Mini Draft - WCE a strong contender

[eaglespremiers]

There are no assumptions being made.

We seriously lack KPD depth. Lose Brown and we are one or two injuries away from being really stretched down back.

Glass may start slowing down and even if he doesn't, is every likelihood to retire soon. Schofield can hold down a key defensive post, but he is more effective as a rebound player.
Mackenzie has played consistently this year, but has had numerous injury issues in the past.

Logic therefore dictates that we would have to be confident that we can secure an AFL ready KPD, if we are to trade Brown for a mini draft pick.

The real issue for me though, is that if we are keen and approach Brown or his management and Brown does not want to move to GWS, we risk losing him when his contract expires and we are at a disadvantage.

Maybe.
Touting Walker and O'Keefe as trade bait didn't hurt Carlton or Sydney respectively though.

 

[Play by Numbers]

Maybe.
Touting Walker and O'Keefe as trade bait didn't hurt Carlton or Sydney respectively though.

It is a big risk to take and has hurt other clubs in the past.

Generally we aren't aggressive traders. I imagine the scenario would have to be perfect for the club to actively pursue shopping a player with genuine structural value.

Every year someone floats a too good to be true "rumour" and every year some posters get their jimmies rustled when others say it is unlikely, or that the club should and will take a more considered approach.

 

[Euro Star]

The real issue for me though, is that if we are keen and approach Brown or his management and Brown does not want to move to GWS, we risk losing him when his contract expires and we are at a disadvantage.

I think it depends how the club goes about it. There's also less risk because it's not as if the club wouldn't know Brown is frustrated not getting a game.

We're not exactly shopping him around either, sounds more like GWS have approached us.

 

[eaglespremiers]

Every year someone floats a too good to be true "rumour" and every year some posters get their jimmies rustled when others say it is unlikely, or that the club should and will take a more considered approach.

Last year there was a rumour that was almost exactly the same as this.
West Coast give up a fringe player/pick for mini-draft pick.
Rumour originated here and made it's way even to some articles.
Really should take these things with a grain of salt.
Particularly as our team is still in the finals series.

 

[Play by Numbers]

I think it depends how the club goes about it. There's also less risk because it's not as if the club wouldn't know Brown is frustrated not getting a game.

We're not exactly shopping him around either, sounds more like GWS have approached us.

I am not suggesting we are.

But think about it. You are in solid form and the club has given the indication you are a valued player. Every sign points to you getting more games in the near future, playing a critical role in an important position.

The club then approaches you (at the behest of GWS) and asks if you are comfortable being traded. Not to your home state, but GWS for a draft pick (which is a possible medium to long term investment).

Very difficult to later justify that Brown is a required player and not expendable if the trade fails to go ahead. Could make it a lot easier for a Melbourne club with cash and need for a KPD to lure him home once his contract expires.

As I said earlier, I would also not put it past Gubby Allen and Sheedy to stir up trouble (say make offers that aren't genuine) and approach clubs and players, knowing that even if things do not work out in 2012, they may be out of contract and in some cases a free agent in 2013/14.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

There are no assumptions being made.

We seriously lack KPD depth. Lose Brown and we are one or two injuries away from being really stretched down back.

Glass may start slowing down and even if he doesn't, is every likelihood to retire soon. Schofield can hold down a key defensive post, but he is more effective as a rebound player.
Mackenzie has played consistently this year, but has had numerous injury issues in the past.

Logic therefore dictates that we would have to be confident that we can secure an AFL ready KPD, if we are to trade Brown for a mini draft pick.

The real issue for me though, is that if we are keen and approach Brown or his management and Brown does not want to move to GWS, we risk losing him when his contract expires and we are at a disadvantage.

Nothing but assumptions are being made in this thread.

We are talking about one year of football until we can play Hogan in the place of Brown. Who would only be coming in for Glass or Mackenzie and perhaps Schofield.

You could easily play McInnes in his stead of Brown with Mackenzie and Schofield in the team.
If we drafted Nicholas Rodda he could play potentially a defensive role on lesser forward from the start (pending the necessary endurance).
We could move Schofield into a primary KPD role and bring in another Medium.

