Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

GreyCrow

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Don't know if you mentioned to your guys, from the Remarks column:
Half-brother of Ike.

He's of course more well-known:
Isaac Henry 'Ike' Woods
20/8/1879 > 28/9/1962.
Looks like full brother.
Event registration number 16586 Registration year 1879 Personal information Family name WOODS Given names Isaac Henry

Father's name Isaac Mother's name Emma (Lewis) Place of birth GEEL

This matches to the following and if the information on death is correct then it is 10 years out. There is no corresponding birth notice?

Found it


Event registration number 9862 Registration year 1881 Personal information Family name WOOD Given names William Cross

Father's name Isaac Mother's name Emma (Lewis) Place of birth GEEL

Event registration number 25497 Registration year 1959 Personal information Family name WOODS Given names William Cross

Father's name WOODS Isaac Henry Mother's name Emma (Lewis) Place of birth GEELONG Place of death GEELONG Age 78

I cant see a death of Isaac sr for any 'half-brother' to occur. So I am stumped for now
 
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35Daicos

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Looks like full brother.
Event registration number 16586 Registration year 1879 Personal information Family name WOODS Given names Isaac Henry

Father's name Isaac Mother's name Emma (Lewis) Place of birth GEEL

This matches to the following and if the information on death is correct then it is 10 years out. There is no corresponding birth notice?

Found it


Event registration number 9862 Registration year 1881 Personal information Family name WOOD Given names William Cross

Father's name Isaac Mother's name Emma (Lewis) Place of birth GEEL

Event registration number 25497 Registration year 1959 Personal information Family name WOODS Given names William Cross

Father's name WOODS Isaac Henry Mother's name Emma (Lewis) Place of birth GEELONG Place of death GEELONG Age 78

I cant see a death of Isaac sr for any 'half-brother' to occur. So I am stumped for now
I don't know if this helps or not, but it mentions a third son of (seemingly) those parents dying in 1891:
upload_2018-9-20_22-52-55.png
 

GreyCrow

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I don't know if this helps or not, but it mentions a third son of (seemingly) those parents dying in 1891:
View attachment 561219
Yes I did see that and , to me , that confirms that the person named in 1890 under unknown and Emma woods cant be a half brother , because both parents (seemingly) are alive

It is a little confusing at the moment. ie I had thought that Isaac had passed and Emma had William . But there is another child born in 1891 to Isaac and Emma in 1891 (Harriet May )
 

35Daicos

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Yes I did see that and , to me , that confirms that the person named in 1890 under unknown and Emma woods cant be a half brother , because both parents (seemingly) are alive

It is a little confusing at the moment. ie I had thought that Isaac had passed and Emma had William . But there is another child born in 1891 to Isaac and Emma in 1891 (Harriet May )
There's a few Isaac Woods buried at cemeteries in the Geelong district (where Eastern Cemetery is) but none appear to be the correct one. So when the father died is a mystery.
 

the croucher

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I don't know if this helps or not, but it mentions a third son of (seemingly) those parents dying in 1891:
View attachment 561219
In the best roundabout way, that notice could be one of the pieces that clinches it !

I searched Vic BDMs and Ancestry family trees for all refs to an Emma Lewis marrying a male with given name Isaac but not worrying about the surname. Both sources showed up Emma Lewis m Isaac Henry Wood BURGES/S.
Ancestry trees have the 6-y-o John Thomas as part of that family. They also have William Cross as the given names for a son born in 1881, as per earlier posts on this subject. "Ike" Wood/s Burgess is also shown as in that family.

The Burgess surname so often associated with this family otherwise listed as Woods,
appears to link back to a George Burgess (convict transported to Australia).

This match review for Geelong v Collingwood 12 June 1909 match includes comment on the changes Geelong made to the team:
"Woods, a brother of the old forward player [meaning Ike Woods], and Bowey, who played a year or two ago, filled the vacancies."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10708076

I think that William Cross Woods [Burgess ?] b1881 is the Geelong player we are after.

I know the page from the player's register shows the name as William Henry Woods, but I notice that the player immediately above also has given names of William Henry. Given that the player's register appears to have been compiled years/even perhaps decades later (and that we are aware of a range of errors within it) then I think it should be treated as a useful starting guide, but not considered as definite proof. In addition, the 1890 William Henry Woods has no father listed, and we cannot find ref to brothers or half-brothers to fit the scenario hoped for by AFL House.
 
