MM's Coaching Record

[shawthing09]

As i replied to your thread about TOG you have to look at the players you are talking about. Many of them are senior players or players working on their tank. Didak needs to build up the tank for the middle hence high rotations. O'Bree and Burns are older. Swanny runs so hard some of that comes to his high rotations he is clearly spent when he gets to the bench most times. The players that were playing poorly and had high game time such as Marty Clarke, Heath Shaw and Tarks have some of the best tanks at the club.

I agree in part that MM didn't drag them trough september. What he did do is implement a game plan and mindset in the players that allowed what was a very average blue colar side to play a style of football that was gonig to be competitive in finals. That is what he does best play a finals type football all year so when that comes our team more often then not "over preforms in september" as they are a customed to that fever point and not relying on high possesion precise style.

 

[adzarani]

The fact that you say "we did that in 04/05" is proof of what i was saying before. Look at how long teams like Hawthorn, Carlton and St Kilda spent at the bottom to cut dead wood and rebuild. How many good players where traded for high draft picks etc.

Collingwood has a culture that would not accept this kind of failure and hence we are continually trying to pinch one while filling gaps on the list. I prefer our approach but the results are going to take time because we had so many gaps from poor drafting pre 2000.

It is intresting you mention Laidley because of the finanicial situation at north their list has the same problem they can't bottom out and rebuild as fans not paying up or showing up would send them bust.

Carlton and Hawthorn are different to St Kilda. The point is we are rebuilding for the 3rd time in 9 years yet people seem to think it's fine.

How long did Thomas take to get St KIlda into contention?

How long did Clarkson take to get Hawthorn into contention?

How long will Ratten take to get Carlton into contention?

Or more importantly....how long have these guys got (did they get) without a flag. Will Ratten get 9 seasons without a flag......not a hope in hell......runner-up twice, won't matter. Will Clarkson get 9 years without a flag?


We rebuilt with Fraser, Tarrant etc, Then with a whole bunch of guys who dissapeared, now with Pendles & Thomas, we are very accustomed to accepting the supposed short term pain for long term gain, it's just the long term gain that has yet to be seen. Effectively there was no massive long term gain from any of our high draft picks, Pendlebury looks our best chance atm, but still got miles to go before he is the nucleus of a "premiership" list, or the sort of player worth a year or two at the bottom.

How have we taken 10 seasons to recover from the drafting mistakes pre-1999, please explain?

You are right about North though, they can't afford to bottom out. They can't afford a $900k p/a coach either but they have remained just as competitive as us since Laidley has been there.......yet MM had a 4 year headstaret on Laidly, who inherited a club who had had it's guts ripped out and was rolling on the floor.

If MM was hungry for a flag we could give it a damn good shake this year.

 

[beez]

I know its all hypothetical, but just curious as to whether joe blogs like us on BF, and media personalities would rate MM a lot of higher had we won a flag in either of 02/03.

I personally rate him no matter what his statistics say

 

[shawthing09]

Carlton and Hawthorn are different to St Kilda. The point is we are rebuilding for the 3rd time in 9 years yet people seem to think it's fine.

How long did Thomas take to get St KIlda into contention?

How long did Clarkson take to get Hawthorn into contention?

How long will Ratten take to get Carlton into contention?

Or more importantly....how long have these guys got (did they get) without a flag. Will Ratten get 9 seasons without a flag......not a hope in hell......runner-up twice, won't matter. Will Clarkson get 9 years without a flag?


We rebuilt with Fraser, Tarrant etc, Then with a whole bunch of guys who dissapeared, now with Pendles & Thomas, we are very accustomed to accepting the supposed short term pain for long term gain, it's just the long term gain that has yet to be seen. Effectively there was no massive long term gain from any of our high draft picks, Pendlebury looks our best chance atm, but still got miles to go before he is the nucleus of a "premiership" list, or the sort of player worth a year or two at the bottom.

How have we taken 10 seasons to recover from the drafting mistakes pre-1999, please explain?

You are right about North though, they can't afford to bottom out. They can't afford a $900k p/a coach either but they have remained just as competitive as us since Laidley has been there.......yet MM had a 4 year headstaret on Laidly, who inherited a club who had had it's guts ripped out and was rolling on the floor.