If we go after Hogan im sure we will be aware of the risks and accept them. It's comes down to how highly we rate him.

 

[Patron]

The trade if it is actually being considered would be for Brown and our first rounder. I would do it in a heartbeat. The guaranteed chance to get one of Martin or Hogan is jizzworthy. If we did this i would just put a bit more priority on getting a KPD with our 2nd rounder. We could chase a gun mid next year there are plenty of mids in every draft.

 

[Patron]

This is so jizzworthy I believe it to be almost definitely untrue. I can't believe some would even think to be against it.

 

[Play by Numbers]

Nothing but assumptions are being made in this thread.

So you deny we lack KPD depth. Childishly delusional.

The players might as well be pokemon the way some posters think they can be upgraded, instantly developed or traded.

 

[Patron]

So you deny we lack KPD depth. Childishly delusional.

The players might as well be pokemon the way some posters think they can be upgraded, instantly developed or traded.

Pick 2 in the minidraft >>>>>>> Any possible KPD depth issues.

 

[Play by Numbers]

Pick 2 in the minidraft >>>>>>> Any possible KPD depth issues.

le sigh

Not when it could cost us games. People are such suckers and get bamboozled by ridiculous trade rumours.

"**** yeah, highly rated 17 year old on the table for a non best 10 player, where do I sign!" Don't get me wrong, Brown at the moment is on the edge of our 22 though he has plenty of value to us due to the position he plays, but if it was anybody outside of our best few players (say Priddis) there would be many posters that would be apoplectic if you suggested that the trade is unlikely/may not be in our short term interest.

Would I be comfortable with the trade, definitely. So long as we can find a mature KPD player and we are certain that all parties are genuine/willing.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

So you deny we lack KPD depth. Childishly delusional.

The players might as well be pokemon the way some posters think they can be upgraded, instantly developed or traded.

No we have KPD issues if your willing to assume all that you clearly have. That mature player will be essentially worthless in a few years and would come to be a Melbourne/ Richmond like waste of time as WCEphil said.

As for upgrading players you can't do that through a normal trade, unless they envolve picks for players and the value of that player or pick becomes more than it was at the time of the trade. Eg: Josh P Kennedy

The mini-draft isn't a normal 1-1 trade. GWS get the pick for free and can detirmine what they want in exchange for that pick. Now we don't lose a first rounder, we simply can't play that first rounder for another year and we steal a player from the depth of another draft. In essense all we are losing is Mitch Brown for Jesse Hogan.

Is that a risk i would be willing to take? Would a trade Brown for a Darling like quality KPP?

 

[Play by Numbers]

No we have KPD issues if your willing to assume all that you clearly have. That mature player will be essentially worthless in a few years and would come to be a Melbourne/ Richmond like waste of time as WCEphil said.

It is not based on assumption. 3 KPD (sans Brown) is simply not enough, especially when one is injury prone, one is primarily a rebounding flanker and the other is over 30.

Those are not assumptions, those are facts.

 

[Patron]

EH Speaks the truth

 

[Patron]

It is not based on assumption. 3 KPD (sans Brown) is simply not enough, especially when one is injury prone, one is primarily a rebounding flanker and the other is over 30.

Those are not assumptions, those are facts.

If brown did go, We would have Glass, Mackenzie and Schofield on our list next year. That has proven be enough all year bar a few games. I believe that Mcinnes could easily fill the gap in defence next year if need be IF there was a long term injury to one of those three players. We could also easily draft a KPD with our second pick this year (might take a few years to be truly ready but has cover in the form of Glass and Mcinnes)

 

[Play by Numbers]

No we have KPD issues if your willing to assume all that you clearly have. That mature player will be essentially worthless in a few years and would come to be a Melbourne/ Richmond like waste of time as WCEphil said.

It is not based on assumption. 3 KPD (sans Brown) is simply not enough, especially when one is injury prone, one is primarily a rebounding flanker and the other is over 30.

Those are not assumptions, those are facts.

As for upgrading players you can't do that through a normal trade, unless they envolve picks for players and the value of that player or pick becomes more than it was at the time of the trade. Eg: Josh P Kennedy

The mini-draft isn't a normal 1-1 trade. GWS get the pick for free and can detirmine what they want in exchange for that pick. Now we don't lose a first rounder, we simply can't play that first rounder for another year and we steal a player from the depth of another draft. In essense all we are losing is Mitch Brown for Jesse Hogan.

