Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[the croucher]

News from Stephen Rodgers

Something else to pass on:
the Essendon player of 1920-21
George Faulkner, is now a new man.

It wasn't the right chap, that we had in our records.

The descendants of the player, fortuitously, contacted Essendon.

He was born illegitimately under a different name.
(Of course I didn't know that, when I was looking for who could be the right bloke, in the birth records, 20 to 25 years ago!)
He eventually became George Michael Faulkner.
His correct d-o-b is 4/2/1901.
(Not 4/2/1903, as he states - as you'll see - in his WW2 Nominal Record.)
(Another add-on for Barb!!)
He later dies 25/5/1985.
The family also told us, his half-brother was Ross Faulkner of football manufacturing fame.

All that then leads to his original birth registration being:
Pemberton Waters (Vic BDMs reg #1130 in 1901), father unnamed, mother Daisy Waters.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

TWENTIETH BATCH
Horace "Horrie" Stewart - Ess 1898. dob 29/5.1871 orig club: Launceston

Found one of our outstanding ones...
Horace Stewart - born Westbury, Tasmania on 29 May 1871 to James Stewart and Mary Elizabeth Mehegan

Eldest of at least four children (some ancestry trees have 6)
The entire family moved to NZ (and many of their NZ records are under the surname Stuart rather than Stewart).

Horace Stewart died in Auckland on 14 July 1951
Auckland Cemetery transcription on Ancestry reads
"In loving memory of MOLLY (MARY ANN) STEWART who died 9.2.1950, aged 75 years. Beloved wife of HORACE STEWART who died 14.7.1951, aged 83 years"
Even though his actual age at death was 80 (based on published DOB) rather than the 83 that is on the gravestone, I'm pretty confident this is correct - several of the other family member graves state "born in/native of Westbury, Tasmania"

note 1: His birth record appears only as (M) STEWART with no recorded given name but exact date match.
note 2: There is very little to identify the actual player in press from 1898 beyond he was from Launceston.

 

[rbartlett]

Found one of our outstanding ones...
Horace Stewart - born Westbury, Tasmania on 29 May 1871 to James Stewart and Mary Elizabeth Mehegan

Thanks White Hart Lane.
I'll advise Stephen Rogers for you.
GreyCrow can you update your post 440 to reflect that WHL has found this one.

 

[the croucher]

Found one of our outstanding ones...
Horace Stewart - born Westbury, Tasmania on 29 May 1871 to James Stewart and Mary Elizabeth Mehegan

Eldest of at least four children (some ancestry trees have 6)
The entire family moved to NZ (and many of their NZ records are under the surname Stuart rather than Stewart).

Horace Stewart died in Auckland on 14 July 1951
Auckland Cemetery transcription on Ancestry reads
"In loving memory of MOLLY (MARY ANN) STEWART who died 9.2.1950, aged 75 years. Beloved wife of HORACE STEWART who died 14.7.1951, aged 83 years"
Even though his actual age at death was 80 (based on published DOB) rather than the 83 that is on the gravestone, I'm pretty confident this is correct - several of the other family member graves state "born in/native of Westbury, Tasmania"

note 1: His birth record appears only as (M) STEWART with no recorded given name but exact date match.
note 2: There is very little to identify the actual player in press from 1898 beyond he was from Launceston.

Just a note of caution with this one - some Ancestry trees show the Horace Stewart with DOD 14 Jul 1951
as having been born in Kent in 1868.

The NZ BDMs site also shows his age as 83 on record #25754

 

[rbartlett]

Just a note of caution with this one

No probs. I've advised Rogers of this as well.

 

[rbartlett]

Rogers said he will look into it.
He also added that: "Barb (from Essendon) has tracked down a descendant of Adam Gower Sutherland de Ross."

I've asked Stephen to provide us with list of outstanding names, so we can cross check it against our list on here

 

[GreyCrow]

Ancestry have a Free weekend for all of Easter.

 

[the croucher]

Have had a glance but cannot see that concerns have previously been raised about
Lewis Jones (St Kilda 1 game in 1904) https://australianfootball.com/players/player/lewis+jones/1928
has DOB 28 October 1886 and DOD 7 July 1960 on couple of sites but I think at least one of those dates could be wrong.
Was he born in 1884 or 1886 ? Did he die in 1960 or 1965 ?

His death notice is in The Age 8 July 1960
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MAUTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Sa8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=5423,1297414
his death reg in Vic BDMs Lewis Alfred Jones 1960 #8664 parents Henry Joseph Jones and Isabelle (nee Kelly) age shown as 74
Ancestry trees identify that L A’s father was Henry Joseph and H J’s mother was Isabella Kelly, not L A’s
There is a Louis Alfred Jones reg birth in St Kilda in 1884 #5847 parents given as Henry Jones and Rebecca Harrison (nee McNeil)
Ancestry tree gives his DOB as 20 Dec 1883.