If MM was hungry for a flag we could give it a damn good shake this year.

Because of the time that it takes to fill the gaps and clear dead wood. Their is a massive difference in going from 16 to 9th in a fairly even comp then their is to going from their to the top of the table. Even looking at carlton With all their high picks and freebies like nick stevens have massive gaps in thier list their whole kpp bar fev are hopeless and they will struggle to have a real tilt unless they can fix a number of divisions. Even Hawthorn's defense is a massive question mark on wheter they can win it atm and that is with sides who have pretty much bottomed out to rebuild. It is much harder when you try and spread it as we have been trying too.

 

[Nardz]

I know its all hypothetical, but just curious as to whether joe blogs like us on BF, and media personalities would rate MM a lot of higher had we won a flag in either of 02/03.

I personally rate him no matter what his statistics say

i rate him but he sure does have his shortfalls.

his gameplan sickens me. this chip around the boundary crap is so annoying. There's no plan b.

he plays favourites, never makes the hard call by dropping an established player that isnt pulling his weight.

and he's very stubborn. he'll persist and persist and persist with things that just aren't going to work.

One thing i will NEVER get over was Cloke CHF in the grand final. That was a coaching blunder of monumental proportion, and in a grand final!

He was also talking about debuting David King in that game. He turned out to be a hack.

Mick malthouse didn't do us any favours on that day.

 

[adzarani]

As i replied to your thread about TOG you have to look at the players you are talking about. Many of them are senior players or players working on their tank. Didak needs to build up the tank for the middle hence high rotations. O'Bree and Burns are older. Swanny runs so hard some of that comes to his high rotations he is clearly spent when he gets to the bench most times. The players that were playing poorly and had high game time such as Marty Clarke, Heath Shaw and Tarks have some of the best tanks at the club.

2008 TOG:

R.Shaw 79%
Pendlebury 78%
Thomas 76%
Swan 74%
O'Bree 69%
Burns 66%
______________

Toovey 94%

Ablett 85%
Bartell 88%
Kelly 86%
Ling 81%
Chapman 85%

S.Mitchell 92%
Crawford 78%

Stevens 88%
Scotland 88%
Judd 85%

R.Harvey 69%

So with all our facilities, hi tec training, high performance blah blah blah, our players in their 20s are getting veteran game time.

 

[stui magpie]

I thought I would post up some stats relating to Mick Malthouse's coaching record. Now, before some of you knuckleheads get on the bandwagon, this thread is not specifically aimed at being a MM bash, moreover a forum to discuss your thoughts as to whether he may/may not be the coach to take the CFC to their next Premiership.

In the current scheme of things, MM is the most experienced of all coaches with 580 senior games under his belt, this being 125 more than Leigh Mathews.

MM has 2 premierships (both West Coast and 3 runners up)
Leigh Mathews has 4 premierships (3 Brisbane, 1 Collingwood and 1 runner up)

Although MM is the most experienced, he is only ranked 7th most successful amongst his modern day counterparts in terms of his Win/Loss ratio.

MM first coached Footscray in 1984 to 1989 (6 years) for a total of 135 games, played in 1 finals series and had a Win/Loss ratio of 50.37%.

MM coached West Coast Eagles from 1990-1999 (10 years) for a total of 243 games, played in every finals series, won 2 flags and 1 runner up and had a Win/Loss ratio of 64.61%.

MM has coached Collingwood since 2000- (9th season) for a total of 202 games, played in 4 finals series to date, 2 runners up and a Win/Loss ratio of 50%.

Leith Mathews, the only other coach to bring a flag to Collingwood in the last 50 years coached the club from 1986-1995 (10 years) for a total of 224 games, played in 5 finals series and 1 premiership and a Win/Los ratio of 56.92%.

In terms of all time coaching records, MM is 3rd highest games coached, 4th highest games won, 1st highest games lost, 15th highest Win/Loss ratio of 56.21% and 15th highest in Premiership wins.