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GreyCrow

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Given the above William Cross Woods is buried at Geelong eastern Cemetery COE section

Service date 5/8/1959 Death date given as 3rd August 1959

http://mapping.gct.net.au:8080/

Cemetery Geelong Eastern Cemetery
Location EAS-COE-14-807-020
Section Church Of England
Row 14
Grave 020
Register # 24326
Surname Woods
Given Names William Cross
Service Date 05 Aug 1959
Date of Birth
Date of Death 03 Aug 1959
Age 78 Y
 

35Daicos

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Again, not sure if this is useful or not (or has been brought up/noticed before!!) but this search has Isaac Henry Woods (born Geelong 1907 & died Geelong 1959) who has William Cross Woods as a father:

Born in Geelong, Aus, Victoria, Australia on 1907 to William Cross Woods andAlice Adeline Bray. Isaac Henry Woods married Matilda Elaine Marshall. He passed away on 1959 in Geelong, Aus, Victoria, Australia.
==========================================================

Also, Emma Wood Burgess died in 1892 (aged 36) and was buried at Geelong Eastern Cemetery.
 
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the croucher

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Again, not sure if this is useful or not (or has been brought up/noticed before!!) but this search has Isaac Henry Woods (born Geelong 1907 & died Geelong 1959) who has William Cross Woods as a father:

Born in Geelong, Aus, Victoria, Australia on 1907 to William Cross Woods andAlice Adeline Bray. Isaac Henry Woods married Matilda Elaine Marshall. He passed away on 1959 in Geelong, Aus, Victoria, Australia.
==========================================================

Also, Emma Wood Burgess died in 1892 (aged 36) and was buried at Geelong Eastern Cemetery.
I have found Isaac snr re-marrying a few years later and that has given ref to a confirmed date of death for him.
Isaac Hy Wood BURGESS is listed on Vic BDMs as marrying Annie Galvin in 1896.
Isaac Henry Woods (aged 78) found in Geelong Cemeteries search with burial service on 19 Dec 1934 - register# 14883.
In same plot location is Annie Ellen Woods, she died (aged 75) on 19 May 1943 - register# 18124.

Male children born to that second marriage (and therefore half-brothers to Ike Woods and William Cross Woods)
are Alfred James Burgess b 1897 and Thomas Arthur b 1904.
 

35Daicos

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Male children born to that second marriage (and therefore half-brothers to Ike Woods and William Cross Woods) are Alfred James Burgess b 1897 and Thomas Arthur b 1904.
Alfred James Woods died in 1950 (aged 53) and was buried at Geelong (Eastern Cemetery). I can't find him in the newspapers, but seems to be him.

Event Death
Event registration number 20886
Registration year 1950

Personal information

Family name WOODS
Given names Alfred James
Sex Male
Father's name WOODS Isaac Henry
Mother's name Ann (Unknown)
Place of birth GEELONG
Place of death GEELONG EAST
Age 53
 

GreyCrow

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Updated 21 September 2018


<snip> still to be found
6 *Desmond 'Des' Clyde Bell b:23/5/1923 Melb 1946-1948 alive in 2016
7 *Ronald "Ron" Arthur Bickley b:21/10/1926 Fitz 1949-1951 alive #post 561 April 2 2018
13 *Alfred Joseph Callick b:14/8/1925 SthMelb 1943,1946-1950 alive in 2016
32 *Harry Leslie "Les" Gardner b:30/9/1923 StK 1947 alive 2014
36 *Gordon Stanley Green b:31/5/1925 NthMelb 1942 alive in 2017
68 *James "Jim" Malone b:13/11/1925 NthMelb 1945-52 still living as of March 29 2018
111 *Lionel Charles Upton b:3/10/1924 NthMelb 1948 alive Aug 2017