Is that a risk i would be willing to take? Would a trade Brown for a Darling like quality KPP?

The highlighted is completely irrelevant. There is no guarantee that GWS are interested in Brown.

It is also improbable that they are willing to trade a mini draft pick for Brown alone.

There is also no guarantee Hogan will be as good as Darling. Tomohawk dominated juniors and has only just started to deliver on potential. There are other KPD who do as a junior, that don't at senior level.

Darling dominated the u18's (far more than Hogan at the same age). He was also solid at WAFL level despite struggling with injury and not being 100% mentally committed.

Do I have an issue trading Brown, no. As long we are sure he can be covered via the draft/trading and as long as we are confident he will acquiesce to a move. There is definitely risk involved.

However I am of the belief that the rumour is bullshit. Even if GWS have approached WC, I reckon it far more likely they are just fishing.

 

[WCE_phil]

Pick 2 in the minidraft >>>>>>> Any possible KPD depth issues.

Really, last year glass talked about handing the captaincy over for this season and possibly retiring at the end of it. TBH unless we make the grand final and fall at the final hurdle i dont think he will play after next year no matter how much the club wants him to.

Just to put this into perspective for you, how often does a jack darling come along and is able to slot into a true key position slot in his second year. Even still for someone like hogan even if (absolutely ****ing unlikely) he is able to come in and be as pivotal as darling in his second season that is still 3 years from now. If we lose brown we're 1 injury away from losing our entire defensive structure. People go on about wilson or brennan or whatever. Wilson will be lucky to be on the list next year and brennan whilst i rate him isn't a key defenders arseh*le. He's too short to play it and doesn't have the talent considering his height even if people do want to bring up gibson.

Brown is the right size, build and development level to be able to play on an oppositions number 1 defender and i'd be more than willing to put money on him if given the opportunity to be better than anyone else we may possibly be able to pick up. He has his faults and he's no SOS or darren glass for that matter but he'd slot in at CHB for about half the teams in the league and play 22 games for them in a heartbeat.

This is all about the now vs the "potential" future. Martin, Hogan even Sheed are all very tantalising prospects and discounting injury or mental health issues im sure all will go on to become AFL level players. What remains however is we are in for a chance at a premiership now, We should be trying to cover weaknesses and holes in our list for the next 2 years rather than making them.

Lastly while i highly rate royal eagles opinion, particularly when it comes to juniors and also knowing that he does have some ties with the club this same issue was brought up by him last year and while the eagles were confident our potential offers for a mini draft pick were blown out of the water. If it is brown then you can guarantee it would include our first round pick for this year and if so not only are we losing out on a possible junior that first round pick could be traded for a mature best 22 player who could fill a hole now.

Just to throw some other real what if's around. Jones from saint kilda or mcginnity. With jones being on the outside with the saints and supposed issues with watters he could potentially be picked up for our second rounder. Now he's no star and he's a pretty shit kick but as a genuine lockdown player he blows all over mcginnity.

Or how about moloney? Sure he doesn't bring speed to the midfield group but he is a clearance weapon, was a B&F winner only 12 months ago and has already said he won't be at melbourne next year. Shit it won't even cost draft picks, just money.

The clubs knows what its weaknesses are and knows where we have holes. Hardened, big bodied mids are just about priority number 1. Butler's return to good form and the emergence of brennan have me thinking that a small defender isn't an issue for us now. Looking forward what areas are we weak in. KPD depth, crumbing forwards.

I know i've prattled on and this isn't directed at you patron in reality but sometimes its hard not to get sick of peoples completely unrealistic fantasies when it comes to trade week and the draft.

 

[Play by Numbers]

If brown did go, We would have Glass, Mackenzie and Schofield on our list next year. That has proven be enough all year bar a few games. I believe that Mcinnes could easily fill the gap in defence next year if need be IF there was a long term injury to one of those three players. We could also easily draft a KPD with our second pick this year (might take a few years to be truly ready but has cover in the form of Glass and Mcinnes)

EH speaks much bullshit, just like the D&T threads last year.

