Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[ThePope]

I think I've found a DOD for a player not on the list. For some reason, 4 years ago an anonymous editor changed Kevin Hart's (Fitzroy 1947-49, 19 games, Carlton 1950, 5 games) Wikipedia article to say "date of death unknown". As he was born in 1927, I thought this was strange, as he could well be still alive. So I started checking, and found an obituary in The Age and a record at GMCT of his cremation that say he died on 6 October 2016.

HART Kevin Francis 21/04/1927 06/10/2016 Lilydale Memorial Park Cremation 12/10/2016​

Whilst the obit doesn't mention his football career, the cremation record does match the full name and date of birth that we have. I've tweeted this info to Tony De Bolfo, Blueseum, Spirit of Carlton, the Brisbane Lions and the FBL Historical Society but haven't had any acknowledgement.

Also, this article says that he is the brother of Eddie Hart, and hence Don and Arthur too, which doesn't seem to have been recorded previously.

 

[the croucher]

I think I've found a DOD for a player not on the list. For some reason, 4 years ago an anonymous editor changed Kevin Hart's (Fitzroy 1947-49, 19 games, Carlton 1950, 5 games) Wikipedia article to say "date of death unknown". As he was born in 1927, I thought this was strange, as he could well be still alive. So I started checking, and found an obituary in The Age and a record at GMCT of his cremation that say he died on 6 October 2016.

HART Kevin Francis 21/04/1927 06/10/2016 Lilydale Memorial Park Cremation 12/10/2016​

Whilst the obit doesn't mention his football career, the cremation record does match the full name and date of birth that we have. I've tweeted this info to Tony De Bolfo, Blueseum, Spirit of Carlton, the Brisbane Lions and the FBL Historical Society but haven't had any acknowledgement.

Also, this article says that he is the brother of Eddie Hart, and hence Don and Arthur too, which doesn't seem to have been recorded previously.

Mmm..the "brothers" matter might need more investigation methinks.

This article from early August 1947, when Kevin was just starting out with Fitzroy,
states that they are not related at all.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206042352

 

[rbartlett]

Rogers has sent me the list of outstanding DOB and DOD - so I'll wash them against the post #565
In the meantime he has written this:
"Is it possible please - if they are going to focus on anything - that it be Ahern/Ahearn. Because we just have nothing on him right now!. One school of though is that he's born in Ireland as William Ahern, or Ahearn. Around 1870-75 ? give or take.
To match debuting or showing up at Preston in 1893 (Before the Carlton 1897). If such a birth could be matched to a later Australia, hopefully Victorian, death - well, great!

 

[GreyCrow]

Rogers has sent me the list of outstanding DOB and DOD - so I'll wash them against the post #565
In the meantime he has written this:
"Is it possible please - if they are going to focus on anything - that it be Ahern/Ahearn. Because we just have nothing on him right now!. One school of though is that he's born in Ireland as William Ahern, or Ahearn. Around 1870-75 ? give or take.
To match debuting or showing up at Preston in 1893 (Before the Carlton 1897). If such a birth could be matched to a later Australia, hopefully Victorian, death - well, great!

(Melbourne Only)
1895 Sands&McDougall has a William J Ahern Sydney Rd Coburg 1895
1900 Sands&McDougall has a William J Ahern Ross St Coburg
No entry 1905
Nor 1910

An interesting story linking (possibly) the above http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199405296
The prequel http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article67425152 *note Ahearn

On Wednesday the Governor received the report of the Public Service Board, of which Mr'. Goldsmith, P.M., was chairman, which was appointed to inquire into tho charges preferred against Warder William Ahern, namely,, being absent without leave, living beyond 400 yards from the prison, and with being pecuniarily interested in a certain hotel, contrary to the' regulations. The board found that, the charge had been sustained, and- Warder Ahern has accordingly,been dismissed the service.

