Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[35Daicos]

EIGHTEENTH MISSING DOB BATCH

Raymond Paul Ross - Ess 1921. dob 2/5/1900 orig club st pauls ascot vale

The Essendon website seems to have this chap's story/name mixed up with that of another Ray Ross who played (for Richmond and St Kilda):-

http://www.essendonfc.com.au/our-club/history/past-player-profiles/past-player-profiles-r

ROSS, Raymond R.
Ray Ross played eight games in 1921 before being cleared to Richmond where he played one game in 1922.
He later returned to League football to play one game with St Kilda in 1929.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/R/Ray_Ross0.html || https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/R/Ray_Ross1.html

It should be that the Essendon player was Raymond Paul Ross, the Richmond/St Kilda player was Ray Robert Ross.

Record information
Event Birth
Event registration number 11808
Registration year 1900

Personal information
Family name ROSS
Given names Raymond Paul
Sex Male
Father's name Unknown
Mother's name Mary Alice (Ross)
Place of birth HOTHAM WEST

 

[GreyCrow]

Ancestry has a John Rosser born in 1884 (no date) in Balaclava or St Kilda, Victoria and dying in 1932 (25-02-1932) leaving a wife Mary (Bottoms her maiden name) and 5 kids, one who died as a baby.

It also has his death place as Newport, Victoria.

There were 2 John Rossers' born in 1884. This one you identified born in St Kilda to Rees and Jessie (McLennan) , this is the one who died (according to Vic BDM) in Newport

Another was born in Geelong to John and Elizabeth (Anderson)

The one who passed in 1932 had a small write up , http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article69506851 . I mention this only for what it didnt mention. If you read further down you see another small obit. This one mentions the persons sporting prowess. I would have thought the John Rosser might have had 2 words about football. I could be wrong.

 

[GreyCrow]

Harry Collier infers Ginger was from Tassie. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article23416100 This might have to go into the innacuracies thread unless a permit was granted?? A Ginger Ryan played in a Final Sep 22 1932. The same year a Ryan was representing Melbourne. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article135833586 ie Harry Collier talks about the Ryan playing for Collingwood, as noted above, to be from Tassie and a player noted as Ginger Ryan playing in Tassie in 1932. Though it seems his initial is W http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article135833590 but can we link the 2? Yet we have a Ryan in Melbournes 2nd 18 playing in a Final on September 30 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205485568 who is Harry Collier talking about then??

I also accept the possibility of many Ryans playing football, and even some playing at the same time. But I think there is a mix up somewhere or Harrys memory is poor.

Or was he born in 1912?? http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205109164 a 1933 article stating the Melbourne 2nds player Allan Ryan aged 21. There is a VIC BDM birth in Carlton 1912 of an Allan Ryan to an (unknown) and Ethel Alice Ryan but died 1913.

More investigation needed

EIGHTEENTH MISSING DOB BATCH


Alan James "Ginger" Ryan - Melb 1932-33, Coll 1934-38 dob 26/9/1909 orig club Preston (possibly died 1980) \

Might be a direction for people to go. Vic BDM have 2 marriages in the aprroximate time. One Allen James to a Dorothy Marion Seigmann in 1938. (died 1968) (she was born Port Pirie SA)

Another ( coincidentally with above story) a James Allan to an Eva Collier in 1939

 

[35Daicos]

Harry Collier infers Ginger was from Tassie. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article23416100 This might have to go into the innacuracies thread unless a permit was granted?? A Ginger Ryan played in a Final Sep 22 1932. The same year a Ryan was representing Melbourne. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article135833586 ie Harry Collier talks about the Ryan playing for Collingwood, as noted above, to be from Tassie and a player noted as Ginger Ryan playing in Tassie in 1932. Though it seems his initial is W http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article135833590 but can we link the 2? Yet we have a Ryan in Melbournes 2nd 18 playing in a Final on September 30 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205485568 who is Harry Collier talking about then??

I also accept the possibility of many Ryans playing football, and even some playing at the same time. But I think there is a mix up somewhere or Harrys memory is poor.