I strongly doubt the club would agree with you, re taking the chance on not having sufficient KPD depth. Like I said, every year we have people trying to convince themselves of the improbable and getting upset simply because someone points out their ideas are completely unrealistic.

"Pfffft who cares if we get an injury to one or more key defenders, we can just retroactively draft one in the second round, regardless of our other list management plans and they are sure to play to an acceptable degree".

How long did Glass take, he was an early pick. How long did Mackenzie take, he was a 2nd round pick, how long has Brown taken (mainly due to injury) he was a relatively early pick.

If everything was hypothetically awesome and magically worked out just the way you wanted, then yes, let us act with abandon. As I keep repeating though, I do not believe the rumour for a second and if indeed it was true I be happy if WC pursued the trade, as long as they were confident that Brown was happy to move and WC could secure a mature KPD replacement.

Fingers crossed WC should be aiming to contend for a premiership in 2013. Why would they make themselves vulnerable in an area of key strength (quality available KPP players), when a flag is possible? Brown is not brilliant, but he is brilliant cover and could be the difference in games given injury. I am sure the club would have to be very confident it could cover his loss.

 

[Talentman]

Darling dominated the u18's (far more than Hogan at the same age). He was also solid at WAFL level despite struggling with injury and not being 100% mentally committed.
.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Yeah. Care to point out all this rubbish i posted? Im one of the people that have consistently backed Brown for what it's worth.

Didn't want Leon Davis, horrible call that was.
Didn't want Medhurst.
Called Turnbridge out for a late ND/ Rookie selection.
Didn't think we needed another ruckmen.
I liked Nelson and his WAFL form has proven my point.
Knew we got shafted in the Ebert trade.

Made a horrible call on Greene. I do admit that i was very very wrong.
Didn't want Hill. No Sin and i'll make it clear i don't think he's best 22 in 2013.


It seems the only thing we disagree on numbers is the need for a mature replacement for Brown and me being sure of Hogans ability to translate his U18's form into the AFL, his mobility, utility and size make it almost a sure thing. FWIW it wouldn't be worth the risk for Martin or any other because id be relying on Hogan to play from day one, which im 100% confident he can do like Hurley and Darling.

 

[dajesmac]

RE is a reliable poster. He's certainly no bullshitter.

For me the doubt lies in whether West Coast would be up for it - I highly doubt it.

 

[Play by Numbers]

How are you not sure if serious?

Darling was a far better performed junior, this is indisputable.

He was also a consistent contributor in the WAFL as an underage player despite struggling with OP and as he has since admitted lacking a deal of motivation.

Hogan has some great attributes, but it is nothing short of historical revisionism to claim that he has achieved more or equal at the same age and we he hasn't yet had the same opportunities in the seniors (WAFL) so it is impossible to compare at that level.

 

[Talentman]

How are you not sure if serious?

Darling was a far better performed junior, this is indisputable.

He was also a consistent contributor in the WAFL as an underage player despite struggling with OP and as he has since admitted lacking a deal of motivation.

Hogan has some great attributes, but it is nothing short of historical revisionism to claim that he has achieved more or equal at the same age.

You're kidding yourself pal.

 

[Play by Numbers]

You're kidding yourself pal.

Please show me evidence of where I am wrong?

Hogan has been very good, Darling was an absolute freak. His 2009 u18 carnival was nothing short of amazing. In one game he scored the highest ever recorded CD score and people were tipping him to be the next Carey.

Hogan has some brilliant attributes, many similar to Darling and has possibly greater physical scope, but I repeat he is yet to show the same absolute dominance at junior level as Darling did in 09.

 

[Talentman]

Please show me evidence of where I am wrong?

Hogan has been very good, Darling was an absolute freak. His 2009 u18 carnival was nothing short of amazing. In one game he scored the highest ever recorded CD score and people were tipping him to be the next Carey.

Hogan has some brilliant attributes, many similar to Darling and has possibly greater physical scope, but I repeat he is yet to show the same absolute dominance at junior level as Darling did in 09.

Again, you're kidding yourself. I suggest you go and watch the boy, then you'll get an appreciation of the type of freak he is.