MLB 2019-2020 Offseason

ossie_21

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Dodgers going big, Boston cutting a lot of cash & their fans will probably feel like shit at dropping out of contention so quickly
 

FRUMPY

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Dodgers going big, Boston cutting a lot of cash & their fans will probably feel like shit at dropping out of contention so quickly
Dodgers going for it this year, thats for sure (i mean they already were) - Mookie will be looking for a monster season to get one massive contract when he hits free agency.
 

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FRUMPY

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Whose idea was it to call press conference for the Astros - just digging a bigger hole with every word muttered and every question dodged, getting blasted in the media
 

Back One Out

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It would be hard to tell lie after lie or evade answering questions and not made a dick of yourself
I'm not an avid fan of baseball, but I've watched a fair bit of it over the years. I really don't understand why stealing opponent's signs is considered cheating. I've read how the pitcher's advantage over the batter is the element of surprise. But to me, it seems absurd to get upset about batting teams zeroing in on the catcher's signals (or the batters themselves taking a peek.)

What other sport in the world polices the game in this manner? I suppose parallels could be drawn with the NFL banning teams from filming each other - the so-called "Spygate" controversy, but I always thought that was complete horseshit too (and I'm not even a Patriots fan).

It just seems ridiculous to outlaw teams from watching the catcher and telegraphing his signal to the batter. It just weird... Like if the AFL made a rule banning players from eavesdropping on the opposition runner. Surely if teammates (in any sport) are going to use signals to communicate with each other then their opponents have the right to read them as well.


1) Why don't catchers and pitchers invent their own signals and mix it up from inning to inning instead of being dumbasses and using the same signals which literally everyone has used for over 100 years?

2) If this is really such a big deal, then why don't they allow catchers and pitchers to use technology to communicate with either other? e.g. the pitcher could wear an earpiece and the catcher could use a small electronic device (an ankle bracelet) to tap morse code or whatever. Or instead of an earpiece, the pitcher could get a simple LED display on a small tag on his shoe, or on a band around his wrist.
 
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TheGreatBarryB

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The Dodgers have had suspicions against them. Mickey Callaway called them out last season and suspected they had some system.

A Brewers source came out and said he believed they used video in 2018.
Red Sox accused Machado of using signs from second base.

Now Red Sox being investigated..Apple watches etc.

It’s why the league is not willing to take title away from Astros. They know they’re not the only team.
 

twotooto

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I'm not an avid fan of baseball, but I've watched a fair bit of it over the years. I really don't understand why stealing opponent's signs is considered cheating. I've read how the pitcher's advantage over the batter is the element of surprise. But to me, it seems absurd to get upset about batting teams zeroing in on the catcher's signals (or the batters themselves taking a peek.)

What other sport in the world polices the game in this manner? I suppose parallels could be drawn with the NFL banning teams from filming each other - the so-called "Spygate" controversy, but I always thought that was complete horseshit too (and I'm not even a Patriots fan).

It just seems ridiculous to outlaw teams from watching the catcher and telegraphing his signal to the batter. It just weird... Like if the AFL made a rule banning players from eavesdropping on the opposition runner. Surely if teammates (in any sport) are going to use signals to communicate with each other then their opponents have the right to read them as well.


1) Why don't catchers and pitchers invent their own signals and mix it up from inning to inning instead of being dumbasses and using the same signals which literally everyone has used for over 100 years?

2) If this is really such a big deal, then why don't they allow catchers and pitchers to use technology to communicate with either other? e.g. the pitcher could wear an earpiece and the catcher could use a small electronic device (an ankle bracelet) to tap morse code or whatever. Or instead of an earpiece, the pitcher could get a simple LED display on a small tag on his shoe, or on a band around his wrist.
Teams have been trying to steal signs since Babe Ruth was a mere sprog swimming around in the bottom of his dad's ball bag.