11 Henry "Harry" John Brown b:16/10/1903 St Kilda 1927
12 Samuel Otto John Buck b:15/11/1876 Carlton 1897
18 Jack Louis Cliff b:23/5/1919 StK 1940-42
21 Eugene Francis "Frank" Corby b:24/12/1924 Coll:1948
22 Frederick "Fred" Rowland Coulsell b:17/12/1905 Nth:1927,Ess 1931
23 Robert "Bobby" Ritchie Craig b:29/3/1882 Melb 1902
33 James "Jimmy" Gaynor b:17/5/1877 Carl 1904
34 Maxwell "Max" Herbert Glass b:2/10/1925 Sth 1945
39 Roger"Bill" Musgrove Hearn b:4/3/1914 Rich 1935
40 Edward "Ted" Page Heffernan b:16/5/1869 Carl 1897
49 Charles "Charlie" Herbert Jenkins b:17/6/1878 Fitz 1898
52 *Geoffrey John Kerr b:7/4/1925 Stk 1945;1947
53 *James "Jim" Francis Kirby b:21/12/1922 NthM 1946
54 Edmund Kirwin b:31/3/1876 StKilda 1898
59 William "Billy" Francis Roy Leahy b:7/3/1911 Foots 1934-1936
60 Thomas "Tom" Francis Lee b:11/12/1874 Coll 1897-98
63 George Lockwood b:6/12/1872 Geel 1899-1901,Coll 1902-04
71 John "Joe" Albert Marchant b:11/9/1884 StKilda 1904
72 Joseph "Joe" Thomas Marr b:9/08/1880 Carlton1900-02, Ess:1903 Died Prior 1918
74 Charlie McCartney b:26/2/1874 SthMelb 1897,Ess 1899
75 *James "Jim" Kenneth McDonald b:24/6/1916 Melb 1942
76 Patrick "Paddy" John McDonald b:27/3/1897 Ess 1918-19
78 John "Jack" James McKenzie b:19/8/1908 Ess 1929
84 Alfred "Alf" Carl Frank Neeson b:15/6/1914 Fitz 1935-36, Haw 1936-38
87 Michael "Mick" Joseph O'Hagan b:22/1/1878 StK 1897
88 *George Henry Prismall b:10/3/1915 Ess 1935
89 *Robert "Bob" Reid b:8/6/1924 Footscray 1948-49
90 Samuel "Sam" Alexander Reid b:17/6/1872 Carlton 1897
94 Archibald Robinson b:9/7/1890 Richmond 1911
95 Raymond Paul Ross b:2/5/1900 Ess 1921
97 Alan James "Ginger" Ryan b:26/9/1909 Melb 1932-33,Coll 1934-38
103 James "Jim" William Smith b:11/2/1887 Sth 1906
105 *Stanley Vincent Smith b:17/4/1925 Coll 1947-50
110 James "Jim" Scott Sutherland b:10/5/1900 Sth 1924
114 Tom Wellington b:27/10/1894 Melb 1912-13
116 *Albert "Alby" Joseph Williams b:3/8/1916 NthMelb 1943
117 William "Billy" Francis Williams b:2/5/1888 StKilda 1907
118 William "Bill" Henry Woods b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909

I think it helps to have them separated and also on the last page ( for now)

Waiting for confirmation but likely solved
83 James "Jim" Reginald Morton b:25/10/1905 Nth 1927 As Joseph
99 John "Johnny" Patrick Ryan b:18/9/1938 Rich 1959 likely still alive
47 *Albert "Bert" Thomas James b:5/6/1923 Rich 1947 #597 confirmation needed
73 *John "Jack" Llewellen Matthews b:22/10/1914 -27/10/1994 NthMelb 1941 #604 confirmation needed


Completed
119 Charles William Young b:10/10/1918- WW2 Nominal Roll says 1917 Fitzroy 1937 died 22/3/1969
93 Albert Tasman Roberts b:18/8/1901 Fitz 1928 #post 484
51 William "Bill" John Kenny b:30/7/1897 Sth Melb1919
82 Walter "Wally" Hensen Miller b:21/10/1917 Fitz 1943-45
passed away 1992 #post 506-508
108 Horace "Horrie" Stewart b:29/5/1871 Ess 1898 As noted #Post 552 by WHL
69 *Joseph "Joe" Malone b:4/2/1924 NthMelb 1946-47 March 24 2018 as noted by rbartlett
57 Reginald John "Jack" Law b:18/7/1924 -26/1/2018 Foots 1943-44 Herald notice 31/1/2018
16 *Milton Clark b:27/6/1922 Ess 1945 died June 2018 Herald notice 21/6/2018
65 James "Jim" Gordon Lyons b:5/4/1876 Carlton 1897-98 DOD 26/12/1934 Inaccuracies Spreadsheet
25 Richard James Day b:17/2/1920 Nth:1943 DOD 5 August 1997 Inaccuracies Spreadsheet
77 Robert "Rhoda" Ernest McDonald b:29/4/1878 Coll 1897, Carl 1901,Rich(VFA) 1901-07 Until Fuurther Information surfaces Noted As Richard 4/12/1937 Liverpool NSW
 

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rbartlett

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While chasing Archibald Robinson

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10899703 season starts with Robinson North melbourne junior

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article142943790 named as Robertson for game as North Melbourne Junior

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196205577 dropped as Robertson

rbartlett can you look through your notes and ascertain which it is? I see Jim Main and Russel Holmesby have credited A Robertson as the 1 gamer in 1911. ( my edition a dinosaur 1992 (maybe 1st printing:p )
We know Richmond Annual Report #328 has 'Robinson' in their games listing, but just wanted to say Punch lists him as 'Robertson' http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article175612468 and The Australasian lists him as Robertson. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article142943790.
TigerlandArchive which took its original data from Paul Hogan's Richmond book says he came from Nth Melbourne Juniors (which we know), and then went to 'Melbourne City' in 1912
 

