Minor premiers / League champions

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Saucery

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Mar 20, 2016
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It's funny where your mind wanders to in isolation.

I think there is an area of the season that just doesn't get enough attention and that is what is know as the 'minor premier'.

In the EPL the league champions title is almost as prestigious as the UCL competition that it leads too.

Isn't it about time that the AFL league champions (not the demeaning title minor premiers) were given more recognition and celebration than it currently does?

A big presentation on Brownlow night?

It's a missed opportunity to me and in this year of so many changes to tradition maybe it's time to create more currency in being the best team across the season?
 

Kwality

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The losers on GF day are more worthy of recognition than just finishing on top, 16 teams are in mothballs, the best make GF day.
 

Saucery

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The losers on GF day are more worthy of recognition than just finishing on top, 16 teams are in mothballs, the best make GF day.
Agree to disagree but when you see the elation in the EPL when teams finish the year on top I can't help but think we are missing a great opportunity to reward excellence.
 

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Saucery

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It’s simply not part of our game
The finals determine who is celebrated
So many parts of this game have been changed over time, especially the rules, number of umpires, benches, night games all week long etc etc; night grand final at the GABBA. It's just a way of paying more recognition to consistent performance. It will never replace the GF but giving more recognition to what is still a great achievement can't do any harm, can it?
 

Kwality

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Agree to disagree but when you see the elation in the EPL when teams finish the year on top I can't help but think we are missing a great opportunity to reward excellence.
We celebrate being the best, minor premiership is no cause for celebration - the AFL manufacturing arm is more into festivals, this years festival is the Grand Final, well roger that, its the bloody Grand Final & its what its all about.
 

Saucery

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We celebrate being the best, minor premiership is no cause for celebration - the AFL manufacturing arm is more into festivals, this years festival is the Grand Final, well roger that, its the bloody Grand Final & its what its all about.

As I said I agree to disagree, but who is the we you refer too? You sound like a politician. I am obviously not part of your we so you can call me them. Polemic platitudes advance this conversation little, your prejudices are duly noted.
 

Kwality

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As I said I agree to disagree, but who is the we you refer too? You sound like a politician. I am obviously not part of your we so you can call me them. Polemic platitudes advance this conversation little, your prejudices are duly noted.
If my only prejudice is a term of phrase even you could have a smile in this none to serious discussion.
We include me myself personally & the footy code that is the subject of this post.

Underlying my opinion is a very cynical position on the promotion of sport as entertainment.
 

Saucery

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If my only prejudice is a term of phrase even you could have a smile in this none to serious discussion.
We include me myself personally & the footy code that is the subject of this post.

Underlying my opinion is a very cynical position on the promotion of sport as entertainment.
It's OK agent K, I didn't really expect much good conversation on this one; just an iso brain fart really.

But you should try to be less jaded and just indulge in the freedom of thoughts that exists outside the AFL bubble/hub/zeitgeist, you deserve better.

Another thing we must agree to disagree on is that sport is not entertainment. Sport is live theater, the same story over and over but where the outcome is unknown.

quote-the-world-is-a-stage-but-the-play-is-badly-cast-oscar-wilde-31-45-91.jpg
 
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Saucery

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Minor premiers in the VFL/AFL have been awarded the McClelland Trophy since 1951.
As others have said though, it is of little significance because finals determine the overall winner.

European soccer has a different culture, different mentality and it's just the way it is.
Yes I acknowledged all that, but what exactly is the harm in better celebrating the most consistent team in a year?

To talk about cultures is absurd (especially as many Australian immigrants are from Europe).

Remember it's the UCL champion which is the highest achievement in Europe, a knock out out competition very much like the AFL finals series.

But they still show serious acknowledgment to the individual league champions.

It might be just the way it is here, but does it have to be?
 

NoobPie

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 21, 2016
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Yes I acknowledged all that, but what exactly is the harm in better celebrating the most consistent team in a year?

To talk about cultures is absurd (especially as many Australian immigrants are from Europe).

Remember it's the UCL champion which is the highest achievement in Europe, a knock out out competition very much like the AFL finals series.

But they still show serious acknowledgment to the individual league champions.

It might be just the way it is here, but does it have to be?
It is not at all absurd. To the children of immigrants from europe, the culture is finals

In Australia there is a very very long history of a process of finals games to determine the champion team by how they perform at the end of the season, where the finals system is determined by seeding from the home and away season.

It started in football and has spread across pretty much all the sporting codes including at elite and community levels.

The underlying principle is that the champion team is the team that bests the next best teams at the end of the season. There is no objective basis to claim that principle is less valid than an underlying principle that the champion team should be the most consistent good team over the season.

We are not going to, all of a sudden, start caring more about the "minor premier" (I'm pretty sure a concept borrowed from League)
 

Saucery

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It is not at all absurd. To the children of immigrants from europe, the culture is finals

In Australia there is a very very long history of a process of finals games to determine the champion team by how they perform at the end of the season, where the finals system is determined by seeding from the home and away season.