It's a never ending game of cat and mouse where teams try and get an advantage over each other and they're constantly creating complex systems and changing them to disguise signs - even in the lower leagues and at amateur level. They all do it and they will continue to do it until the end of time as we know it.

The only reason it's a big deal this time is because Houston got caught out and it's created an awkward elephant in the room type issue for MLB. Nothing will change except the MLB governing body might make a ra ra show-me type gesture to save face and then it will be resume normal programming.
 

FRUMPY

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Teams have been trying to steal signs since Babe Ruth was a mere sprog swimming around in the bottom of his dad's ball bag.

It's a never ending game of cat and mouse where teams try and get an advantage over each other and they're constantly creating complex systems and changing them to disguise signs - even in the lower leagues and at amateur level. They all do it and they will continue to do it until the end of time as we know it.

The only reason it's a big deal this time is because Houston got caught out and it's created an awkward elephant in the room type issue for MLB. Nothing will change except the MLB governing body might make a ra ra show-me type gesture to save face and then it will be resume normal programming.
Its also a bit of the cricket mentality that its not in the sprit of the game. Sure, you have a runner at 2nd base then try and see their signs and relay them to the batter (thats fair play as they are in the game and pitches/catchers usually change up their signs). But using TV coverage and hitting a bin to tell the batter what pitch is coming is cheating and should be penalised for it. But like anything like this, the Astros wont be the only team doing it or something along these lines, but they won the world series and are being held accountable while other teams just get away with it.

Hopefully ends it for a couple of years before someone else comes up with another method.
 

RPCB

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Its also a bit of the cricket mentality that its not in the sprit of the game. Sure, you have a runner at 2nd base then try and see their signs and relay them to the batter (thats fair play as they are in the game and pitches/catchers usually change up their signs). But using TV coverage and hitting a bin to tell the batter what pitch is coming is cheating and should be penalised for it. But like anything like this, the Astros wont be the only team doing it or something along these lines, but they won the world series and are being held accountable while other teams just get away with it.

Hopefully ends it for a couple of years before someone else comes up with another method.
Exactly.

I can’t tell you the amount of people who think what the Astros did is the same thing as a runner standing on 2nd base and relaying to the batter with a signal what the catcher has called. It isn’t the same thing, the latter is a perfectly legal thing. What the Astros did is cheating by installing a CF camera for their cheating practices and when someone says “everyone cheats like that”, I don’t think so.

And so it begins.

“We have been working on for some time a memorandum about being hit by pitches, intentionally throwing at batters,” Manfred told ESPN’s Karl Ravech. “It’s really dangerous, really a dangerous undertaking, and completely independent of the Astros investigation we will be issuing at the beginning of this week a memorandum on hit by pitches which will increase the ramifications of that type of behavior.”

Manfred gets that players will be pissed at the Astros but I wonder if players would have been less pissed if the trophy was vacated. Manfred in barely punishing Houston might have created a monster and now has to go into bat for them.
 

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FRUMPY

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Exactly.

I can’t tell you the amount of people who think what the Astros did is the same thing as a runner standing on 2nd base and relaying to the batter with a signal what the catcher has called. It isn’t the same thing, the latter is a perfectly legal thing. What the Astros did is cheating by installing a CF camera for their cheating practices and when someone says “everyone cheats like that”, I don’t think so.

And so it begins.

“We have been working on for some time a memorandum about being hit by pitches, intentionally throwing at batters,” Manfred told ESPN’s Karl Ravech. “It’s really dangerous, really a dangerous undertaking, and completely independent of the Astros investigation we will be issuing at the beginning of this week a memorandum on hit by pitches which will increase the ramifications of that type of behavior.”

Manfred gets that players will be pissed at the Astros but I wonder if players would have been less pissed if the trophy was vacated. Manfred in barely punishing Houston might have created a monster and now has to go into bat for them.
And the Red Sox investigation will be finished by the end of the week, waiting for another lettuce leaf penalty
 

TheGreatBarryB

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Exactly.