The death notice has Lewis's wife as the late Mary Judith - her death (nee Macintosh) reg in 1958 #6273
Lewis Jones marriage to Mary Macintosh reg in 1914 #1382 marriage notice in paper
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/7249270?searchTerm=jones mcintosh redan&searchLimits=dateFrom=1914-01-01|||dateTo=1914-12-31|||l-category=Family+Notices|||l-state=Victoria

That 1960 Age notice also lists a sister for Jones with name of Stella (Mrs E H Whitehead). Stella Zadie Jones married Ernest Alfred Whitehead in 1916 #6880
Stella Whitehead reg death in 1962 #6069 parents given as Henry Jones and Rebecca (nee Harrison), Stella’s age given as 73 and birthplace as St Kilda. There is a birth reg in Vic in 1889 #7885 for a Priscilla Zaidee with same parents shown
Rebecca’s death in Adelaide at Stella’s home 1941 see top of column 2
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/2624430

comparison of the 1909 and 1914 electoral rolls shows Jones family members including Henry, Rebecca, and Priscilla Sadie at Redan Street, St Kilda. The 1909 roll also includes Lewis Alfred, but of course his marriage in early 1914 means his absence from that year is no surprise.

A Lewis Alfred Jones birth reg 1886 #25316 parents Robert and Lily Fra (nee Anderson)
Alfred Lewis Jones death in Moe district #10340 in 1965 with father named as Robert and age as 78, mother unknown.
If his birthday was later in the year, then he’d be 79 = birth in 1886 !

 

[the croucher]

Another one - uncertain about Bill Gunn, "official" dates may be correct, but if so it is a surprise that a death took a year to register
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/bill+gunn/4041

Wm Jno Gunn birth reg 1899 #12281
parents Wm & Emily Ellen (Hope) place: S Melb

William John Gunn death reg 1971 #7819
parents William James & Emily Ellen (Hope) place: Kew, age 70

Did he really die in 1970, or was it in 1971 ?

 

[GreyCrow]

Another one - uncertain about Bill Gunn, "official" dates may be correct, but if so it is a surprise that a death took a year to register
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/bill+gunn/4041

Wm Jno Gunn birth reg 1899 #12281
parents Wm & Emily Ellen (Hope) place: S Melb

William John Gunn death reg 1971 #7819
parents William James & Emily Ellen (Hope) place: Kew, age 70

Did he really die in 1970, or was it in 1971 ?

The simple explanation could be a December birth followed by a late November/December death , 6 weeks to register , holidays. Its possible to go into 1971. Or there could have been an inquest and until that occurred no DC registered

Edit: Nominal Rolls say birth 12 May 1899

 

[CBickley]

According to this post on FootyAlmanac Ron was still alive in 2016. There may also be an opportunity to get in touch with the original comment maker.

June 17, 2016 at 1:18 pm
Hi! My father is Ronald Bickley who played 28 games for Fitzroy 1949-51and is still alive and well at 89 years old. I wonder if he is the oldest surviving VFL player?

Hi again! My father Ron is still with us in 2018 at the age of 91 living in Preston!

 

[GreyCrow]

Hi again! My father Ron is still with us in 2018 at the age of 91 living in Preston!

Thank you for posting , on your earlier query it seems there are a few older than your father. Milton Clark for Essendon is 96 this year. Latest searches suggest he is still alive.

 

[killer]

he'd be the oldest Roy then?

 

[35Daicos]

he'd be the oldest Roy then?

Not necessarily. If you look at this there's a few who may still be going and outdo him: https://australianfootball.com/club...ason_to=1996&limit=5000&order_by=dob&sort=asc

 

[GreyCrow]

Updated

( I dont have room in my sig for link)
<snip> still to be found
6 *Desmond 'Des' Clyde Bell b:23/5/1923 Melb 1946-1948 alive in 2016
13 *Alfred Joseph Callick b:14/8/1925 SthMelb 1943,1946-1950 alive in 2016
36 *Gordon Stanley Green b:31/5/1925 NthMelb 1942 alive in 2017
68 *James "Jim" Malone b:13/11/1925 NthMelb 1945-52 still living as of March 29 2018
111 *Lionel Charles Upton b:3/10/1924 NthMelb 1948 alive Aug 2017


