Research - Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL) | Page 25 | BigFooty

Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

Discussion in 'Footy History' started by rbartlett, Aug 2, 2017.

  1. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Hall of Famer

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    Have you forwarded the possibility in #597?

    I shall update the above - not on list
     

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  2. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    I missed sending the Bert James details. Have now sent to him. Will keep you posted
    Rhett
    5.40pm
     
  3. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    Response from Stephen
    In relation to the Albert Thomas James one, it seems, don't you think, matching up all the pieces -
    that that man, the Mt. Gambier one, has to be the right bloke, don't you think!

    Saying 69, could mean, "he was 68 1/2, he was in his 69th year
    (all those sort of ones we've had before) - or the informant just wasn't sure; had a stab at it; that sort of stuff!
    but it's so close to what it should be, don't you think, that I'm sure it's him.

    I had a look at the WW2 Nominal Roll (as you probably did) because Barb has him in the book-
    that also says 5 - 6 - 1923.

    My gut feel, is that that's correct -
    but what we can do,
    is next time Russell has a couple of queries for BDM, we can just ask him to also have a quick check -
    is it 5-6-22 or 5-6-23 for that man.
     
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  4. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Senior List

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    As per info in Centurions thread I had a look at Tasmanian cemetery records and found at http://www.devonport.tas.gov.au/Council/Our-City/Our-Cemeteries/Mersey-Vale-Devonport-Cemetery-Search
    (note: several records on Ancestry.com also use the surname Mathews rather than Matthews)

    Date of Burial Given Names Surname Age Location Row Plot No Plaque* Profile*
    27/10/1994 John Lewellen Mathews 80Y W2 C 17 Plaque Profile

    So Jack Matthews died in October 1994 in Tasmania - exact date tbc but if he was 80 it would be between 22nd and 27th
     
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  5. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    In recent days by kindly replying to my general enquiry on Ancestry, a family member has confirmed that Kerr is still alive, aged 93.
     
  6. GreyCrow

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    Updated to include Milton Clark June 2018 (possibly June 19/20) as posted by rbartlett in the Recent Deaths thread
     
  7. GreyCrow

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  8. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    I should add that the AFL is hopeful that we discover more about the missing two Richardsons:

    Richardson St K 1898 unknown at the moment
    and
    Richardson St K 1901 unknown at the moment


    I've told Stephen we may not have much more info for him, so it may simply be a gap that can't be filled.

    He did email his contact in the West as to the A. Richardson playing 6 games for Perth in 1904.
    He did hear back from the researcher who wrote in part:

    "In looking at the knowns I have record of Richardson (no initial given) receiving a clearance from St Kilda to Perth FC in the West Australian on 11 May 1904. There are also previews of his appearing such as this from WA 14 April 1904:
    Perth have lost but few of last season's men, and will, probably, have, in addition, Orr from the Trafalgar Club, Bailes from Bendigo, Baxter from Miners F.C., Richardson from St. Kilda, and Wells from Cue.

    Richmond club records have Archie Richardson playing 47 VFA games between 1902 and 1904 as a centreman and kicking 2 goals. Trouble is my man at Perth (ex St Kilda) was a ruckman defender as per the quotes below:

    West Australian 18.06.1904

    Richardson, of the red and blacks, gives every indication of being a good player, but he discounts all his work by clumsy play in the ruck. A little more coolness would give more effectiveness. A man who gives away "frees" has to play remarkably well to make up for it.


    WA 28.05.1904
    Richardson although at times over zealous, also marked well and played when following with evidences of good form.


    Mail 24.06.1904
    Perth were certainly without Richardson, whose high marking was so effective against East Fremantle "

    ----------

    Stephen Rodgers replied in part
    And so A.Richardson, the follower (as you've noted), joins St K in 1901 from Leopold.
    It seems pretty certain now, he's not the guy at Richmond in 1902 (who as we know continues thru '04 there). Rather, he joins Perth in 1904.
    ( As you've noted, there was the initialless clearance of Richardson in The West Australian; however a few days earlier, on 7/5/04, The Age here, said:
    A.Richardson, St K to WA.)

    That's why I was really hopeful you may know "something" about this bloke - what happened after Perth, did he stay in WA, did he return to Vic, did he serve in WW1, did he end up dying in WA - that sort of thing!
    Anything at all that would help in identifying him!
    So that we could at least "identify" the St K 1901 player for our records.