2 things come to mind. I take the living beyond 400 yards to mean he is in 400 yards of Pentridge, which google tells me is in Coburg. It may explain his absence from 1905 records. Or is beyond 400 yards to mean he lives outside of that distance and is that still in the Coburg boundary? It seems Ross St is close to Pentridge, depending on the end of the street. It seems it is over 400 yards http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66823405

The other is the information on the hotel. Is there any record available of Hotels owned/managed at that time?


Ironically I cant find much on a sporting career

 

[the croucher]

Rogers has sent me the list of outstanding DOB and DOD - so I'll wash them against the post #565
In the meantime he has written this:
"Is it possible please - if they are going to focus on anything - that it be Ahern/Ahearn. Because we just have nothing on him right now!. One school of though is that he's born in Ireland as William Ahern, or Ahearn. Around 1870-75 ? give or take.
To match debuting or showing up at Preston in 1893 (Before the Carlton 1897). If such a birth could be matched to a later Australia, hopefully Victorian, death - well, great!

Well, I have been looking over the last few days through Trove, and also using the BigFooty "advanced search" mode; and cannot find any specific reference to a player named Ahern/Ahearn in a team list or match report or any other article having played in that Round 1 1897 match for Carlton.

He appears to be named as O'Hearn in a squad of 30 (20 to play in this era) the day before Round 1
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241136029

He is included in the squad from which the Round 2 team might have been chosen:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241122374

Does anyone know of a reference which confirms him actually playing in that first match ?

Until such evidence is found, I don't think I'll search any longer, 'cos I don't trust lists created by Campbell or anyone else 20, 30 or 40 years later [our research in last couple of years proving them so riddled with error].

It is a great pity that The Herald issues from that early VFL era currently available online rarely include the final evening editions which show the team lists for each match.

 

[rbartlett]

Well, after a brief conversation with Stephen Rodgers, I think we take the croucher advice and start this Ahern/Ahearn/O'Hearn back to scratch.
Rodgers tells me that Steve Williamson has been trying to crack this
"He was the one who suggested the possible link to Ireland.
We just know that he was rover in that Round 1, 1897 match;
and Steve believes he was the same man as at Preston in 1893."

Rodgers is going to chat with Steve next week to try to determine we he came across his full name etc, but I think in the meantime we take it all the way back to ground zero and start with the first question - did a player called Ahern/Ahearn/O'Hearn play in Rd 1 1897 for Carlton.

 

[rbartlett]

New
Stephen Rodgers email received tonight from Barb Cullen, regarding player Pat Kennedy - Haw/Carl (note the full name is also different)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Kennedy_(footballer,_born_1904)

Patrick Alphonsus Kennedy

"Dear Gentlemen
After chatting with the daughter of the above player she confirms that his date of birth was : 29 July 1903 NOT 12 May 1904. Date of Death : 21 August 1981 NOT 13 July 1972
He served in WW2 from 9 July 1942 where he was a surveyor, ending up on 29 July 1958 as a Major. He had a brother who was KIA in WW1.
The family think he was the first player recruited from Assumption before going to Newman College at Melb. University. He didn’t appear to have a nickname and was thought to be a right footer.
The family are related to Coach John Kennedy."

Rodgers then explains the reasoning behind the initial error thusly
"I think the situation can be explained this way:
Man No. 1

KENNEDY
Patrick Adrian Cattanach
b. 1904 at Cobram (No. 17018)
to parents
John Timothy/Mary Winifred Cattanach
died 1972 at Fitzroy aged 68 (No. 17168)


Man No. 2

KENNEDY
Patrick Alphonzo (death: Alphonsus)
b. 1903 at Cobram (No. 17007)
to parents
Daniel/Bridgit Noonan
died 1981 at Glen. aged 78 (No. 19597)

So it seems, we had Man No. 1, as the player, when we should in fact have had Man No. 2.

As a player, coming to Carlton in 1923, I had him as being recruited from:

University Blacks; prior to that: Newman College; prior to that: South Melb CYMS; prior to that: Cobram.