11 Henry "Harry" John Brown b:16/10/1903 St Kilda 1927
12 Samuel Otto John Buck b:15/11/1876 Carlton 1897
18 Jack Louis Cliff b:23/5/1919 StK 1940-42
21 Eugene Francis "Frank" Corby b:24/12/1924 Coll:1948
22 Frederick "Fred" Rowland Coulsell b:17/12/1905 Nth:1927,Ess 1931
23 Robert "Bobby" Ritchie Craig b:29/3/1882 Melb 1902
25 Richard James Day b:17/2/1920 Nth:1943
32 *Harry Leslie "Les" Gardner b:30/9/1923 StK 1947
33 James "Jimmy" Gaynor b:17/5/1877 Carl 1904
34 Maxwell "Max" Herbert Glass b:2/10/1925 Sth 1945
39 Roger"Bill" Musgrove Hearn b:4/3/1914 Rich 1935
40 Edward "Ted" Page Heffernan b:16/5/1869 Carl 1897
49 Charles "Charlie" Herbert Jenkins b:17/6/1878 Fitz 1898
52 *Geoffrey John Kerr b:7/4/1925 Stk 1945;1947
53 *James "Jim" Francis Kirby b:21/12/1922 NthM 1946
54 Edmund Kirwin b:31/3/1876 StKilda 1898
59 William "Billy" Francis Roy Leahy b:7/3/1911 Foots 1934-1936
60 Thomas "Tom" Francis Lee b:11/12/1874 Coll 1897-98
63 George Lockwood b:6/12/1872 Geel 1899-1901,Coll 1902-04
65 James "Jim" Gordon Lyons b:5/4/1876 Carlton 1897-98
71 John "Joe" Albert Marchant b:11/9/1884 StKilda 1904
72 Joseph "Joe" Thomas Marr b:9/08/1880 Carlton1900-02, Ess:1903 Died Prior 1918
74 Charlie McCartney b:26/2/1874 SthMelb 1897,Ess 1899
75 *James "Jim" Kenneth McDonald b:24/6/1916 Melb 1942
76 Patrick "Paddy" John McDonald b:27/3/1897 Ess 1918-19
77 Robert "Rhoda" Ernest McDonald b:29/4/1878 Coll 1897, Carl 1901,Rich(VFA) 1901-07
78 John "Jack" James McKenzie b:19/8/1908 Ess 1929
84 Alfred "Alf" Carl Frank Neeson b:15/6/1914 Fitz 1935-36, Haw 1936-38
87 Michael "Mick" Joseph O'Hagan b:22/1/1878 StK 1897
88 *George Henry Prismall b:10/3/1915 Ess 1935
89 *Robert "Bob" Reid b:8/6/1924 Footscray 1948-49
90 Samuel "Sam" Alexander Reid b:17/6/1872 Carlton 1897
94 Archibald Robinson b:9/7/1890 Richmond 1911
95 Raymond Paul Ross b:2/5/1900 Ess 1921
97 Alan James "Ginger" Ryan b:26/9/1909 Melb 1932-33,Coll 1934-38
103 James "Jim" William Smith b:11/2/1887 Sth 1906
105 *Stanley Vincent Smith b:17/4/1925 Coll 1947-50
110 James "Jim" Scott Sutherland b:10/5/1900 Sth 1924
114 Tom Wellington b:27/10/1894 Melb 1912-13
116 *Albert "Alby" Joseph Williams b:3/8/1916 NthMelb 1943
117 William "Billy" Francis Williams b:2/5/1888 StKilda 1907
118 William "Bill" Henry Woods b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909

I think it helps to have them separated and also on the last page ( for now)

Waiting for confirmation but likely solved
83 James "Jim" Reginald Morton b:25/10/1905 Nth 1927 As Joseph
99 John "Johnny" Patrick Ryan b:18/9/1938 Rich 1959 likely still alive
47 *Albert "Bert" Thomas James b:5/6/1923 Rich 1947 #597 confirmation needed
73 *John "Jack" Llewellen Matthews b:22/10/1914 -27/10/1994 NthMelb 1941 #604 confirmation needed


Completed
119 Charles William Young b:10/10/1918- WW2 Nominal Roll says 1917 Fitzroy 1937 died 22/3/1969
93 Albert Tasman Roberts b:18/8/1901 Fitz 1928 #post 484
51 William "Bill" John Kenny b:30/7/1897 Sth Melb1919
82 Walter "Wally" Hensen Miller b:21/10/1917 Fitz 1943-45 passed away 1992 #post 506-508
108 Horace "Horrie" Stewart b:29/5/1871 Ess 1898 As noted #Post 552 by WHL
69 *Joseph "Joe" Malone b:4/2/1924 NthMelb 1946-47 March 24 2018 as noted by rbartlett
57 Reginald John "Jack" Law b:18/7/1924 -26/1/2018 Foots 1943-44 Herald notice 31/1/2018
16 *Milton Clark b:27/6/1922 Ess 1945 died June 2018 Herald notice 21/6/2018

7 *Ronald "Ron" Arthur Bickley b:21/10/1926 Fitz 1949-1951 alive #post 561 April 2 2018

 

[rbartlett]

Hi again! My father Ron is still with us in 2018 at the age of 91 living in Preston!