Or was he born in 1912?? http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205109164 a 1933 article stating the Melbourne 2nds player Allan Ryan aged 21. There is a VIC BDM birth in Carlton 1912 of an Allan Ryan to an (unknown) and Ethel Alice Ryan but died 1913.

More investigation needed



Might be a direction for people to go. Vic BDM have 2 marriages in the aprroximate time. One Allen James to a Dorothy Marion Seigmann in 1938. (died 1968) (she was born Port Pirie SA)

Another ( coincidentally with above story) a James Allan to an Eva Collier in 1939

I'm pretty sure Harry Collier would be referring to Stan Ryan, who was from North Hobart, and played for Richmond in 1929 (including in the Grand Final against Collingwood). He's clearly talking about Richmond players in that article. https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/S/Stan_Ryan.html

https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=Stan+Ryan

He joined Richmond in 1929 and was a member of the Grand Final side that year, before returning to Tasmania in 1930.

 

[35Daicos]

Or was he born in 1912?? http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205109164 a 1933 article stating the Melbourne 2nds player Allan Ryan aged 21. There is a VIC BDM birth in Carlton 1912 of an Allan Ryan to an (unknown) and Ethel Alice Ryan but died 1913.

Demonwiki seems to suggest there may have been two A. Ryan's on the scene at Melbourne around that time.

http://www.demonwiki.org/Alan+Ryan

Probably the "Allan" Ryan from the seconds shown as being injured in a game in September 1933, but he is described as '21' when the senior Ryan would have been nearly 24. A Ryan is shown as being recruited from Sale in 1932.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Ancestry has a John Rosser born in 1884 (no date) in Balaclava or St Kilda, Victoria and dying in 1932 (25-02-1932) leaving a wife Mary (Bottoms her maiden name) and 5 kids, one who died as a baby.
It also has his death place as Newport, Victoria.

Unfortunately 2 of the 3 Rosser births registered in Victoria in 1884 are "John Rosser" and I fear this is the wrong one.
The John Rosser born in St Kilda got married and had his first child (both events in Eaglehawk) in 1903.

According to http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227540769 the footballer was from a Geelong Junior side
The other John Rosser was born in Geelong (parents John Rosser & Elizabeth Anderson) so he seems like a more probable candidate.
There are Ancestry family trees with him in as well that say he died in NZ but no date of death given. Have looked at NZ BDM with no joy thus far...

 

[rbartlett]

After a discussion with 35Daicos, we want to put this one out there.

There's an Essendon player called Tom Williams who played 2 games in 1903
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Williams_(Australian_footballer,_born_1880)

Now Daics has found a permit for a T Williams from Essendon to Richmond in 1904.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10317742

a Tom Williams played for Richmond VFA from 1904 - 1906 (I've also got him playing 1898-99 but I'm willing to consider that is a different T Williams back then). https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players

So if Ess 1903 Williams is Richmond 1904 Williams - that means Ess Williams DOB and DOD are wrong and need to be Richmond's DOB (28 May 1876) and DOD (18 Sept 1938)
(Those Richmond DOB and DOD details are direct from Williams descendants)

 

[35Daicos]

After a discussion with 35Daicos, we want to put this one out there.

There's an Essendon player called Tom Williams who played 2 games in 1903
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Williams_(Australian_footballer,_born_1880)

Now Daics has found a permit for a T Williams from Essendon to Richmond in 1904.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10317742

a Tom Williams played for Richmond VFA from 1904 - 1906 (I've also got him playing 1898-99 but I'm willing to consider that is a different T Williams back then). https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players

So if Ess 1903 Williams is Richmond 1904 Williams - that means Ess Williams DOB and DOD are wrong and need to be Richmond's DOB (28 May 1876) and DOD (18 Sept 1938)
(Those Richmond DOB and DOD details are direct from Williams descendants)

The Essendon past player pages has him as having played one game in 1899 (as well as two in 1903), while the official records say he just played two games in 1903:- http://www.essendonfc.com.au/our-club/history/past-player-profiles/past-player-profiles-w

WILLIAMS, Tom

Years Played: 1899, 1903
Born: 30/04/1880
Died: 1/07/1950
Games: 3
Goals: 0

Previous Clubs: West Perth (WA)

Tom Williams played only three games for Essendon: Round 7, 1899 against Collingwood (loss), and Rounds 1 and 2, 1903, against Fitzroy (loss) and St Kilda (draw).