35Daicos

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We know Richmond Annual Report #328 has 'Robinson' in their games listing, but just wanted to say Punch lists him as 'Robertson' http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article175612468 and The Australasian lists him as Robertson. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article142943790.
TigerlandArchive which took its original data from Paul Hogan's Richmond book says he came from Nth Melbourne Juniors (which we know), and then went to 'Melbourne City' in 1912
Strangely, The Age has him as A. Robertson going from Richmond to Melbourne City in the League Permits section, but he's A. Robinson in the Association section.

This 1912 article in the Williamstown Chronicle probably refers to him:
upload_2018-9-22_20-45-2.png
 

rbartlett

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*ALSO POSTED IN INACCURACIES THREAD*

Response received from AFL Rogers regarding our early September submissions.
His response below. The bold section as what I have added in this post.
Good news all round it seems. It seems he has had a change of heart for William Woods. See below.

So changes will need to be made to some BFdobdod posts/ wikis/afltables/etc etc. Those who have that responsibility do your thing.
I'll update the online spreadsheet in 24-48hrs.

Hi Rhett .....
So, the genealogical section of the Library - in a new location - is open again finally; went there over the weekend.


John "Jack" Llewellen Matthews *RESOLVED*
- Matthews/Mathews
that's all resolved now, with an exact date-of-death.
Perhaps the easiest, is to send you a copy of my email to Barb Cullen.
It follows this.
(where I mention, at the end -
about the possibility of Robert, and John Lewellen, being brothers;
it turned out that they weren't.)

Extract from email to Barb Cullen below

Hi Barb,

I'm writing to you about -
John Lewellen Mathews.

Note the spelling -
confirmed that it's Mathews with a single t. Not Matthews with a double t. The latter, is how he has always been in our records.
Now we've been able to amend it.

He is the North Melbourne player of 1941 with 3 games and 1 goal.
It was discovered that he was in the Mersey Vale Cemetery in Devonport, Tasmania.
Through them, I was able to contact the daughter (name and ph number withheld)
(if you want to make further contact with her).
I actually just had text messages with her.
The good thing, was that she was able to confirm a date of death of
25 October 1994.


Tom Wellington b:27/10/1894, Melb 1912-13 *RESOLVED*

- Wellington.
In your notes, it noted:
dying July 25 1955.
However it also said,
Interred on 25/7/1955.

I thought something wasn't quite right there, so checking the SA Card Index, for Deaths 1916 to '72,
it turns out that the actual date-of-death was 17/7/1955.

I've gone with this;
reading all your arguments put forward in the text, I tend to agree this has to be the Tom Wellington who was the Melb player.


William "Bill" Henry Woods , b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909 *RESPONSE REQUIRED FROM BF GUYS*

- Woods.
Just further on what I said a few days ago, I had another look;
and I'd say that wasn't quite right, about William
born 1890 at East Bellarine (Portarlington), (who turned out to be your "Little Bill") having a family connection to Ike.

Ike as we know, was
Isaac Henry
born 1879 at Geelong to parents:
Isaac/Emma Lewis.

If we take it as a given that William Henry, player of 1909, was the half-brother of Ike -
and Col says this IS the case -
then the 1890 born at South Melbourne does in fact seem to be the man; with parents:
unknown/Emma Woods -
this Emma Woods, being Emma Lewis of the Ike parentage.

Can you tell your guys this;
it does seem this chap, is the right person.
Hopefully his death will still turn up somewhere!


RHODA MCDONALD *RESPONSE REQUIRED FROM BF GUYS*

- Rhoda McDonald.
Have your guys had a chance to contemplate yet, what I said a few days ago please?
Basically, if you guys are of the opinion that Robert/Richard is the same man, we'll go with the
4/12/37 date-of-death.


REGINALD HORACE LYONS
- Lyons
Should get the birth details of the "new" Horrie Lyons very soon.

WALTER JOHNSTON - that new Richmond player of 1908.
Rodgers a couple of weeks ago wrote this about Johnston's WW2 service and death

- so, on to WW2, and this is the sticky part.
Yes, there's no doubt he's there, as No. V5088.
(and - wow! - making himself 12 years younger, in enlisting!! ;
we've had endless cases, like that! - but maybe 12 years is close to
"the record" - haha)
But the problem is, if you look at his WW2 Nominal Roll record,
you see a date of death!
I know it's after the date of discharge, 29/6/43 compared to 18/7/46.