    And on top of that, we also need to identify the St K 1898 Richardson!
    There seems to be a really remote chance that HE is, later famous, H.Archie -
    who may have played those 3 games in 1898, an 18-, rising 19-y-o, then "disappeared" to suburban/country footy for 3 to 4 years;
    then bobbed up at Richmond in 1902.
    But ignored mentioning it/preferred not to mention it/didn't think it was important enough to mention -
    in the later Sporting Globe articles.
    -----------

    Greg replied
    Hi there Steve,

    Thanks for that feedback and you do look to have quite an issue with those early St Kilda Richardsons! I really wish that I was able to shed more light on A Richardson after his Perth stint for you but sadly the trail goes very bare. The only other note I have on him says that after his last game against West Perth on June 25th he was away on business. That might suggest he was not a labourer but it could mean any one of a multitude of occupations! I certainly don't have any record of a transfer from Perth after 1904 and really very few other clues indeed as to what may have become of him. In looking at A Richardsons who were on the electoral roll in WA in 1906 but not in 1903 there was an Alfred George and an Alfred Ernest who were not around in 1903 but I have no idea if the Perth player stayed after 1904 or left so its all pretty much guesswork.

    If I do get any more clues I will let you know mate but for now I am going to have to record him simply as A Richardson 6 games 1904. I probably have a good 500 or more WAFL players who are no more than a surname or surname and initial so look on the bright side - VFL records are well ahead of WAFL (and I dare say SANFL despite the great efforts of my late mate Mark Beswick).

    All the best for now Steve.

    Regards,

    Greg Wardell-Johnson
    ---------

    Stephen replied
    Greg,

    Thank you again!

    Col and I are still trying to nut this thing out!

    From what you sent, about being off/on the electoral roll, I had a quick look, and - in Karrakatta, there is an Alfred Ernest, dying 1939, aged 57; and an Alfred George, dying 1962, aged 79.

    They indicate dates of birth around 1882/83 - and while that's "possible", it might be slightly too young -
    as per this photo; the Leopold 1900 side - the "man in the middle", you can even see the caption, is
    A.Richardson.
    From there, as we know, to St Kilda in 1901.
    He is almost certainly, the man at Perth in 1904, don't you think.

    So, in the photo, he "should" be 17/18, but he actually looks a bit older, don't you think.

    So possibly no match, at least in that respect, with the electoral roll data.

    So that's where we're at, at the moment.

    Thank you again!

    Hopefully we can eventually get a resolution.
     
  9. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

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    Wikipedia does say 15 June 2018, but I can't see where they got that from.
     
  10. WhiteHartLane23

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    The Past Players Associations of clubs often publish lists of members who have passed away. The NM annual report from March this year states:
    "We acknowledge with sadness the passing of the following Past Players and Officials - Bobby Burt, Kevin Dynon, Barry Gavin, Jim Kuhl, Tom McLean, Keith McKenzie and Frank Steane."

    Can anyone find or does anyone know of death details for Bobby Burt and Tom McLean? (nothing in Wiki or australianfootball.com)

    EDIT: Also Bob Stewart has apparently passed away (from the 2015 Annual Report)
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
  11. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    Only one tantalising ref for Burt so far - Herald Sun Oct 2017
    http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/notice/454012017/view?random=1532141095240

    ..and I think this could be Tom McLean's death in March 2017
    http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/notice/384592010/view?random=1532141317730
     
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  12. WhiteHartLane23

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  13. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

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    This has the correct DOB so must be the right chap: BURT Robert Roy 23/05/1934 29/09/2017 Fawkner Memorial Park Cremation 06/10/2017

    http://www.gmct.com.au/deceased-search/
     
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  14. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

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    This seems a very reasonable chance of being the right man: Ballarat Cemetery New Stewart Robert Val 03/05/1939 02/12/2015 (Death Date) Cremated

    https://web.ballaratcemeteries.com.au/Deceasedsearch/DeceasedSearch.aspx

    Though it has a DOB of 03/05/1939, the (AFL) records have 05/03/1939. 'The Encyclopedia' has the player as Robert V. 'Bob' Stewart, and says he was ex-Redan, all of which would fit.