Incredible, don't you think, that both blokes were born at Cobram!"

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Nutting out Frederick Rowland Coulsell, seems that not one tree have a date of death though apparently it was in QLD where he supposedly died.

His wife was Marjory Susan Griffiths who was born in 1901 in Brunswick and died in Prahran in 1980 yet there are no dates for either.

 

[GreyCrow]

Nutting out Frederick Rowland Coulsell, seems that not one tree have a date of death though apparently it was in QLD where he supposedly died.

His wife was Marjory Susan Griffiths who was born in 1901 in Brunswick and died in Prahran in 1980 yet there are no dates for either.

Post 540 might help

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Nutting out Frederick Rowland Coulsell, seems that not one tree have a date of death though apparently it was in QLD where he supposedly died.

His wife was Marjory Susan Griffiths who was born in 1901 in Brunswick and died in Prahran in 1980 yet there are no dates for either.

She died on 24 May 1980 : see https://smct.org.au/deceasedsearch/result/450983
Unfortunately Fred is not in the same cemetery (although several of his family are)
Their children (as far as I can tell) were:
1. Allan Charles Coulsell (was in trouble with the law as a young man, later in life was a builder around Mt Eliza)
2. Elaine Marjory Coulsell (seems to have married Karl Oscar Glaser and lived in Sydney)
It is possible one or both of them are still alive but I've had no luck finding any current/recent details. I sent a couple of messages to family tree owners on Ancestry late last year in an effort to track down relatives but have had no responses....

 

[RedmanWasHere]

She died on 24 May 1980 : see https://smct.org.au/deceasedsearch/result/450983
Unfortunately Fred is not in the same cemetery (although several of his family are)
Their children (as far as I can tell) were:
1. Allan Charles Coulsell (was in trouble with the law as a young man, later in life was a builder around Mt Eliza)
2. Elaine Marjory Coulsell (seems to have married Karl Oscar Glaser and lived in Sydney)
It is possible one or both of them are still alive but I've had no luck finding any current/recent details. I sent a couple of messages to family tree owners on Ancestry late last year in an effort to track down relatives but have had no responses....

R.e. Marjory's DOD, I'm happy that there's FINALLY a resolved date for that.

How strange that is for Fred.
Unless the 2 of them split or their sides had a falling out then they should've been buried together.

Now to their kids.

Have you tried them on Facebook?

 

[GreyCrow]

For those looking for UK records the 1939 Register is available on Ancestry and this weekend for free (if it doesnt work from your au login try the uk login)

It's here! Start exploring the 1939 Register today on Ancestry: https://ancstry.me/2rtIzfY
Enjoy free access until Sunday 13th May.

 

[GreyCrow]

Law, Jack
18.7.1924 - 26.1.2018
The members, staff and directors of the Westgate Golf Club express deepest sympathy to Merle and family on the passing of our much loved long term member Jack.

Shall cross Reginald " Jack' Law off the list

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

New
Stephen Rodgers email received tonight from Barb Cullen, regarding player Pat Kennedy - Haw/Carl (note the full name is also different)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Kennedy_(footballer,_born_1904)

Patrick Alphonsus Kennedy

"Dear Gentlemen
After chatting with the daughter of the above player she confirms that his date of birth was : 29 July 1903 NOT 12 May 1904. Date of Death : 21 August 1981 NOT 13 July 1972
He served in WW2 from 9 July 1942 where he was a surveyor, ending up on 29 July 1958 as a Major. He had a brother who was KIA in WW1.
The family think he was the first player recruited from Assumption before going to Newman College at Melb. University. He didn’t appear to have a nickname and was thought to be a right footer.
The family are related to Coach John Kennedy."

