Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

Discussion in 'Footy History' started by rbartlett, Aug 2, 2017.

Put it out there
  1. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    Yes, Violet is his mother. Interesting that her death notice also spells his name as Hyden
    https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=zZVVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GpcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1667,5823561
     

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  2. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Senior List

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    Have tracked down Ted's son Geoff and called him and had a good chat (he is still a Carlton fan/member)
    He gave me Ted Brewis's death details:
    Date of death: 4 October 1994
    Location: Ipswich, Queensland
     
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  3. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    Nice work. I'll pass that onto Stephen R
     
  4. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    Okay everyone - Stephen R has replied to our most recent email listing the final lots of guys we've tracked down.
    So firstly, here is Stephen R's length response concerning Neeson/Briggs

    "I hate him - probably just as much as that Percy McRae did, when Neeson/Briggs cuckolded him. Because Russell checked with BDM and the correct d-o-b IS June 15, 1914. You wonder, did he genuinely believe he was born on the 5th, or was he already muddying the waters then - as he was going to do, over and over, from the early '50s onwards, and make it a nightmare for us trying to find his death.
    Either way, it's a shocker! Because, like your guy who said,
    Rhett - can you please make sure this gets mentioned to the AFL guys, . . .
    everyone else who sees the military record, and sees the 5th, will be saying -
    There's another one the AFL have stuffed up!
    We can't win!

    (And that's apart from having spent SO MUCH time on his death and, as you know - turning up zilch!)
    I also emailed the WAFL historian, Greg Wardell-Johnson; and spoke to Norman Neeson, NM player of the '50s (tracked him down to Qld) - they know nothing.

    And, like a fool, I even emailed New Norcia!
    Did you see their website, Rhett! :
    "You won't believe what lies behind the locked doors of our buildings . . . "

    (including - haha!! - the date-of-death of Alfred Briggs!)

    I just asked, if the name of Milton Kenneth Briggs, rang a bell with anyone. I didn't even get a response! (And at the back of my mind, Rhett, I thought: what about the wife, Beverley? Aren't these guys supposed to be celibate? - haha!!)

    Although New Norcia gave me nausea; yes, I suppose I can see the humorous side to it:
    Alfred was a devil; and Milton was a saint!

    Maybe it's time to permanently consign this one to the Too Hard Basket - what do you reckon?

    I'm just so pissed off that - no matter how bad he was in life! - he couldn't have just had a 'normal' death, and been in Karrakatta. What's his problem!!
    If he actually is there - as say, Alfred Milton (different surname) - I'll never forgive him!! "
     
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  5. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    20171119_170153.jpg 20171119_171032.jpg And now here are Stephen R responses regarding the final list we sent him of names.
    Note that, with thanks to WHL, back on POST 1 of this thread, he has created a table showcasing all the names and the status of them of which I have updated Stephen's info.


    - O'Brien
    OK - we'll note the d-o-d, but, weird, as you say, the discharge is after!! Yet it's DEFINITELY the right bloke! I wonder what Barb Cullen will make of that! I'm pretty sure she's never had a military scenario like that before!!

    - Richardson
    OK - died 12-12-65 in Qld.

    - Richards
    Thanks again for this correction. (And as I mentioned before: lucky you got that In Memoriam - confirms 9-4-30.)
    Russell has now got the d-o-b for Lachlan Adrian Russel Richards - born 21-12-1900.

    - Anderson
    Yep - no middle name. I'd say this bloke you've found is definitely the right one. Got the exact date from Karrakatta.

    - Rosser
    Yes, I vividly remember - when doing this - seeing the 2 b. in 1884, and thinking it had to be the Geel birth (because of where recruited from); and frustrated because I could see the death of the other one (in '32) but not him!
    But the way you nutted it out, thru Tulip, etc., shows that the John Ross death of 1945 is definitely the right one.
    Russell has now got that date - died 21-2-45. So he is, after all, in the Greater Met Cem Trust, the Preston cemetery service one of 23-2-45. (despite that odd 30-12-1899 b and d notation (that applies to someone else too, you would have seen - the 19-8-54 one) ) Maybe that's linked to him, in some way - being an 'unknown'; because, like you implied, he didn't seem to have any Age or Argus d/n's. Bit strange.
    Oh well! - the main thing is we've got the date now.

    - Leahy
    No further info here.

    - Ryan Ted P.
    OK! - I was never happy with that middle initial of just 'P.'
    Yes, we'll go with Edward Alan and the 14-6-26, cos those hand-written d-o-b's we've got, for players from the '40s, from the ABC records, are so often a year out. The 14-6 date, I'm sure, indicates it's the right bloke.