    Edit: The cemetery records say his occupation was "Butcher/Cleaner". You can see in this story from Redan FC that his father's name was Val, and he (the father) was a butcher. Interesting to note it says this of his father: "He was also Uncle Val to Ian and Bruce Nankervis at Geelong."
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2018
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  15. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    Yes, I think you are correct.
    The date is probably the same - one being in Australian format dd/mm/yr, the other US format mm/dd/yr
     
  16. ThePope

    ThePope Premiership Player

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    A random IP editor added that, but the cemetery records match.
     
  17. GreyCrow

    GreyCrow Hall of Famer

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    According to this 2014 note Les was alive . This gives us a working date at least

    http://www.saints.com.au/news/2014-12-12/the-oldest-living-saint-bob-dawson

    As far as the club is aware, Dawson is one of three former Saints aged 90 or over.

    Les Gardner (September 30, 1923) is almost three years his junior, while John Curtin (November 8, 1924) turned 90 last month.

    Gardner played the first three matches of the 1947 season, while Curtin was selected for rounds one and two but never played for the Saints again.
     
  18. GreyCrow

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    Seems he may not have changed his name, and added another. He may be alive as of 1952 in Adelaide. Born 1894 this makes him approx 58. I understand that most of this info has been presented but I feel establishing time lines and links helps establish why I think it is him in Adelaide in 1952

    Tom has not had a good life and has let drink get the better of him

    1923 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article166005218 note *respectable person

    1926 his bigamy trial establishes his Elsternwick address and occupation of Clerk. These are establishers for further info
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202205698

    Later that same year he is caught in the incorrect train carriage http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article3823498 of Elsternwick

    1928 is his Forgery trial and this is the start of the age discrepancies I feel haunt him . This states he is 32 ie 1898 but everything else fits Clerk etc and a tendency to drink http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article232332871

    He receives a 1 year sentence

    1935 is the Missing Persons notice http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11758547

    1936 a Thomas Wellington aged 45 ie 1891 approaches a constable begging. The article notes he is of no fixed address and has previous convictions
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article244729476

    1949 a Thomas P Wellington found to be Drunk and Disorderly. Fine or Jail. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article58210388

    1952 Thomas Patrick Wellington aged 59 ie 1893 is in Adelaide up on his 106th conviction from 1928 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article47418343
    Yet there doesnt seem to be corresponding listings of cases in Adelaide? I would have at least expected something of those 106 convictions. This is why I feel its possibly our man.

    There is a further notice that states 49 years. I think there might have been a tired journo ;)

    I think I have put it out as best I can. I think there is a good chance they are all the same person but not conclusive. Further there is no death notice here in SA up till 1970.

    But as noted he had various aliases
     
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  19. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    Well done. Comprehensive effort, and I agree - it appears you have tracked the same person, but the vital clue or information to confirm is still missing. Indeed, unfortunately, we may have to in the future admit that confirmation is not possible. Still, we'll keep looking, 'tis a bit frustrating that Ancestry has so little of the Sth Aust electoral roll set, isn't it.
     
  20. GreyCrow

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    Follow up on Tom Wellington

    On the assumption everybody dies I looked at SA BDM records , as Tom is likely to have been in Adelaide from 1952. There is a Thomas Joseph Wellington passing in 1955. Too late for newspapers.

    Adelaide Cemetery records list this Thomas Joseph Wellington dying July 25 1955. They list him being buried in West Terrace . Only problem his age is listed as 55 ie born 1900. http://www.aca.sa.gov.au/Memorial-Details/cem/West Terrace Cemetery/mapid/258835

    Interred on 25/07/1955 at 55 Years of age.
    Previously lived in OF ABODE .

    2 things stand out for me

    1. OF ABODE - does this indicate No Fixed Abode?

    The 2nd thing that stopped me is the fact another burial is conducted 1 month later in the same plot

    Lionel Conrad Stapleton aged 85 of Warradale is buried there on 31/8/1955

    Interred on 31/08/1955 at 85 Years of age.
    Previously lived in WARRADALE .

    Thats an extremely short turnaround for re-use. It makes me think Thomas Joseph Wellington is a paupers grave and the cemetery getting money from the internment.

    While the age stated concerns me looking at the previous official records it seems Thomas Wellington is liberal about his age and his name.