But, have a look at Harold Zucker of Hawthorn.
26/11/45 compared to 7/6/47.
In notes for him, years ago, I noted:
died 7/6/47 of lung cancer. Has a WW2 Roll-of-honour card at the Library.
Cause-of-death on card: illness. Even though date-of-death was after discharge,
the fact he has a roll-of-honour card, means we have to record his death as OAS.


So Rodgers went to the State Library to search for Walter Johnston's roll-of-honour card
and found one, and therefore believes his death to be OAS (i can't remember what that stands for), but basically his death is as a result of the war. And hence is classified as a War death. More info here https://www.awm.gov.au/index.php/commemoration/honour-rolls/roll-of-honour


- finally Walter Johnston
as you advised, I still haven't mentioned this to Col, Barb -
or in fact anyone.
At the Library, as I feared! -
he does have a WW2
Roll-of-Honour Card.
See photo (at end).
As far as I can see, there is no
Cause of Death, entered in,
on the card.
I'll put this one back in your court, for the time being.
I presume this aspect will need to be in your submission to the Richmond historical committee.
I'll just keep it on ice, until you advise me further.
 
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GreyCrow

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Updated 23 September 2018


<snip> still to be found
6 *Desmond 'Des' Clyde Bell b:23/5/1923 Melb 1946-1948 alive in 2016
7 *Ronald "Ron" Arthur Bickley b:21/10/1926 Fitz 1949-1951 alive #post 561 April 2 2018
13 *Alfred Joseph Callick b:14/8/1925 SthMelb 1943,1946-1950 alive in 2016
32 *Harry Leslie "Les" Gardner b:30/9/1923 StK 1947 alive 2014
36 *Gordon Stanley Green b:31/5/1925 NthMelb 1942 alive in 2017
68 *James "Jim" Malone b:13/11/1925 NthMelb 1945-52 still living as of March 29 2018
111 *Lionel Charles Upton b:3/10/1924 NthMelb 1948 alive Aug 2017


11 Henry "Harry" John Brown b:16/10/1903 St Kilda 1927
12 Samuel Otto John Buck b:15/11/1876 Carlton 1897
18 Jack Louis Cliff b:23/5/1919 StK 1940-42
21 Eugene Francis "Frank" Corby b:24/12/1924 Coll:1948
22 Frederick "Fred" Rowland Coulsell b:17/12/1905 Nth:1927,Ess 1931
23 Robert "Bobby" Ritchie Craig b:29/3/1882 Melb 1902
33 James "Jimmy" Gaynor b:17/5/1877 Carl 1904
34 Maxwell "Max" Herbert Glass b:2/10/1925 Sth 1945
39 Roger"Bill" Musgrove Hearn b:4/3/1914 Rich 1935
40 Edward "Ted" Page Heffernan b:16/5/1869 Carl 1897
49 Charles "Charlie" Herbert Jenkins b:17/6/1878 Fitz 1898
52 *Geoffrey John Kerr b:7/4/1925 Stk 1945;1947
53 *James "Jim" Francis Kirby b:21/12/1922 NthM 1946
54 Edmund Kirwin b:31/3/1876 StKilda 1898
59 William "Billy" Francis Roy Leahy b:7/3/1911 Foots 1934-1936
60 Thomas "Tom" Francis Lee b:11/12/1874 Coll 1897-98
63 George Lockwood b:6/12/1872 Geel 1899-1901,Coll 1902-04
71 John "Joe" Albert Marchant b:11/9/1884 StKilda 1904
72 Joseph "Joe" Thomas Marr b:9/08/1880 Carlton1900-02, Ess:1903 Died Prior 1918
74 Charlie McCartney b:26/2/1874 SthMelb 1897,Ess 1899
75 *James "Jim" Kenneth McDonald b:24/6/1916 Melb 1942
76 Patrick "Paddy" John McDonald b:27/3/1897 Ess 1918-19
78 John "Jack" James McKenzie b:19/8/1908 Ess 1929
84 Alfred "Alf" Carl Frank Neeson b:15/6/1914 Fitz 1935-36, Haw 1936-38
87 Michael "Mick" Joseph O'Hagan b:22/1/1878 StK 1897
88 *George Henry Prismall b:10/3/1915 Ess 1935
89 *Robert "Bob" Reid b:8/6/1924 Footscray 1948-49
90 Samuel "Sam" Alexander Reid b:17/6/1872 Carlton 1897
94 Archibald Robinson b:9/7/1890 Richmond 1911
95 Raymond Paul Ross b:2/5/1900 Ess 1921
97 Alan James "Ginger" Ryan b:26/9/1909 Melb 1932-33,Coll 1934-38
103 James "Jim" William Smith b:11/2/1887 Sth 1906
105 *Stanley Vincent Smith b:17/4/1925 Coll 1947-50
110 James "Jim" Scott Sutherland b:10/5/1900 Sth 1924
116 *Albert "Alby" Joseph Williams b:3/8/1916 NthMelb 1943
117 William "Billy" Francis Williams b:2/5/1888 StKilda 1907
118 William "Bill" Henry Woods b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909