Rodgers then explains the reasoning behind the initial error thusly
"I think the situation can be explained this way:
Man No. 1

KENNEDY
Patrick Adrian Cattanach
b. 1904 at Cobram (No. 17018)
to parents
John Timothy/Mary Winifred Cattanach
died 1972 at Fitzroy aged 68 (No. 17168)


Man No. 2

KENNEDY
Patrick Alphonzo (death: Alphonsus)
b. 1903 at Cobram (No. 17007)
to parents
Daniel/Bridgit Noonan
died 1981 at Glen. aged 78 (No. 19597)

So it seems, we had Man No. 1, as the player, when we should in fact have had Man No. 2.

As a player, coming to Carlton in 1923, I had him as being recruited from:

University Blacks; prior to that: Newman College; prior to that: South Melb CYMS; prior to that: Cobram.

Incredible, don't you think, that both blokes were born at Cobram!"

Have updated wikipedia now to reflect this change: Pat Kennedy (footballer, born_1903)
All online sources seem to reflect this now except australianfootball.com still has the "old" full name (but the correct dates)

 

[rbartlett]

Update from Rodgers:

Did I already mention? -
with William Joseph Ahern, player of 1897 -
all we could get was a baptized date of March 5, 1865 -
so in the end, we went for a
d-o-b of 3 days before;
so March 2.
We have everything else we need on him, as a player.

I'm just waiting - any day now - to get those 3 d-o-b's from Russell;
for Hayes
Dobson (Monk)
Richardson

In respect of that last one, that's
W.K.Richardson of course.
Any breakthroughs please, re the
"other Richardsons",
1901; and 1898.
Even if you guys say,
we think it could be this chap,
so-and-so :
we'll go with that for the time being.
We just need something!! -
anything!!

Russell, as you probably know, has just done a new Encyclopedia.
Too late for that, of course!!
But he's really hoping for a resolution too!!

 

[*Paul*]

I've had email from the grandson of Billy Harrison, who says he was born in 1883, but doesn't know day/month. He further divulges his DOD was 28 April 1949, not 30 May 1964 as wiki has it.

 

[35Daicos]

I've had email from the grandson of Billy Harrison, who says he was born in 1883, but doesn't know day/month. He further divulges his DOD was 28 April 1949, not 30 May 1964 as wiki has it.

This would be it; interesting that the papers say April 29 for his DOD:

HARRISON.—On April 29, at Prince Henry's Hospital, William, of 36 Christmas-street, Northcote, beloved husband of the late Amy Elizabeth, and loved father of William, Albert, Shirley (Mrs. Jolly) and Colin.
HARRISON.—On April 29, at Prince Henry's Hospital, William, dearly beloved daddy of Shirl and Chas., and dearest pa of Graham. Wherever we may be, you will always be with us, daddy, darling.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206068532

HARRISON.—On April 29, at Prince Henry's Hospital, William, dearly beloved daddy of Shirley (Mrs. Jolly) and Chas., dearest pa of Graham. —Passed peacefully away. Mummy and daddy reunited.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22725558

Tracking a new DOB down could prove interesting!

Event Birth
Event registration number 24145
Registration year 1883

Personal information
Family name HARRISON
Given names William
Sex Unknown
Father's name William
Mother's name Bliss (Upton)
Place of birth HOTH

This should be his birth registration^. It looks like his mother (Bliss) died in 1942, as it says "dearly beloved grandma of Chas. and Shirley (Mrs. Jolly)."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206812548

 

[the croucher]

Update from Rodgers:

Did I already mention? -
with William Joseph Ahern, player of 1897 -
all we could get was a baptized date of March 5, 1865 -
so in the end, we went for a
d-o-b of 3 days before;
so March 2.
We have everything else we need on him, as a player.

I'm just waiting - any day now - to get those 3 d-o-b's from Russell;
for Hayes
Dobson (Monk)
Richardson

In respect of that last one, that's
W.K.Richardson of course.
Any breakthroughs please, re the
"other Richardsons",
1901; and 1898.
Even if you guys say,
we think it could be this chap,
so-and-so :
we'll go with that for the time being.
We just need something!! -
anything!!

Russell, as you probably know, has just done a new Encyclopedia.
Too late for that, of course!!
But he's really hoping for a resolution too!!