How lovely to hear ! Send him all our best.
Out of interest, have you ever interviewed (like with a tape recorder) him about his memories of playing

 

[rbartlett]

Rodgers has advised that Adam Gower Sutherland de Ross' birth date is April 1 1890

 

[Supermercado]

Possible error on a recorded birthdate:

Harold De Gruchy was a one game player for Melbourne in 1901, who died about a month later in Geelong Hospital. His DOD is confirmed as 13/08/1901, but in his funeral notice he's shown as 19-years-old when official records say he was born 09/02/1881 and would have been well over 20. A BDM search also shows him aged 19 (but has no matching birth record).

I'm also interested in any confirmation of how he died so young, but whatever happened doesn't seem to have been interesting enough to make the papers.

 

[GreyCrow]

Possible error on a recorded birthdate:

Harold De Gruchy was a one game player for Melbourne in 1901, who died about a month later in Geelong Hospital. His DOD is confirmed as 13/08/1901, but in his funeral notice he's shown as 19-years-old when official records say he was born 09/02/1881 and would have been well over 20. A BDM search also shows him aged 19 (but has no matching birth record).

I'm also interested in any confirmation of how he died so young, but whatever happened doesn't seem to have been interesting enough to make the papers.

A thought. The Trove notice says he is 19 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139165815 ie Family know best. My question then is what form does the Official Record take? Looking at the birth date I wondered if it is meant to be 2 September 1881. That then makes him 19+11m at DOD

 

[the croucher]

Possible error on a recorded birthdate:

Harold De Gruchy was a one game player for Melbourne in 1901, who died about a month later in Geelong Hospital. His DOD is confirmed as 13/08/1901, but in his funeral notice he's shown as 19-years-old when official records say he was born 09/02/1881 and would have been well over 20. A BDM search also shows him aged 19 (but has no matching birth record).

I'm also interested in any confirmation of how he died so young, but whatever happened doesn't seem to have been interesting enough to make the papers.

Vic BDMs have a record for him as Harold Brinsley Sheridan DeGrouchy 1881/#4263 registered in Melbourne area.
The next record #4264 is for Isabella Lambourn.
A search on Ancestry returns at least one tree with her birthdate shown as 16 Feb 1881,
so perhaps HBS DeGrouchy date of 9 Feb 1881 is correct after all.

 

[35Daicos]

Possible error on a recorded birthdate:

Harold De Gruchy was a one game player for Melbourne in 1901, who died about a month later in Geelong Hospital. His DOD is confirmed as 13/08/1901, but in his funeral notice he's shown as 19-years-old when official records say he was born 09/02/1881 and would have been well over 20. A BDM search also shows him aged 19 (but has no matching birth record).

I'm also interested in any confirmation of how he died so young, but whatever happened doesn't seem to have been interesting enough to make the papers.

Here's the birth registration that matches:

Record information
Event Birth
Event registration number 4263
Registration year 1881

Personal information
Family name DEGRUCHY
Given names Harold Brinsley Sheridan
Sex Unknown
Father's name Thomas
Mother's name Catherine (Casey)
Place of birth MELB

 

[Supermercado]

Thanks all, a case for both the notices being wrong and the date being the wrong way around.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Thanks all, a case for both the notices being wrong and the date being the wrong way around.

Just a quick note that on demonwiki you have an incorrect DOB for Les Irwin. Sometime in the last couple of years it seems to have been updated to 3 March 1887 - AFL Tables, austfootball.com and Harder Than Football now all have this date and BDM/Ancestry confirm this as correct.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Rodgers has advised that Adam Gower Sutherland de Ross' birth date is April 1 1890

Thanks for this - I've updated Wikipedia and let AFL Tables/australianfootball.com know of the new correct dates of birth/death

 

[Supermercado]

Just a quick note that on demonwiki you have an incorrect DOB for Les Irwin. Sometime in the last couple of years it seems to have been updated to 3 March 1887 - AFL Tables, austfootball.com and Harder Than Football now all have this date and BDM/Ancestry confirm this as correct.

Thank you, will edit now.