    To check I looked for a corresponding birth in SA and NSW (Broken Hill) and I couldnt see any matching. I am not saying this is Tom from Melbourne but I think a DC purchase and a trip to the library might be in the future.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  21. GreyCrow

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    65 James "Jim" Gordon Lyons b:5/4/1876 Carlton 1897-98


    An interesting fellow is Jim Lyons. As you can see he has 3 birth registrations. Maybe his mother was guessing?


    Record information
    Event Birth Event registration number 10687 Registration year 1876

    Personal information Family name BENNETT Given names James Gordon Father's name John Gordon Mother's name Catherine (Lyons)

    Place of birth MELB


    Event Birth Event registration number 10687 Registration year 1876

    Personal information
    Family name MEEHAN Given names James Gordon Father's name Unknown Mother's name Catherine (Lyons)

    Place of birthME LB


    Record information
    Event Birth Event registration number 10687 Registration year 1876

    Personal information Family name LYONS Given names James Gordon Father's name Unknown Mother's name Catherine (Lyons)

    Place of birthME LB

    This last one is the one most of us have focussed our attention on and couldnt find him nor Catherine after this event. But some lateral thinking leads us to this

    Record information
    Event Death Event registration number 32 Registration year 1935

    Personal information
    Family name BENNETT Given names James Gordon Father's name BENNETT John Gordon Mother's name Katherine (Lynch)

    Place of birth

    Place of deathMELBOURNE SOUTH

    Age58

    ----------------
    The misnaming of the mother doesnt bother me as its easily transposed from Irish accents etc.

    There is no obit in the paper for that year under any name. Found 1 for December 1934 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205076654
    26/12/1934 makes the 58 years age right in the frame

    Phillipa Maude Holman married James Bennett 1911

    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  22. Todman

    Todman Norm Smith Medallist

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    The more accurate is the marriage certificate. Person is alive and healthy, mature enough and not affected by fading memory. May have a relative as a witness.


    Death certificate are often filled out by a family friend or neighbour. If Jim Gordon Bennett died unmarried and without a will then maybe it was a neighbour or friend who filled it out. If that's the case then we are relying on 2nd hand memories if Jim told the truth about himself, many didn't.
     
  23. 35Daicos

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    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
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  24. GreyCrow

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    I had thought I had made mention of this somewhere but it doesnt seem so.

    I have spent a bit of time looking at this over the time and I have come to the conclusion that it is not the above listed person. Happy that it is indeed William "Bill" Woods but not Henry.

    William Henry Woods is born 1890 but in Sth Melbourne. Father unknown Mother Emma ( Woods) . In all my searching I had this concern as to how he got to Geelong. These days its a short trip on the highway but in my mind that didnt happen as often as it does now.

    I am also aware my solution has a bit of completism about it. A need to complete the puzzle has led me to this possibility. And I do offer it only as a possibility until checked and reviewed. In saying that it isnt the above then the logical question should then be ' But who''

    William Woods born 1890 in Portarlington !! to William and Isabella (Cornell) . Portarlington is a lot closer to Geelong than Sth Melbourne is. So I feel comfortable about that. He marries in 1915 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article130686641 and the notice links him through family members to the 1890.

    More of a William Woods and no middle name , yet the name underneath includes an initial at least. Minor point but noted. Injured at football
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article150659807

    Does this stop him serving? Note different address. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article130686607

    This is his enlistment, note the name of his NOK Linda his wife noted above https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=331733 and return
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165750222

    The final note in all of this and only posted for the interest of rbartlett is a clearance to Newton in 1928. Note 1 of the names next to William ;)
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article232339195

    The above named dies in 1972 as noted by this in Heidelberg

    Event registration number 15529 Registration year 1972 Personal information Family name WOODS Given names William

    Father's name WOODS William Mother's name Isabella (Cornull) Place of birth Portarlington Place of death Heidelberg Age 82

    ------

    There is also a Henry William born 1889 Ballarat to James and Annie (Scott) marries 1915. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article130699249 this is another possibility .
     
  25. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    William Woods the WW1 serviceman seems slightly built to be a league footballer - enlistment papers give his physical details as:
    height - 5ft 4.5inches (164 cm) weight - 8st 7lbs (54kg)
    https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/28184
     
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