It started in football and has spread across pretty much all the sporting codes including at elite and community levels.

The underlying principle is that the champion team is the team that bests the next best teams at the end of the season. There is no objective basis to claim that principle is less valid than an underlying principle that the champion team should be the most consistent good team over the season.

We are not going to, all of a sudden, start caring more about the "minor premier" (I'm pretty sure a concept borrowed from League)
Actually I'm glad you raised this as I think I confused ethnic culture with sporting culture at the time and do retract. Though I think you have perhaps made my point when you say:

"The underlying principle is that the champion team is the team that bests the next best teams at the end of the season. There is no objective basis to claim that principle is less valid than an underlying principle that the champion team should be the most consistent good team over the season."

You have over reached though when you insinuate that I wish to see the 'minor premier' (a term I find demeaning) elevated above the finals premier, which is absurd.

I was simply saying that the acknowledgment of the team that finishes top in the home and away season should be accorded a more generous title, such as league champions, and given more kudos for that achievement. I personally think more should be made of year long consistency than is, though not at the expense of the status quo.
 

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NoobPie

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Actually I'm glad you raised this as I think I confused ethnic culture with sporting culture at the time and do retract. Though I think you have perhaps made my point when you say:

"The underlying principle is that the champion team is the team that bests the next best teams at the end of the season. There is no objective basis to claim that principle is less valid than an underlying principle that the champion team should be the most consistent good team over the season."

You have over reached though when you insinuate that I wish to see the 'minor premier' (a term I find demeaning) elevated above the finals premier, which is absurd.

I was simply saying that the acknowledgment of the team that finishes top in the home and away season should be accorded a more generous title, such as league champions, and given more kudos for that achievement. I personally think more should be made of year long consistency than is, though not at the expense of the status quo.

Fair enough, the way I wrote that could be read as me implying that was your position.

I think though even if you changed the name and tried to make it a bigger thing it will be extraordinarily difficult to change the general perception of it. It may even just put more emphasise on the teams that fail to win the premiership after finishing top
 

Saucery

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Fair enough, the way I wrote that could be read as me implying that was your position.

I think though even if you changed the name and tried to make it a bigger thing it will be extraordinarily difficult to change the general perception of it. It may even just put more emphasise on the teams that fail to win the premiership after finishing top
Perceptions change as generations do. :rainbow:

The concept is not to place more emphasis upon the team which finish top as opposed to the premiers, but to celebrate both for what they represent; endurance Vs providence. It could even open the doorway to the creation of a new title know as 'The Double', league champions and premiers.

A great sport deserves great titles.
 
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NoobPie

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Perceptions change as generations do. :rainbow:

The concept is not to place more emphasis upon the teams which finish top as opposed to the premiers, but to celebrate both for what they represent, endurance Vs providence. It could even open the doorway to the AFL creating a new title know as the 'Double', league champions and premiers.

A great sport deserves great titles.
I think it is not credible at all while we have a lopsided fixture.

More generally in Australian football I'm not sure the endurance v fortune works. Australian football is almost the opposite to soccer in that the best team on the day nearly always wins. Fortune could also describe a dream injury run through the season
 

Saucery

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I think it is not credible at all while we have a lopsided fixture.

More generally in Australian football I'm not sure the endurance v fortune works. Australian football is almost the opposite to soccer in that the best team on the day nearly always wins. Fortune could also describe a dream injury run through the season
None of it is truly credible whilst we have a lop sided fixture and half the sides play out of one state, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

It's true that AFL and AF are different but I don't get what you mean by 'the best team on the day nearly always wins'.

The best team at what? Only in AFL can a team still win whilst still missing the goal more times than not (trust me being a lions supporter I know this only too well).

You seem to think I am trying to place the league leader at the end of the home and away series above the premiers. They are both wholly different but valuable things. There is room for consistency to be celebrated far more than it is today.
 

kickazz

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I recon the McLelland Trophy, which is awarded to the "Minor Premiers" each year now, should be awarded only in years where a team finishes top after H&A and then also goes on to win the flag. Indeed, present it on the dais along with / instead of the premiership cup.

It would give it real prestige, instead of being something nobody cares about. If we arbitrarily take the AFL era to count who has won it, we'd see that out of 30 seasons, it has only been won on 9 occasions - Essendon and West Coast being the only multiple winners with 2 each, with the remainder going to Carlton, Port Adelaide, Geelong, Collingwood and Hawthorn.
 

Dubrovnik

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I agree with the majority of the opening post.

I would find whoever to be to on top of the ladder at the end of the season to be the real champions, as opposed to one game (and other finals) at the end of a long season. Make every game count.

BUT... whilst it's not an even fixture and an ridiculous style of scheduling home and away games, I will continue to see the winner of the Grand Final as the premier side of that season.
 