    - Ryan Edward John
    OK for me - I don't have a problem with the 19-8-02, from that reg. no. - earlyish in '03. (many similar cases)

    - Smith
    Yes, the Geel. one is the right one! Sorry, no d-o-d (but, for the other J.W.Smith!) Aren't we unlucky! - just like the scenario of the 2 John Rossers.

    - Stamps
    OK

    - Stevens
    OK - I got 22-6-90 from gsv, so thanks!

    - Sullivan
    Steve Williamson loves you!
    He's been seeking this one for yonks!
    We'll probably have to leave him as Sullivan, as a player - with a footnote; also known as O'Sullivan. (Col says that's OK.)

    - Sutherland
    Not sure about this one!
    re that: Maybe his father needs to be in the . . .
    Isn't that OK? - that the father - who was also James Scott Sutherland - played for Foots, in late 19th century, well before VFL?
    Anyway, it doesn't help that the father and son, are both James Scott Sutherland.
    Another worry is that the son, who is recorded as James Scott Sutherland jnr., doesn't seem to be in the Electoral Rolls after 1931
    (when he is recorded as a boilermaker in Melb Ports/ Newport.)
    I'm not sure about the Scottish Piper scenario (noted that those refs. 2 from 1934, and the one from '39, are both WA, aren't they?)
    I hope that's the case, but not sure - what do you think, Rhett?
    Noted about the death; the died in Helena Valley, WA on 27-3-80 (from Karrakatta).
    Yes, age, 80 - is a good match.
    But (you would have noted) from WA Births, there is a James Duncan Sutherland, b. 1900
    He could be the guy, dying in 1980.
    Frustratingly, the 1980 guy's death doesn't seem to have a middle name recorded.
    See attachments - this was the 27-3-80 guy, from his d/n's in The West Australian. Any clues here?
    (There was also no middle name, in the Funeral Notice.)
    Can you get back to me on this one please. What do you think?

    - Upton
    Yep, that's fine. I think Col also thinks he's still going.

    - Young
    Note: Vic Births has:
    YOUNG Charles William John b. 1919 at Carl. Nth. (No. 1880) - which would equate to 10-10-18, so we need to stick to that, I'd say.
    (another case of someone fudging their military record?)

    - Watson
    Yes, I agree that the born 11-9-1892 chap (with the d-o-b being exactly a year out) has to be the right bloke. (because of everything else, you've documented, about his life)
    As we have those references, from the March 1971 quarter, eg. District: Salisbury; Vol. : 7c; Page: 2177 - isn't it a simple matter of one of you, getting the d-o-d from this?
    I asked Paul Mishura - no luck. Same - when I asked the GSV (even tho I'm a member there!). I've now asked Barb Cullen

    - White
    OK

    - Wellington Ted
    OK

    - Wellington Tom
    The Tom Wellington story, as you outlined it, was really interesting. Doing him originally, like years ago, I always wondered why, after such a prominent sporting record - as you outlined in that newspaper article - I couldn't find him; he just seemed to have disappeared. Of course, I never realized about all those other sordid aspects of his life, which you've uncovered! And yes, it looks like he made himself disappear. Which is disappointing for us! - no hope now, of a date-of-death?

    Just going off on a tangent here - it rang a bell, with another guy on the list; who I don't think you've touched on yet:
    William John Kenny. Nothing on him yet? Son of the earlier William John Kenny, the original player (1871 - 1932). For example, nothing on him? - from the father's death in '32.
    I can vaguely remember, years ago, seeing in the South Melbourne local paper, at the time of his very brief footy career (1919), that he was giving footy up to concentrate on his athletics. He was supposed to be a really prominent sprinter, I think. No idea what heights he may have reached. But, you know, 'the sky was the limit' type of thing, at that time. Very very vaguely seem to recollect - he was going to UK for his aths; or was returning from UK?
    I thought, OK, that death will show up somewhere - but I never found it!

    - Greenham
    Yep, I noted he was living at Currumbin, early '90s. Great that you got him!

    Wish we could have a similar breakthrough with Brewis. I know for a fact he died in Ipswich, Qld, in 1994 - can't get any closer than that. (despite heaps of calls, etc.) -
    that was in my prepared email! - haha!!! - just seen that you've given me the date now!!!! - thanks so much!!

    P.S. I've asked the Collingwood guys again, for the Corby date. Don't know why they're taking so long; as they've established the contact, with the family
     
  6. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    Bill McMaster died on 3 October 2017
    http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=507622
    http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/notice/450502021/view?random=1512424737511
    http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/notice/448752012/view?random=1512424789038
     
  7. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    Just checking...there are no names between Ryan and Sharp ?