 

[35Daicos]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9814603 (2 May 1903)

T. Williams, West Perth, to Essendon; (Permit)

There was a Williams playing for West Perth in 1898 and 1899. If this was the player who went to Essendon in 1903 then it obviously couldn't have been the Tom Williams who played for Richmond in those couple of years. Very common name though of course.

 

[the croucher]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9814603 (2 May 1903)

T. Williams, West Perth, to Essendon; (Permit)

There was a Williams playing for West Perth in 1898 and 1899. If this was the player who went to Essendon in 1903 then it obviously couldn't have been the Tom Williams who played for Richmond in those couple of years. Very common name though of course.

At the end of June 1901 there is this ref from a match report for South Fremantle v West Perth
"West again had the services of Cullen, and Williams, a Bendigo man, stripped; Cleland and Smith were away."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/32719701

 

[GreyCrow]

13 May 1899 Tom Williams is ruck for Richmond v Prahran. We know his name is Tom as the article names him as such. He is also named in the Ruck position.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165218535

The use of 'Sconnie'' as a nickname for Williams is noted http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108831853 in this match Richmond 1905

Sconnie and Tom Watson http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93807367 Richmond Guardian Watdon and Williams played together in the above 1899 match

Young Sconny a bit of a larrikin http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article193460912 actually quite a bad egg http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196003146 though he must have been awfully young? Or a different one. From 1880 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article59577280 it must be a nickname used or adopted by the latter Williams as an idol thing.

Williams the Bendigo Lily was in WA in July 1906 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article57235064

I pass this on in the hope it clarifies and not confuses

 

[the croucher]

The Essendon website seems to have this chap's story/name mixed up with that of another Ray Ross who played (for Richmond and St Kilda):-

http://www.essendonfc.com.au/our-club/history/past-player-profiles/past-player-profiles-r

ROSS, Raymond R.
Ray Ross played eight games in 1921 before being cleared to Richmond where he played one game in 1922.
He later returned to League football to play one game with St Kilda in 1929.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/R/Ray_Ross0.html || https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/R/Ray_Ross1.html

It should be that the Essendon player was Raymond Paul Ross, the Richmond/St Kilda player was Ray Robert Ross.

Record information
Event Birth
Event registration number 11808
Registration year 1900

Personal information
Family name ROSS
Given names Raymond Paul
Sex Male
Father's name Unknown
Mother's name Mary Alice (Ross)
Place of birth HOTHAM WEST

Some information as per the Sporting Globe Wednesday 20 Sept 1922 in a set of snippets commenting on matches played on Saturday 16 Sept including the Richmond v St Kilda game when a player named Ross debuted for Richmond:
"..Richmond tried out three recruits against St Kilda. They were Stewart, who hails from Kurumburra,
and Clark and Ross, from Broadford way. .."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184798978

Via copies of electoral roll available on Ancestry I notice that in 1927 a Raymond Robert Ross is listed with address Pinnager Street, Broadford,[occupation] butcher.

I agree with you that Essendon have mixed up two separate players and I'll get in touch with the club and ask staff to amend that record on the past players page.

 

[35Daicos]

Some information as per the Sporting Globe Wednesday 20 Sept 1922 in a set of snippets commenting on matches played on Saturday 16 Sept including the Richmond v St Kilda game when a player named Ross debuted for Richmond:
"..Richmond tried out three recruits against St Kilda. They were Stewart, who hails from Kurumburra,
and Clark and Ross, from Broadford way. .."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184798978

Via copies of electoral roll available on Ancestry I notice that in 1927 a Raymond Robert Ross is listed with address Pinnager Street, Broadford,[occupation] butcher.

