely.

:drunk:
 
To be fair after 5 rounds we ranked 18th in clearance differential and by the end of the year we'd climbed to 9th, all that time ruckman-less.

For me that was a great sign that we'd adapted and improved. I just hope the addition of Ryder hasn't made us forget what we were doing there and his inclusion allows us to just build on that base.
 
Coobk001 said:
To be fair after 5 rounds we ranked 18th in clearance differential and by the end of the year we'd climbed to 9th, all that time ruckman-less.

For me that was a great sign that we'd adapted and improved. I just hope the addition of Ryder hasn't made us forget what we were doing there and his inclusion allows us to just build on that base.
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Where did you get your stats from? This is the graphic from the 'Tsier at the end of the season I put up in the Can't Kick, can't play football thread, which shows we finished 14th.

283735_256ecd73834febf1bbc9a22d38156e75.png
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
Ah that includes finals games whereas the table in the Tiser was at the end of home and away season.
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True but there must be some other difference between the stats, because either way the difference value shown for Port is different for both tables, and there's also no way Port went down 5 spots when only 8 sides were in the finals.

I'd personally trust footy wire over the Advertiser, but would need to confirm Footywire gets their data from CD.
 
Coobk001 said:
True but there must be some other difference between the stats, because either way the difference value shown for Port is different for both tables, and there's also no way Port went down 5 spots when only 8 sides were in the finals.

I'd personally trust footy wire over the Advertiser, but would need to confirm Footywire gets their data from CD.
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The Advertiser get their stuff from CD as well, they are part of News and News run the Super Coach and all their stats stuff comes from CD. I though Footywire did some of their own stuff or was that Prowess? I noticed Port are -0.9 on footywire and -1.4 in the table, so its different.
 

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Schulzenfest said:
'We didn't have an A grade ruckman last year'
'Blame our recruiters for not having insurance'

Are you suggesting we should've brought in a second A grade ruckman in case something happened to the first A grade ruckman? Carn. There hasn't been a club running with two A grade ruckmen since Naitanui and Cox.
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I am saying we should have brought a break in case emergency ruckman and at least 1 of the 3 spots on the category B rookie list with a big strong bastard ruckman from USA, or Basketball or Volleyball or elsewhere, so that we didn't have to use Jacko the way we did, ie weaken our defence and then every second game Jacko got smashed in the ruck because he was recovering from the previous weeks big effort where he battled against the odds.

Do you reckon the phrase - you play as you train is a load bullshit? cliche drive crap? irrelevant? a useless statement? If so, then I know where you are coming from and disagree with your argument. If not, then what was the benefit of Jacko dominating Johnathon Ross and Louis Sharrad at training and putting the ball down the throats of our mids and they train playing attacking winning clearance work, and then go into games where the reality is 180 degrees difference. And we wouldn't have had to run Jacko into the ground. Ok we were unlucky with Howard's injury but he wasn't drafted to ruck and Ken said Frampton wasn't ready straight after Ryder was suspended so they knew up front we were short of resources if Ryder got a long suspension. Lobbe has a history of 4 to 8 week injures. Only 2014 season was the year he didn't get one. And 2014 we should have learnt that having only 3 ruckmen on the list leaves you open to major issues, when we rode Lobbe into the ground, missed a top 4 double chance spot and the opportunity to host a PF at AO, which would have been our best chance to pinch a flag.

I'm saying our club was/is soft headed and can't do what if scenarios, plan for the worst case, they take the she'll be right attitude, the AFL are good blokes they will give us a top up player thinking. That soft headed approach off field has filtered to the on field stuff. This is a ruthless take no prisoners industry and some ruthless thinking and actions were needed. It didn't have to be as dramatically bad as what it was last year, if they used a bit more brain power.
 
PREDAT0R said:
How many of them have proven to be good assistants, demonstrably? Brisbane didn't just repeatedly miss finals under Voss - they were bloody shocking. No, it doesn't _prove_ that he knows _nothing_ about coaching. But there's a bit of a stink. As I already admitted, it's not hard evidence. Just trying to explain why my gut says he's not much chop.
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That is just generalized nonsense!

Voss was too raw to be appointed coach, but he was growing into the job, and his last year was seeing a rapid improvement in the Lions, with them ending up a kick away from a much-deserved finals spot. I was going to a lot of their matches up here, and his improvement as a coach & connecting with the players was palpable! His sacking was a debacle to end all debacles, and destroyed everything he had gained, and almost wrecked the club!

He needs to be given another year with a full deck of cards before you blowhards kick him out of the game!
 
Up to date since the Adelaide/Brisbane game - clearance differential:

1. Gold Coast +24
2. GWS +21
3. St Kilda +18*
4. Melbourne +17
4. Richmond +17
6. Fremantle +10
7. North Melbourne +9
8. Brisbane -1
9. Adelaide -2
10. Geelong -4*
11. Port Adelaide -4*
12. Collingwood -10
13. Hawthorn -12*
14. West Coast -14
15. Sydney -15*
16. Western Bulldogs -16
17. Carlton -17
18. Essendon -20*
 
The midfield looks a hell of a lot better when you have a proper, AFL standard ruckman at your disposal!!
 
Ryder isn't AFL standard. He's AFL elite. This was, what, his fourth game under match sim conditions?

Get Gray and Wingard rotating through as the burst clearance player, Wines and Powell-Pepper rotating as the inside mid and Boak and Ebert rotating as the inside/outside hard running link option and things will be fine.

5th in clearance differential through the JLT by the way - an average of +5.
 
Every game we've played with Ryder and without Lobbe our midfield has looked fine. I'm prepared to give Voss a fresh start in 2017 now that he has a proper ruckman at his disposal and he won't be forced to accommodate a bollard for 60-70% of gametime a week.
 
Janus said:
Ryder isn't AFL standard. He's AFL elite. This was, what, his fourth game under match sim conditions?

Get Gray and Wingard rotating through as the burst clearance player, Wines and Powell-Pepper rotating as the inside mid and Boak and Ebert rotating as the inside/outside hard running link option and things will be fine.

5th in clearance differential through the JLT by the way - an average of +5.
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What about centre clearances? Oddly, our centre clearances have been our issue more than our general clearances.
 
PatientMental said:
-7 v Saints
0 v Richmond
+4 v Hawthorn.
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Funnily enough, corresponding with exactly how much time Ryder spent in ruck:

1 quarter against St Kilda = -7
1 half against Richmond = 0
3 quarters against Hawthorn = +4
 
Janus said:
Funnily enough, corresponding with exactly how much time Ryder spent in ruck:

1 quarter against St Kilda = -7
1 half against Richmond = 0
3 quarters against Hawthorn = +4
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Ha. Correlation or causation?
 
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