I can’t tell you the amount of people who think what the Astros did is the same thing as a runner standing on 2nd base and relaying to the batter with a signal what the catcher has called. It isn’t the same thing, the latter is a perfectly legal thing. What the Astros did is cheating by installing a CF camera for their cheating practices and when someone says “everyone cheats like that”, I don’t think so.

And so it begins.

“We have been working on for some time a memorandum about being hit by pitches, intentionally throwing at batters,” Manfred told ESPN’s Karl Ravech. “It’s really dangerous, really a dangerous undertaking, and completely independent of the Astros investigation we will be issuing at the beginning of this week a memorandum on hit by pitches which will increase the ramifications of that type of behavior.”

Manfred gets that players will be pissed at the Astros but I wonder if players would have been less pissed if the trophy was vacated. Manfred in barely punishing Houston might have created a monster and now has to go into bat for them.
But some of accusations from last couple of years against other teams hasn’t just been signs from second base.
 

RPCB

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But some of accusations from last couple of years against other teams hasn’t just been signs from second base.
Red Sox, yes. Yankees? It is just speculation that it has happened with other teams. I think cheating electronically isn’t as rampant as we’re led to believe but maybe that is me just being naive.
 

TheGreatBarryB

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Red Sox, yes. Yankees? It is just speculation that it has happened with other teams. I think cheating electronically isn’t as rampant as we’re led to believe but maybe that is me just being naive.
Like I posted earlier Mickey Callaway and Mets called out Dodgers last season. Didn’t present evidence(but Dodgers never took action) but opined that they have a system in place. ESPN had a Brewers source that suspected same thing. The MLB was so concerned with several teams that they released a memo to all teams not to use technology for signs. Luhnow and the Astros could have acted then and possibly avoided all this.

Not excusing the Astros, unbelievably stupid what they did.
 

twotooto

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Apparently Houston have been doing it since 2017. That's three full seasons. If you factor in all of the people that are on an ML roster and then all of the coaching and support staff, and then all of players on AAA, AA etc rosters that intermittently come through and are part of an ML team throughout a season and then you take in to account drafts and how often players and staff change teams and THEN you multiply that by 3 - since that's how many season they've supposedly been doing it for(lol, would have been way longer) - you start to get an idea of how many people would actually know about it. Do you think when they go to other organisations, or talk to their wives/girlfriends/friends/families/mates at other teams, that they would just keep it all hush hush? lmao...uh no.

The only way MLB will be able to muzzle it in any way, shape or form is to a) ban all cameras not accredited and/or part of a licensed broadcaster(supposedly this already happens) b) remove all close ups of the catcher until after the pitcher starts his motion c) get rid of/or majorly rejig the camera review system.

Thing is, even with the technology, it's not an exact science. Teams, despite what they say publicly, know that tech is being used and are most likely using it themselves. And so they will continually change 'keys', signal formats, hold off until the last split second to put down a sign etc to fool the opposing team - you'll often see hitters(from all teams) look really silly at the plate because of this i.e. they're expecting one pitch, but get crossed up and receive an entirely different pitch(or they've simply guessed wrong, also common).

Stealing signs will never be an exact science - you'll win some and you'll lose some. Repeat, it will never, ever be an exact, 100% foolproof science, no matter what technology is available.
 
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Genesis67

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Rob Manfred has warned pitchers off throwing high and in to Astro's batters. Any perceived 'revenge pitching' is an auto-ejection.

This is gonna get worse before it gets better.
 

FRUMPY

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Rob Manfred has warned pitchers off throwing high and in to Astro's batters. Any perceived 'revenge pitching' is an auto-ejection.

This is gonna get worse before it gets better.
Dont punish any actual cheaters, just those who are pissed off at those who cheated and got away with it.