I agree with you that Essendon have mixed up two separate players and I'll get in touch with the club and ask staff to amend that record on the past players page.

Thanks for that. You could also mention the discrepancy between what they and the official records have for Tom Williams. Essendon has him playing a game in 1899. Official records don't agree. Essendon has him as coming from West Perth. His permit (posted above) from that club was given May 1903.

 

[GreyCrow]

Twelfth batch of DOD players

William "Billy" Francis Roy Leahy (Foots 1934-1936) ((b: 7/3/1911 ) (Orig club Coburg)

Finally found his mother , which might further a clue for Bill . http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article71777074 Louise ( Green on BDM) Jan 15 1957 in Bulawayo South Africa. No mention of Bill, only husband and sisters and brother. Of these the Brother died in 1945 and no mention of Bill. Alice Mason (sister died 1958 so no notice to see)

But its a direction

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

EIGHTEENTH MISSING DOB BATCH
Ted P. Ryan - Footscray 1945. dob 14/6/1925 orig club Oakleigh (unsure of middle name)

Wikipedia has him as Edward A. Ryan - and this seems to be confirmed in http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article224479049 (the links on Wiki page clearly trace the Ted Ryan of Oakleigh to being coach of Mortlake in 1951).
Based on this, looking at Ancestry electoral rolls it seems likely he was Edward Alan Ryan.

There seems to be only one Edward Alan Ryan who ever has records in Victoria and he died on 22 Nov 2003 according to probate records.
Billiongraves also has an image of his tombstone https://billiongraves.com/grave/Edward-Alan-Ryan/21809173 - the only difference being DOB is indicated as 14/6/1926.
Seems likely to be our man - query if AFL DOB is wrong or if grave is wrong?

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

EIGHTEENTH MISSING DOB BATCH
Edward "Ed" John Ryan - Fitz 1926. dob 19/8/1902 orig club Sale

Several Ancestry trees (including some from direct descendents) have him as dying on 29 Dec 1975 in Berrigan, NSW
Can't find conclusive proof that this Edward John Ryan was born on 19 Aug 1902 but this is the birthdate in family trees...

Birth was registered in 1903 in Wood's Point, Victoria
Given names Edwd Jno
Father's name Jas Wm
Mother's name Elizth (Condray)
Reg. year 1903
Reg. no 7215

Death was registered in 1976 in NSW BDM
Name RYAN EDWARD JOHN
Reg. 2377/1976
Father's name JAMES WILLIAM
Mother's name ELIZABETH

Link to death notice in SMH:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=GdwzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xuYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=589,7773268

 

[rbartlett]

NINETEENTH BATCH
*Haydn Charles William Sharp (Foots 1939) dob 20/10/1920, orig club Parkside. WW2 RAN "Hayden in WW2 N/R"
*Raymond Alfred Shearer (Melb 1942) dob 16/9/1924 orig club Donald. WW2 RAAF 'Second cousin of Wally (Foots)'
James "Jim" William Smith (Sth 1906) dob 11/2/1887 orig club Marylebone
*Mervyn "Merv" Davis Smith (Fitz 1946-1948) dob 25/12/1924 orig club Collingwood Juniors
*Stanley Vincent Smith (Coll 1947-50) dob 17/4/1925 orig club Collingwood Juniors "Brother of Ron A."

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Unfortunately 2 of the 3 Rosser births registered in Victoria in 1884 are "John Rosser" and I fear this is the wrong one.
The John Rosser born in St Kilda got married and had his first child (both events in Eaglehawk) in 1903.

According to http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article227540769 the footballer was from a Geelong Junior side
The other John Rosser was born in Geelong (parents John Rosser & Elizabeth Anderson) so he seems like a more probable candidate.
There are Ancestry family trees with him in as well that say he died in NZ but no date of death given. Have looked at NZ BDM with no joy thus far...