What is the date of death for Ahern then ? Late May 1938 ?

 

[GreyCrow]

Tracking a new DOB down could prove interesting!

Event Birth
Event registration number 24145
Registration year 1883

Should be after April if the DOB death age is given as 65

 

[35Daicos]

What is the date of death for Ahern then ? Late May 1938 ?

I've lost track of this one, but 26 May appears to be the DOD: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243151718

I don't know whether this was ever posted, but I presume this was his story:
Knocked Down by Car
When he was crossing Point Nepean-road, Elsternwlck, on Saturday, William Ahern, 73 years, Cochrane-street, Elsternwlck, was knocked down by a motor
car. He was admitted to the Alfred Hospital with a broken ankle, lacerated leg and fractured ribs.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206944663 (23 May 1938)

 

[rbartlett]

I've lost track of this one, but 26 May appears to be the DOD: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243151718

Yes, AFL confirms 26 May 1938

 

[GreyCrow]

47 *Albert "Bert" Thomas James b:5/6/1923 Rich 1947

I want to offer up a possible solution. I say possible because 1 piece of information is just a little off.

The 1st piece is a marriage in Victoria

Event registration number 17833 Registration year 1947 Personal information Family name JAMES Given names Albert Thomas

Spouse's family name KILLEN Spouse's given names Ivy Martha Hyndman

Ryerson shows a death of an Ivy Martha James in Mt Gambier in 2005 aged 81 ie 1923/4 birth . Cremated in Carinya Gardens Mt Gambier

James, Ivy Martha
Cemetery:Carinya Cremation - Mount Gambier
Section:Garden C
Plot/Grave/Niche:95
Date of Death:2005-09-08
Age at Death:81 YEARS


There is also a corresponding Albert Thomas James in Carinya in 1991

James, Albert Thomas
Cemetery:Carinya Cremation - Mount Gambier
Date of Death:1991-12-04
Age at Death:69 YEARS

*going by Ryersons the dates are 8 September for Ivy so Albert must be 4 December. This corresponds to a DOB of 1922. And this is my concern. The given DOB is 1923. My only hope is the informant misread a date or misspoke. Or it could be not the right one.

Any ideas?

 

[the croucher]

Yes, AFL confirms 26 May 1938

The William Ahearn (DOD 26 May 1938) enlisted to serve in WW1 on 15 March 1916
with age shown as 48 yrs 11 mths, which means his next birthday (49th) was due in about April 1916,
therefore DOB c April 1867, not March 1865.
https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/69149

 

[the croucher]

Update from Rodgers:

Did I already mention? -
with William Joseph Ahern, player of 1897 -
all we could get was a baptized date of March 5, 1865 -
so in the end, we went for a
d-o-b of 3 days before;
so March 2.

<snip>
In respect of that last one, that's
W.K.Richardson of course.
Any breakthroughs please, re the
"other Richardsons",
1901; and 1898.
Even if you guys say,
we think it could be this chap,
so-and-so :
we'll go with that for the time being.
We just need something!! -
anything!!
<snip>

What ! Come on, history has to be better than that.
If you don't know a date or a name, don't claim that a specific one is correct just for the sake of having one filled in.

The official birth certificate is almost certainly available from Ireland,
if the AFL could be bothered spending the 40 dollars or so to get it.

 

[rbartlett]

GreyCrow you may need to updated Post 565 where applicable.

Update from Stephen Rodgers. DOBs discovered etc

Hayes Michael Alphonsus, called Alf
born 29 - 7 - 1900

Monk Miles Alexander, called Bobby (under mother's maiden name of Dobson)
born 22 - 10 - 1885

With the Richardson players (who originally was recorded just as Archie Richardson)
Richardson William Kendall
born 10-2-1880
(and died, as you previously advised 10-7-1903)
So that's 1900 man!

Richardson St K 1898 unknown at the moment
and
Richardson St K 1901 unknown at the moment