    What about Carl Schaefer - are his details lodged with the AFL ?
     
  8. WhiteHartLane23

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    Getting closer on Eric Leslie Watson.. mid January 1971 given burial was on the 18th Jan and we now know which cemetery
    from https://search.findmypast.com/record?id=gbprs/d/151149469/1
    First name(s) ERIC
    Last name WATSON
    Birth year 1894
    Death year 1971
    Age 77
    Burial year 1971
    Burial day 18
    Burial month Jan
    Place MERE; CEMETERY
    County Wiltshire
    Country England
    Notes late 60th Bn 1st AIF husb of Gertrude
    Reference 172970
    Record set Wiltshire Memorial Inscription Index
    Category Birth, Marriage & Death (Parish Registers)
    Subcategory Parish Burials
    Collections from England, United Kingdom
    The 60th Batt AIF ref confirms this is definitely the right person - as per https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/R1866707
     
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  9. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    Yes according to Stephen Rodgers, they have his date of death
     
  10. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

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    Try Wiltshire opc website. Might have relevant records or direction for
     
  11. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    re: Carl Schaefer
    OK, that is good.
    Was just checking as he is one of the most unusual given his complete change of name !
     

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  12. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Gold

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  13. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

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    I still need further information but I would like to propose the following for consideration
    If we take the above William John Kenny born 1897 married to Annie/Anne then the following is of interest.

    Page 4 we have an MBE awarded to William John Kenny for his work on the Snowy Hydro scheme. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article104254580 note the age/year of retirement (when 65 was typical retirement age)

    Funeral notice ACT: (death late December 1978) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article136972842

    Followed in 1980 by Anne Kenny widow of WJ Kenny http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article110961919

    FindMyPast also have a William cross-referenced to Annie both leaving UK in 1937 ( no access only reference) . This doesnt mean the electoral information is wrong, just not caught up.

    There is a photo in the MBE notice if anyone has an earlier photo ( I note Boyles do not) to see if the face is similar
     
  14. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

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    Dec 9
    4,099

    ;)
     
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  15. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