Have had a deeper look at John Rosser b 1884 (the Geelong born one)
Parents from birth record were John Rosser and Elizabeth Anderson

They had six children (Sarah, Isabella, Elizabeth, John, Tulip (a boy!), Emma)

Their relationship was not happy http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article149011127
and did not end well - http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article149915560

The Frederick Price referred to in the second article later becomes step-parent (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article213872882) to existing children and father of at least one other child. (Mary)

Now Jack's brother Tulip is easy to trace because of his name – he fought in WW1 and WW2 and got married – all as Tulip Ross.
That got me thinking maybe Jack Rosser also may have become Jack Ross.

From Vic BDM we have the following candidate:
Name: John Ross
Birth Year: abt 1885
Age: 60
Death Place: Mount Park, Victoria
Father's name: John Ross
Mother's name: Eliz Anderson
Registration Year: 1945
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration Number: 2767

I haven’t been able to find anything on Trove to verify/validate this – but throw this out as a candidate for consideration/further analysis

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

NINETEENTH BATCH
*Raymond Alfred Shearer (Melb 1942) dob 16/9/1924 orig club Donald. WW2 RAAF 'Second cousin of Wally (Foots)'
"

Public servant, moved to Canberra and Trove gives us http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article110637409
Died 9 May 1975

 

[the croucher]

NINETEENTH BATCH
<snip>
*Mervyn "Merv" Davis Smith (Fitz 1946-1948) dob 25/12/1924 orig club Collingwood Juniors
<snip>

There is an entry online for a Mervyn Davies [not Davis] Smith being buried at Fawkner Cemetery, Melbourne on 18 October 1977.
A check of Vic BDMs has a death record #24812 for that person showing him as aged 52, and born in Abbotsford district.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

There is an entry online for a Mervyn Davies [not Davis] Smith being buried at Fawkner Cemetery, Melbourne on 18 October 1977.
A check of Vic BDMs has a death record #24812 for that person showing him as aged 52, and born in Abbotsford district.

I reckon this is him - there is absolutely nothing on Ancestry from Australia that matches "Mervyn Davis Smith" but Mervyn Davies Smith first appears in electoral rolls in 1949 in Abbotsford and dies in Coburg

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

NINETEENTH BATCH
*Haydn Charles William Sharp (Foots 1939) dob 20/10/1920, orig club Parkside. WW2 RAN "Hayden in WW2 N/R"

He married a Violet May and they lived in the same house in Eleanor St Footscray from 1949 until at least 1980
I found her grave at Altona Cemetery (http://www.gmct.com.au/deceased-search/) and then found:
Surname Given Names Date of Death Cemetery Service Type Service Date
SHARP Hyden William 18/09/1998 Altona Memorial Park Cremation 23/09/1998

Looks like a typo in the name and could well be him....

 

[rbartlett]

TWENTIETH BATCH

*George "Bill" Wilmot Stamps - StKilda 1947. dob 22/8/1921. orig club: malvern amateurs
Stephen "Steve" Roy Stevens - StKilda 1920. dob 5/2/1903 orig club StKilda Juniors.
Horace "Horrie" Stewart - Ess 1898. dob29/5.1871 orig club: Launceston
Joseph "Joe" Sullivan - Carlton 1900-03. dob 01/02/1877 orig club : Rutherglen. Died 1935. Death as O'Sullivan ?
James "Jim" Scott Sutherland. Sth 1924. dob 10/5/1900 Orig club: Leopold (Possibly found -see later posts)

 

[GreyCrow]

TWENTIETH BATCH

*George "Bill" Wilmot Stamps - StKilda 1947. dob 22/8/1921. orig club: malvern amateurs

A wikipedia page says 2007 in WA , confirmed by burial record


STAMPS GEORGE WILMOT 86 years 2007 BULLCREEK

 

[GreyCrow]

TWENTIETH BATCH

Stephen "Steve" Roy Stevens - StKilda 1920. dob 5/2/1903 orig club StKilda Juniors.

NO NOT Goal Square faller. http://aflua.com.au/obituaries/steve-stevens-oam/ Steve Stevens had an extensive career but was born in 1915. So dont get mixed up like I nearly did


But a further search turned up this. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Stevens-12570 saying he passed in 1990. Second hand source