I think it helps to have them separated and also on the last page ( for now)

Waiting for confirmation but likely solved
83 James "Jim" Reginald Morton b:25/10/1905 Nth 1927 As Joseph
99 John "Johnny" Patrick Ryan b:18/9/1938 Rich 1959 likely still alive
47 *Albert "Bert" Thomas James b:5/6/1923 Rich 1947 #597 confirmation needed


Completed
119 Charles William Young b:10/10/1918- WW2 Nominal Roll says 1917 Fitzroy 1937 died 22/3/1969
93 Albert Tasman Roberts b:18/8/1901 Fitz 1928 #post 484
51 William "Bill" John Kenny b:30/7/1897 Sth Melb1919
82 Walter "Wally" Hensen Miller b:21/10/1917 Fitz 1943-45
passed away 1992 #post 506-508
108 Horace "Horrie" Stewart b:29/5/1871 Ess 1898 As noted #Post 552 by WHL
69 *Joseph "Joe" Malone b:4/2/1924 NthMelb 1946-47 March 24 2018 as noted by rbartlett
57 Reginald John "Jack" Law b:18/7/1924 -26/1/2018 Foots 1943-44 Herald notice 31/1/2018
16 *Milton Clark b:27/6/1922 Ess 1945 died June 2018 Herald notice 21/6/2018
65 James "Jim" Gordon Lyons b:5/4/1876 Carlton 1897-98 DOD 26/12/1934 Inaccuracies Spreadsheet
25 Richard James Day b:17/2/1920 Nth:1943 DOD 5 August 1997 Inaccuracies Spreadsheet
77 Robert "Rhoda" Ernest McDonald b:29/4/1878 Coll 1897, Carl 1901,Rich(VFA) 1901-07 Until Fuurther Information surfaces Noted As Richard 4/12/1937 Liverpool NSW
114 Tom Wellington b:27/10/1894 Melb 1912-13 17/7/1955 #Post 664

73 *John "Jack" Llewellen Matthews b:22/10/1914 -27/10/1994 NthMelb 1941 #604 confirmation needed #Post 664
 

rbartlett

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Btw I've gone completely cuckoo trying to get my head around Rhoda McDonald and his place in Richmond's history.

On prev BF posts we've agreed him to be Richmond VFA 1902-1907 right? and we ended up agreeing he was also the Richmond VFL 1908 player , right?

But we said he then went to Footscray and this 1911 clearance has him as E.A.McDonald. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article196206912

And, then there's a separate 1903 Richmond VFA player called E. McDonald. Right?

Or have I got that completely around the wrong way and we only think Rhoda McDonald was with Richmond for 1903 season?

If we agreed that Rhoda McDonald played for Coll, then Carl, then Richmond 1902-1908, then the current player record for the Richmond 1908 VFL player - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_McDonald is wrong, and needs to be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhoda_McDonald.
Have I got that right ? Or I've got my wires crossed.
 
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35Daicos

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Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
Can I just ask what full name does the Encycl of League Football have for Jack McConchie (Rich/Fitz) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_McConchie
I've come across a relative who says his full name was David John "Jock" McConchie, but the wiki doesn't say that, nor does TA, and I don't have EoLF on me.
David 'Jack' McConchie (in the book).

There's a few cases of him being called Jack McConchie on Trove, but many more where it's Jock (including when he got married) or "Jock". The Football Record has Jack McConchie on one occasion, and the AFL Historical Statistics website had him as Jack.

From BDM Vic.
Event Birth
Event registration number 14416
Registration year 1910

Personal information
Family name MCCONCHIE
Given names David John
Sex Male
Father's name David Roy
Mother's name Ethel Ellen (Rudd)
Place of birth RICHMOND
 
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ThePope

Premiership Player
Jun 23, 2003
3,488
134
32º 03'S 115º 45'E
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
South Fremantle
One possible good part of Wikipedia articles on players is that family or friends can sometimes update a player's articles with a death date. Or it could be random vandalism. Hope it more column A than column B, but you never know.