What this all means can be construed as just numbers and I am sure many of you will argue it doesn't matter squat what happened yesterday or yesteryear, but the reality is we are all judged by what we did yesterday and today. In my opinion, is MM the right man to take Collingwood to a flag?...I don't know. The stats only tell me he has a 24 year win/loss average of 56.21% and the only other modern day coaches who compare in terms of games and years are Kevin Sheedy (635 games coached, 4 flags, 3 RU and a Win/Loss ratio of 61.34%, 7th all time highest) and Leigh Matthews (455 games coached, 4 flags, 1 RU, 10th all time highest and a Win/Loss ratio of 59.34%)

The one damning fact for me is MM's Collingwood Win/Loss ratio of 50%. If that's deemed to be good enough, I would be concerned.

I think you need to look at MM's coaching record in context.

In 99, he inherited a team that had finished 14th. He had a clean out, drafted kids and traded for a few mature "fill in" type players. Accordingly after 2 years of last and second last, we jumped to 9th in 01 and two grandfinals in 02 and 03. The subsequent crash in 04 started the second re-build, this time focused soley on kids and building a group that could come through together. Since Hine started as recruiting manager in 04, we've turned over 34 players.

Again, only 2 years near the bottom (04 and 05) and we're back in finals in 06 and 07.

So, in his 9 years, he's overseen 2 rebuilding phases which accounts for the lowish winning average. I'd suggest that average is only going to climb over the next 5 years.

 

[tess]

So, in his 9 years, he's overseen 2 rebuilding phases which accounts for the lowish winning average. I'd suggest that average is only going to climb over the next 5 years.

Stui that 2nd rebuilding stage is of his own doing, lets not forget that.



adzarani
Don't worry about posters accussing you of making things up, they have a job to do and will run around accussing those of us willing to ask why not of being liars, or making things up.

Nicks, EBW, LSD as well as here the groans are getting louder and sooner or later Eddie is going to have to act on getting a coach who will win us a Premiership or 3.


MM is our Terry Wallace.

 

[stui magpie]

Tess, are you stalking me?

I agree, the second rebuild was his choice. My point was he started with a mess, went for combination of kids and rejects for a quick fix which got us to 2 GF's, and now is doing the rebuild properly.

That effects his coaching % with the pies more that if he'd just had a team that could win 60-70% of games during the season, finish 6th and have no chance of winning a flag.

A 50% winning rate isn't good enough but it needs to be put in context. I think he is a good coach but after 10 years, his time may be coming to a close. There just needs to be an obvious replacement who can come in and finish the job without bottoming out again.

 

[FIGJAM]

He has the keys to the car for this crescendo, and he can win finals if he has the cattle.

This year was or is only an outside chance IMO. We did lose Bucks and Clem and even if they didn't contribute much, they're still big losses.

2009 / 2010 is MM and Hine / Judkins' target. If they fail, then they must be moved on.

It is important to appreciate that down cycles happen. Our two biggest rivals of the early naughties have tasted the bottom four, and have stood by their capable coaches who have turned things around (although Port has done it erratically!).

We have built steadily via the draft and intelligent trading in getting Wood. There have been no signs of MM targeting Crab Morrison or Andy Williams types, and there are no signs that he can't get arguably inferior sides on paper over more fancied opposition.

The sands in the hour glass are fewer, but there is still a bit there.

 

[Big Bucks]

You have nothing, you make up stuff and try and pass it off as fact.
When you are challenged you just resort to platitude.
And when you are challenged harder to try to deflect it as my problem.

Look you MM haters are just not up to it, you have nothing[/quote]

Just like MM himself who is the longest serving coach in history at a club without the ultimate glory.
MM has nothing at the Collingwood Football Club and never will.

And you have even less.

LOL

 

[tess]

Tess, are you stalking me?

Whats your real name ..... shhh theirs someone watching.

I agree, the second rebuild was his choice. My point was he started with a mess, went for combination of kids and rejects for a quick fix which got us to 2 GF's, and now is doing the rebuild properly.

That effects his coaching % with the pies more that if he'd just had a team that could win 60-70% of games during the season, finish 6th and have no chance of winning a flag.

A 50% winning rate isn't good enough but it needs to be put in context. I think he is a good coach but after 10 years, his time may be coming to a close. There just needs to be an obvious replacement who can come in and finish the job without bottoming out again.

So if his time closes without a Flag he has failed and the people he answers to have failed us.