Gigantor

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When people compare what we do in Australia to what happens overseas, they forget that Australian Football comps are older than anything anywhere else in the world, with the exception of English soccer.
So to be honest, what happens in the rest of the world is completely irrelevant when you've been doing it for so long, and multiple generations have followed the one way, and that is: finishing top is nice, but then the real hard work starts.
 

NoobPie

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When people compare what we do in Australia to what happens overseas, they forget that Australian Football comps are older than anything anywhere else in the world, with the exception of English soccer.
So to be honest, what happens in the rest of the world is completely irrelevant when you've been doing it for so long, and multiple generations have followed the one way, and that is: finishing top is nice, but then the real hard work starts.

Exactly. One of the reasons the VFL broke away was to have stand alone finals to determine champions...in 1897.

IN Australian football you need to beat the best teams at the end of the season to be the premier. Soccer as a sport you could argue is more suited to "first past the post" due to the difficulty in scoring

There is no commandment chiseled on stone by god that the champion team in a sporting competition should be the most consistent team over a season.
 

Les Malone

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Much more kudos should be given to the 'minor' premier, it should be part of a double that clubs should seek to complete, winning the 'minor' premiership is a longer and harder process than winning the premiership

But the history of finals is interesting .....my take is the VFL as a new org sought to get one up manship on the VFA, but as we know from history the VFL was always invested in control and ultimately the destruction of its competitor the VFA.


The Victorian Football League was established at the end of 1896 by eight clubs which seceded from the Victorian Football Association, which had previously been the peak competition and administrative body for football in Victoria. As part of its arrangements, the league introduced a system of finals in its inaugural season, to be contested after the home-and-away matches by the top four teams. The new system meant that the premiership could not be decided until the final match had been played, generating greater public interest at the end of the season; by comparison, the VFA system awarded the premiership to the team with the best win-loss record across the season, with the provision for a single playoff match only if two teams were tied for first place. Additionally, it was arranged that the gate from finals matches be shared amongst all teams, guaranteeing a better dividend to the league's weaker clubs.

.............

Even if those clubs that thought the finals series was not the best idea, what club would vote against receiving more money ?.

We have been conditioned to believe that finals series are the correct way of deciding things, but the reality is that the H&A fixture regardless of how compromised it may be is the best way of deciding the most consistent team for the year.
 

Saucery

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I guess what got me thinking about this is Port Adelaide 2002/3/4. Now I know they did win in 2004 (Still haven't fixed that hole in the wall where the TV remote disappeared into the wall cavity) but imagine if they finished top 3 years in a row and that feat was never remembered outside the club.

And talking about doing the double it's actually happened a lot over time
Club​
Years in
competition​
Minor
premierships​
Minor premiers and
premiers in same year​
Most recent
minor premiership​
1897–present
17
11
1995
1897–present
17
11
2001
1897–present
19
9
2011
1897–present
9
8
1964
1897–present
14
6
2019
1925–present
9
6
2013
1908–present
9
5
2018
1897–1996
4
3
1913
1897–present
9
2
2016
1987–present
3
2
2006
1997–present
3
1
2004
 

Gigantor

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We have been conditioned to believe that finals series are the correct way of deciding things, but the reality is that the H&A fixture regardless of how compromised it may be is the best way of deciding the most consistent team for the year.
I guess you could call longevity and tradition a form of conditioning, but pinching ideas from elsewhere is simply a different form of conditioning.
Our tradition is that you have to stand up tall when it counts, that's it.
If you can't do it in the last game of the seasons, when fans' eyes are on you, then tough.
What happened during the home and away season is completely irrelevant.
I would agree that a finals system doesn't suit soccer.
Why?
Because of the nature of the game, upset results are more likely to occur than in Australian Football. That's why you get the romance of the FA cup, where it's not uncommon to see 3rd division teams win ties against 1st division teams.
In soccer you can get a situation where the only goal of the match is scored via a ricochet off an opponent's arse. I would agree you don't want to see any team win a championship in that manner.
 

Les Malone

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I guess you could call longevity and tradition a form of conditioning, but pinching ideas from elsewhere is simply a different form of conditioning.
Our tradition is that you have to stand up tall when it counts, that's it.
If you can't do it in the last game of the seasons, when fans' eyes are on you, then tough.
What happened during the home and away season is completely irrelevant.
I would agree that a finals system doesn't suit soccer.
Why?
Because of the nature of the game, upset results are more likely to occur than in Australian Football. That's why you get the romance of the FA cup, where it's not uncommon to see 3rd division teams win ties against 1st division teams.
In soccer you can get a situation where the only goal of the match is scored via a ricochet off an opponent's arse. I would agree you don't want to see any team win a championship in that manner.
Basically i am not disagreeing with anything you say, bar i think it is harder to finish top at the finish of the H&A than finish 4th.

I would think upgrading the minor premiership to become worth more than what it is, would be a win for everyone, you could truly say you were best team for the year.
 

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