Searching those articles which have a date of death in the info box (which often gets picked up somehow by wikidata), but not the year of death category (indicative of inexperienced users editing Wikipedia), I've found 4 players who someone thinks has died. Not sure if they are all accurate, or if the AFL knows of all of these:
  1. Eric Vinar 8 games Fitzroy, 1964, brother of Paul. 31 May 1942 - 13 Feb 2016. Cemetery record exists for Eric Richard Vinar at http://www.gmct.com.au/deceased-search.aspx, but DOB listed is 31 May 1941, not 1942. Given he was born in Czechoslovakia, confirming which one is right might be difficult.
  2. Gavin Smith (Australian footballer) 1 game Fitzroy, 1967. In June this year, someone (IP address is from Yallourn) changed the DOB and DOD to 25 Feb 1948 (Yallourn) - 15 Sep 1995 (Warragul) from the AFL Tables/Australian Football date of birth of 22 Sep 1947. Can't find any matching records at GMCT, SMCT, Yallourn or Warragul Cemeteries and 95 is the middle of the online blackhole.
  3. Terry O'Mara 20 games Fitzroy, 1963-65. 24 Feb 1941 - 13 Aug 1998. Cemetery record exists at http://www.gmct.com.au/deceased-search.aspx, but no DOB to confirm same person
  4. Bill Joiner 13 games, Haw 1961–62. 29 August 1939- 4 Sep 2017 Death notice matches the footballer's DOB, appears to have moved to Mandurah, WA.
Can someone ask the AFL if these are known deaths, and if confirmed, let AustralianFootball.com know about them to update their records.

Bruce Cummins was also a user change, but AustralianFootball.com already had that DOD, so I think that one is probably known.
 

the croucher

Club Legend
Oct 22, 2000
1,045
663
Launceston
AFL Club
Geelong
One possible good part of Wikipedia articles on players is that family or friends can sometimes update a player's articles with a death date. Or it could be random vandalism. Hope it more column A than column B, but you never know.

Searching those articles which have a date of death in the info box (which often gets picked up somehow by wikidata), but not the year of death category (indicative of inexperienced users editing Wikipedia), I've found 4 players who someone thinks has died. Not sure if they are all accurate, or if the AFL knows of all of these:
  1. Eric Vinar 8 games Fitzroy, 1964, brother of Paul. 31 May 1942 - 13 Feb 2016. Cemetery record exists for Eric Richard Vinar at http://www.gmct.com.au/deceased-search.aspx, but DOB listed is 31 May 1941, not 1942. Given he was born in Czechoslovakia, confirming which one is right might be difficult. <snip>
National Archives immigration records have an Erich Vinar listed with DOB as 31 May 1941,
so I think that is the correct one to use.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=4752334
 

the croucher

Club Legend
Oct 22, 2000
1,045
663
Launceston
AFL Club
Geelong
Hi all. Just an alert to a message spotted on the Vic BDMs site:

" Planned outage
There is a scheduled Building Power Shutdown from Friday 05 October 2018 4pm until Saturday 06 October 2018 8pm.

During this time there will be NO ACCESS to BDM online services.

We apologise for the inconvenience. "
 

GreyCrow

Hall of Famer
Mar 21, 2016
45,334
65,203
Down South Corvus Tristis
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Sturt, Redskins , White Sox
Billy Woods continues ( I think) to throw up a conundrum

William Cross Woods is buried in the same grave as Alice Adeline Woods.

Cemetery Geelong Eastern Cemetery
Location EAS-COE-14-807-020
Section Church Of England
Row 14
Grave 020
Register # 24086
Surname Woods
Given Names Alice Adeline
Service Date 08 Dec 1958
Date of Birth
Date of Death 06 Dec 1958
Age 80 Y
Other Deceased in Location
Woods, William Cross


Yet William Henry Woods marries Adelina Alice McLean in 1915.

Event registration number 824 Registration year 1915 Personal information Family name MCLEAN Given names Adelina Alice

Spouse's family name WOODS Spouse's given names Wm Hy

Further confusing the issue is Alices age. In the above it is given as 80 (and I am open to information being incorrect) that equates to an 1878 birth. Yet she is born in 1886

Event registration number 22167 Registration year 1886 Personal information Family name MCLEAN Given names Adelina Alice

Father's name James Mother's name Charlotte Annie (Hare) Place of birth MELB

I can not see another Adeline Alice or Alice Adeline that marries a Woods or a Wood

Hmm thoughts?

There is a further possibility

Emma Rebecca Woods born 1859 to William and Judith dies 1948 unmarried. There is no death notice ( I can see so far). She is the right age to have a child in 1890
 

the croucher

Club Legend
Oct 22, 2000
1,045
663
Launceston
AFL Club
Geelong
I have some concerns over this birthdate. If the following information is true then this must put in doubt the 1877 birth.