 

[stui magpie]

Why do women always want to know my real name? Bloody hell, what's your name?; take off those sunglasses so I can see your eyes; take off that mask; what are you doing with those handcuffs......................... Demands, demands.

If MM's time finishes without a premiership, I'll judge whether his time was a success or failure on the condition he hands over in.

 

[JAJH]

If you really are JA's father, MY God you are stepping onto dangerous ground.

Firstly, I don't need to justify who I am to you or anyone else, there are people on the board who know me personally. Secondly, what dangerous ground am I stepping into? I prefaced the thread by saying it WASN'T a MM bash, just a statistical exercise into his coaching career.

JAJH, well lets forget about the thread and now scratch our heads on who you are. No one on this board likes to give away who they are, as some are ex footballers, but i do believe you have made yourself known over recent times. Are you concerned that your comments or thread on the CFC coach is rather dangerous at best. If you were the father of a Collingwood footballer would he not be asked for a please explain if this was to be seen. I’m pretty confident the players are not allowed to openly express views on coaches of the club or tactics on the field.

PLEASE please this is not an attack on you, just wondering.

I guess we will all know if he does not run on this week against the bombers

As I said previously, some people on this board know me personally and no, I am not an ex-footballer, just the father of a current one. To be blunt, I couldn't give a toss if the powers that be at the CFC want to pull me up for simply posting up statistics, I have not at any stage made any derogatory comments about MM or the coaching staff, simply posted information freely available on the web. I would also be extremely disappointed if the club dropped JA just because of something that was posted on a internet forum. Again, as I said in my initial post, if some of you knuckleheads can't post decent, intelligent comments without resorting to slander, backstabbing and general crap, don't expect too many niceties to come your way.

 

[kevind]

Firstly, I don't need to justify who I am to you or anyone else, there are people on the board who know me personally. Secondly, what dangerous ground am I stepping into? I prefaced the thread by saying it WASN'T a MM bash, just a statistical exercise into his coaching career.



As I said previously, some people on this board know me personally and no, I am not an ex-footballer, just the father of a current one. To be blunt, I couldn't give a toss if the powers that be at the CFC want to pull me up for simply posting up statistics, I have not at any stage made any derogatory comments about MM or the coaching staff, simply posted information freely available on the web. I would also be extremely disappointed if the club dropped JA just because of something that was posted on a internet forum. Again, as I said in my initial post, if some of you knuckleheads can't post decent, intelligent comments without resorting to slander, backstabbing and general crap, don't expect too many niceties to come your way.

If you can't see that the club may be very concerned about the father of one it's players starting a thread to debate the record of the current coach then you sir are the knucklehead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Optimax]

If you can't see that the club may be very concerned about the father of one it's players starting a thread to debate the record of the current coach then you sir are the knucklehead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dont agree with the knuckle head part, as i do enjoy JAJHs insight.

But i do agree this si very un-even ground, and struggle to find a reason as to why you would post stats that are going to fire the pessimits into overdrive and annoy the hell out of the optimists, unless you really have a low regard for the man that is basically your sons boss.



On the argument, who excatly would do a better job with the collingwood sides from 100 until now than what malthouse has done, i would hazard a gues no one would have.

We keep thinking we have the greatest list and had have for years but its always been a mediocre list to good and is only starting to become special now and thats because we finally have our recruitment in order no offense to Judkins who was a very good recruiter but he was never a very good head of recruitment (dont his recruiting potential look at who recruited for essendon 93).

09/10 were always the years we were meant to be full blown preirship threats and i see nothing to change that opinion

 

[Bloben]

I can't see the harm in posting thoughts on Malthouse just because he is related to a current footballer. And it hasn't done much harm to either Rhyce or Heath... although they did delist Brayden

No seriously I can't see the big deal and I am a Malthouse fan.

 

[Bay Pie]

The more this side builds the better we become. We've added brown, Wellingham and Jack into the mix this season. Why do we have to have a flag this season. Am I the only one who sees that our window will be open in 3-4 years when thomas and co will be pushing 25 and in the prime of their lives.

In 2005 it was decided that the list at the time wasn't a chance at a flag, so the rebuild started. Right now we are only 3 years into that rebuild. Anybody remember Geelong? They made the semis and prelim 04 and 05, similar to the pies of 06 and 07. Success will come, this is the best crop of youngstars the pies have ever assembled. Well in the modern era..