26 man squad this year - have one pitcher whose job is to throw at an astros batter if im playing them
 

Genesis67

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Dont punish any actual cheaters, just those who are pissed off at those who cheated and got away with it.

26 man squad this year - have one pitcher whose job is to throw at an astros batter if im playing them
Yep.

Honestly, if I'm pitching to Altuve early in the season, I'm aiming about 2" behind his helmet and taking the ejection. And I guarantee there'll be pitchers who think the same. Trevor Bauer comes to mind.
 

FRUMPY

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Yep.

Honestly, if I'm pitching to Altuve early in the season, I'm aiming about 2" behind his helmet and taking the ejection. And I guarantee there'll be pitchers who think the same. Trevor Bauer comes to mind.
I just laugh at the fact the MLB thought they could sweep it under a rug by telling clubs/players not to speak - its just dragged it out longer and making everyone look like idiots
 

Wickzki

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Yep.

Honestly, if I'm pitching to Altuve early in the season, I'm aiming about 2" behind his helmet and taking the ejection. And I guarantee there'll be pitchers who think the same. Trevor Bauer comes to mind.
There's enough pitching careers that have been destroyed by one bad outing against the Trashtros that I'm now following the last bit of free agency that's left before the season.
 

twotooto

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NY getting all righteous is a classic. "They robbed us of a title"...uh what about the systematic juicing programme they had going on - Clemens, A-Rod, Giambi, Pettitte etc etc. Where was the outrage there NY? Was that not cheating? What about back in 2015 when THEY were red flagged for questionable use of the replay room themselves? LA also not without their own skeletons in the closet. The hypocrisy from NY and LA(and numerous others) is glaring, to say the least. And, again, all of the teams are cheating in some way, shape or form. If the MLB was to run a fine tooth comb through all of the replays and then take subsequent action against offenders, there would not be a league left - already allegedly at least 8 other teams + Bawston also in the gun/doing it.

Sign stealing aka cheating has been going on since baseball began but Houston is different cuZ deY used DA TekNOWlogeE!!

I mean Beltran, the supposed architect of all of this, has played at at least 8 different teams himself. Do you think when he rocks up to a new organisation he just keeps his lips sealed? Uh, nah, he's doing the same thing at his new club and he's also tipping them off about the teams he used to be at. Same as all of the other myriad players and staff that move on to new teams. It is an open secret around the league, the globe and the known universe.

"This method of cheating is ok but this method isn't"...uh, ok, sure but isn't cheating cheating, whichever way you cut it? Is that not just a tad hypocritical?

And yet, as above, sign stealing is nowhere near an exact science. It's very hit and miss. And a trashcan? With all of the technology available the best they can come up with is Bam Bam banging on a trashcan a split second before the pitcher delivers?!? Lmfao what an absolute pisser!

See, because it isn't an exact science and it's not 100% foolproof most hitters would not even want to use it. It's unreliable and it's also a big distraction having to listen out for some cave man with a lump of wood and a trashcan make a morse code signal(lmfao) - that literally everyone else with a functioning set of ears in the stadium can also hear - a split second before the pitcher delivers, when you need to have all of your attention on the pitcher's release point to actually hit a ball coming at you at 100mph and dancing all over the place, shifting your focus isn't conducive to making contact.

It's really not this big game changing, title stealing scheme it's been made out to be, or anything new for that matter. It's commonly accepted that teams are going to steal signs. Whether it's with technology or not is a moot point. Even if teams AREN'T using tech in game(they are) they are using it after the game to try and decode signs and then apply that knowledge in game.

So by all means, throw the book at Houston, but if you must, then go through and conduct a review of all of the teams and then apply the same punishment to any offending teams. People that think it's just Houston are seriously delusional. Next up, Santa Claus is actually real and Epstein really did top himself...puhleaze.

Either make ALL forms of cheating illegal or just accept that it's always happened(and it will NEVER be 100% foolproof, therefore of questionable utility) and it always will and adjust accordingly.
 
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