If we accept the 1877 birth date , then the only James Gaynor born in that year is the following
EventBirth
Event registration number13868
Registration year1877
Personal information
Family name GAYNOR
Given names James

SexUnknown

Father's name Thomas
Mother's name Bridget (Sheehy)
Place of birth CARLTON


Then the following Obit from November 1900 is a concern.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9569091

GAYNOR.—On the 16th November, at Duncaha,Co. Limerick, Ireland, James Francis, the beloved and only son of Thos. and Bridget Gaynor, 434 Madeline- street, Carlton, Victoria, aged 23 years and 6 months. R.I.P.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article191485469

Not certain the above is related but I would be happy to accept they are. I just dont see a sportsman in this tale

The bolded concerned me until a search of the death records shows all the sons born to Thomas and Bridget died prior to 1900 except James. The 23/6 puts the birth date at May 1877. , which is as noted above. Coincidence?

This does preclude the possibility of James being born elsewhere and the above a completely different person.

I also have concerns there seems to be little mention of a Gaynor playing any form of football that I can see. there is a John Gaynor strongly connected to the Maldon area but nothing at Carlton or the Carlton Districts team. That doesnt say I have looked everywhere.

Maybe something to have others comment on
Yes, looking back at this "player" I too think he needs to be added to our spreadsheet record for AFL updates.

Not only does the info you posted here (and I in mid 2017 on another thread too confirming we had seen same records)
clearly indicate that the DOB needs to be shown as unknown, but I have just found via Ancestry a headstone transcription entry which confirms the 1877-1900 James Gaynor as being in family as we thought:
"Erected by Thomas GAYNOR in memory of his children Mary Ann Josephine, died 24 Mar 1892, age 20 years 3 weeks Patrick, died 3 Oct 1891, age 16 yrs 8 mths Cornelius, died 6 Aug 1890, age 12 yrs 2 mths Thomas, died 14 Jan 1877, age 11 mths William, died 8 Feb 1875, age 17 mths and his eldest son John Joseph GAYNOR died 10 Apr 1894, age 23 yrs 11 mths also James Francis died Duncaha, Ireland, 16 Nov 1900, age 23 years 6 mths also of their father Thomas GAYNOR native of Kildimo, Co. Limerick, Ireland died 18 Sep 1918, age 81 years also his wife Brigid native of Co. Limerick, Ireland died 7 Feb 1921, age 73 yrs."

The other issue I have with this player is a common one for the VFL of this era - where is the evidence that a player named Gaynor played for Carlton 1904 ? No contemporary press report that I have seen shows his name at all.

Hopefully one day in the future arrangements can be made to discuss with Herald & Weekly Times archives, visits to check original Herald issues which include "final edition" Saturday night issues including team lists !!
 

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
6,321
7,274
Adelaide
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
Yes, looking back at this "player" I too think he needs to be added to our spreadsheet record for AFL updates.

Not only does the info you posted here (and I in mid 2017 on another thread too confirming we had seen same records)
clearly indicate that the DOB needs to be shown as unknown, but I have just found via Ancestry a headstone transcription entry which confirms the 1877-1900 James Gaynor as being in family as we thought:
"Erected by Thomas GAYNOR in memory of his children Mary Ann Josephine, died 24 Mar 1892, age 20 years 3 weeks Patrick, died 3 Oct 1891, age 16 yrs 8 mths Cornelius, died 6 Aug 1890, age 12 yrs 2 mths Thomas, died 14 Jan 1877, age 11 mths William, died 8 Feb 1875, age 17 mths and his eldest son John Joseph GAYNOR died 10 Apr 1894, age 23 yrs 11 mths also James Francis died Duncaha, Ireland, 16 Nov 1900, age 23 years 6 mths also of their father Thomas GAYNOR native of Kildimo, Co. Limerick, Ireland died 18 Sep 1918, age 81 years also his wife Brigid native of Co. Limerick, Ireland died 7 Feb 1921, age 73 yrs."

The other issue I have with this player is a common one for the VFL of this era - where is the evidence that a player named Gaynor played for Carlton 1904 ? No contemporary press report that I have seen shows his name at all.

Hopefully one day in the future arrangements can be made to discuss with Herald & Weekly Times archives, visits to check original Herald issues which include "final edition" Saturday night issues including team lists !!
The Encyclopedia has a DOB for Jimmy Gaynor of 22 May 1875, which obviously doesn't match what we see in the "official records". Perhaps they have made a change to this in recent times?
 
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