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    <snip> still to be found
    6 *Desmond 'Des' Clyde Bell b:23/5/1923 Melb 1946-1948 alive in 2016
    7 *Ronald "Ron" Arthur Bickley b:21/10/1926 Fitz 1949-1951 alive in 2016
    11 Henry "Harry" John Brown b:16/10/1903 St Kilda 1927
    12 Samuel Otto John Buck b:15/11/1876 Carlton 1897
    13 *Alfred Joseph Callick b:14/8/1925 SthMelb 1943,1946-1950 alive in 2016
    16 *Milton Clark b:27/6/1922 Ess 1945 alive Aug 2016
    18 Jack Louis Cliff b:23/5/1919 StK 1940-42
    21 Eugene Francis "Frank" Corby b:24/12/1924 Coll:1948
    22 Frederick "Fred" Rowland Coulsell b:17/12/1905 Nth:1927,Ess 1931
    23 Robert "Bobby" Ritchie Craig b:29/3/1882 Melb 1902
    25 Richard James Day b:17/2/1920 Nth:1943
    32 *Harry Leslie "Les" Gardner b:30/9/1923 StK 1947
    33 James "Jimmy" Gaynor b:17/5/1877 Carl 1904
    34 Maxwell "Max" Herbert Glass b:2/10/1925 Sth 1945
    36 *Gordon Stanley Green b:31/5/1925 NthMelb 1942 alive in 2017
    39 Roger"Bill" Musgrove Hearn b:4/3/1914 Rich 1935
    40 Edward "Ted" Page Heffernan b:16/5/1869 Carl 1897
    47 *Albert "Bert" Thomas James b:5/6/1923 Rich 1947
    49 Charles "Charlie" Herbert Jenkins b:17/6/1878 Fitz 1898
    52 *Geoffrey John Kerr b:7/4/1925 Stk 1945;1947
    53 *James "Jim" Francis Kirby b:21/12/1922 NthM 1946
    54 Edmund Kirwin b:31/3/1876 StKilda 1898
    57 Reginald John "Jack" Law b:18/7/1924 Foots 1943-44 alive Oct 2017
    59 William "Billy" Francis Roy Leahy b:7/3/1911 Foots 1934-1936
    60 Thomas "Tom" Francis Lee b:11/12/1874 Coll 1897-98
    63 George Lockwood b:6/12/1872 Geel 1899-1901,Coll 1902-04
    65 James "Jim" Gordon Lyons b:5/4/1876 Carlton 1897-98
    68 *James "Jim" Malone b:13/11/1925 NthMelb 1945-52 still living
    69 *Joseph "Joe" Malone b:4/2/1924 NthMelb 1946-47
    71 John "Joe" Albert Marchant b:11/9/1884 StKilda 1904
    72 Joseph "Joe" Thomas Marr b:9/08/1880 Carlton1900-02, Ess:1903
    73 *John "Jack" Llewellen Matthews b:22/10/1914 NthMelb 1941
    74 Charlie McCartney b:26/2/1874 SthMelb 1897,Ess 1899
    75 *James "Jim" Kenneth McDonald b:24/6/1916 Melb 1942
    76 Patrick "Paddy" John McDonald b:27/3/1897 Ess 1918-19
    77 Robert "Rhoda" Ernest McDonald b:29/4/1878 Coll 1897, Carl 1901,Rich(VFA) 1901-07
    78 John "Jack" James McKenzie b:19/8/1908 Ess 1929
    82 Walter "Wally" Hensen Miller b:21/10/1917 Fitz 1943-45
    83 James "Jim" Reginald Morton b:25/10/1905 Nth 1927
    84 Alfred "Alf" Carl Frank Neeson b:15/6/1914 Fitz 1935-36, Haw 1936-38
    87 Michael "Mick" Joseph O'Hagan b:22/1/1878 StK 1897
    88 *George Henry Prismall b:10/3/1915 Ess 1935
    89 *Robert "Bob" Reid b:8/6/1924 Footscray 1948-49
    90 Samuel "Sam" Alexander Reid b:17/6/1872 Carlton 1897
    93 Albert Tasman Roberts b:18/8/1901 Fitz 1928
    94 Archibald Robinson b:9/7/1890 Richmond 1911
    95 Raymond Paul Ross b:2/5/1900 Ess 1921
    97 Alan James "Ginger" Ryan b:26/9/1909 Melb 1932-33,Coll 1934-38
    103 James "Jim" William Smith b:11/2/1887 Sth 1906
    105 *Stanley Vincent Smith b:17/4/1925 Coll 1947-50
    108 Horace "Horrie" Stewart b:29/5/1871 Ess 1898
    110 James "Jim" Scott Sutherland b:10/5/1900 Sth 1924
    111 *Lionel Charles Upton b:3/10/1924 NthMelb 1948 alive Aug 2017
    114 Tom Wellington b:27/10/1894 Melb 1912-13
    116 *Albert "Alby" Joseph Williams b:3/8/1916 NthMelb 1943
    117 William "Billy" Francis Williams b:2/5/1888 StKilda 1907
    118 William "Bill" Henry Woods b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909

    I think it helps to have them separated and also on the last page ( for now)
    Waiting for confirmation but likely solved
    99 John "Johnny" Patrick Ryan b:18/9/1938 Rich 1959 likely still alive

    Completed *green is some concern
    119 Charles William Young b:10/10/1918- WW2 Nominal Roll says 1917 Fitzroy 1937 died 22/3/1969

    51 William "Bill" John Kenny b:30/7/1897 Sth Melb1919
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017 at 12:23 AM
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  16. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    I have checked various BDMs, cemetery records, Ryerson index of notices, and Ancestry.
    Cannot find any reference to his death.

    Haven't found any definite reference to him dated in recent years,
    but think it highly likely that Max Glass is still alive.
     
  17. WhiteHartLane23

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    You've definitely found him!!
    see http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/Navy_News-July-27-1962.pdf (p4) - mentions he was a SM footballer and confirms he was in London from 1929 to 1937 (and has another photo)
    By the way - MBE was for services to the navy (not Snowy Hydro)
     
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  18. WhiteHartLane23

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  19. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    I'll advise Stephen R on your behalf. GreyCrow can you strikethrough 51 off your list please.
     
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  20. Snidely Whiplash

    Snidely Whiplash Rookie

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    No. 21 on the list is Eugene Francis (Frank) Corby. His dod details have been passed onto SR at AFL previously.

    On SM-G955F using BigFooty.com mobile app
     
  21. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

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    If you can confirm this rbartlett I shall strike him as well
     
  22. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

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    Oh dear some bad maths :ignore
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017 at 5:33 PM
  23. Snidely Whiplash

    Snidely Whiplash Rookie

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    Sorry, just realised year has been confirmed but still waiting day and month from family members.
     
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  24. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Brownlow Medallist

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    That would be great , just helps to know to stop looking :)
     
  25. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    I think J P Ryan might still be alive running a farm at Fish Creek.
    Rhett's Tigerland Archive makes reference to his career and life in general.
     
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