Who has overseen this rebuild? MM. Let him rejoice in the success we will have over the coming few years.

BTW Anyone care to see the list of 1999 to now. I can tell you it may bring a smile to your face.

I agree with all that. If you have a look at some of Geelongs one-off results/here and there wins, and even some of Hawthorns, you will see a very similar pattern during those years. Inconsistent but can match it with the best of some days. This days become more consistent as they gain experience, size and greater fitness.

I'm happy with MM. I think he has changed his thinking somewhat from the 02 and 03 years.

 

[DJ Black @ White Blood]

Firstly, I don't need to justify who I am to you or anyone else, there are people on the board who know me personally. Secondly, what dangerous ground am I stepping into? I prefaced the thread by saying it WASN'T a MM bash, just a statistical exercise into his coaching career.



As I said previously, some people on this board know me personally and no, I am not an ex-footballer, just the father of a current one. To be blunt, I couldn't give a toss if the powers that be at the CFC want to pull me up for simply posting up statistics, I have not at any stage made any derogatory comments about MM or the coaching staff, simply posted information freely available on the web. I would also be extremely disappointed if the club dropped JA just because of something that was posted on a internet forum. Again, as I said in my initial post, if some of you knuckleheads can't post decent, intelligent comments without resorting to slander, backstabbing and general crap, don't expect too many niceties to come your way.

Not very classy there JAHA, Assuming you are around my age you should realise that you do have to be careful about not giving a toss as things come back and bite you sometimes. I wasn’t saying you were an ex footballer but some of the guys on here are, that’s all. Also this forum is for opinions and observations and not all are Slander and backstabbing but yes some is general crap. So take your chill pills and don’t take it all personally. Again like a few have said and myself it wouldn’t be something i would be posting if it was my son playing for the club and that is, i think, an intelligent comment coming from someone who is not a backstabbing slandering Knucklehead.

 

[JAJH]

If you can't see that the club may be very concerned about the father of one it's players starting a thread to debate the record of the current coach then you sir are the knucklehead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mate, you have been on this board for about 5 minutes and already your stirring the pot. I didn't regard you personally as a knucklehead, I was making a general comment to those who find it necessary to create argument when there wasn't one there to start with.

Not very classy there JAHA, Assuming you are around my age you should realise that you do have to be careful about not giving a toss as things come back and bite you sometimes. I wasn’t saying you were an ex footballer but some of the guys on here are, that’s all. Also this forum is for opinions and observations and not all are Slander and backstabbing but yes some is general crap. So take your chill pills and don’t take it all personally. Again like a few have said and myself it wouldn’t be something i would be posting if it was my son playing for the club and that is, i think, an intelligent comment coming from someone who is not a backstabbing slandering Knucklehead.

No, again I didn't make an all-encompassing generalisation about the slander/ backstabbing, just to those who tend to use it. I will repeat again, if people or the club find it offensive to post statistics, then we and the club have a lot to worry about.

 

[Pie eyed]

I thought I would post up some stats relating to Mick Malthouse's coaching record. Now, before some of you knuckleheads get on the bandwagon, this thread is not specifically aimed at being a MM bash, moreover a forum to discuss your thoughts as to whether he may/may not be the coach to take the CFC to their next Premiership.

In the current scheme of things, MM is the most experienced of all coaches with 580 senior games under his belt, this being 125 more than Leigh Mathews.

MM has 2 premierships (both West Coast and 3 runners up)
Leigh Mathews has 4 premierships (3 Brisbane, 1 Collingwood and 1 runner up)

Although MM is the most experienced, he is only ranked 7th most successful amongst his modern day counterparts in terms of his Win/Loss ratio.

MM first coached Footscray in 1984 to 1989 (6 years) for a total of 135 games, played in 1 finals series and had a Win/Loss ratio of 50.37%.

MM coached West Coast Eagles from 1990-1999 (10 years) for a total of 243 games, played in every finals series, won 2 flags and 1 runner up and had a Win/Loss ratio of 64.61%.

MM has coached Collingwood since 2000- (9th season) for a total of 202 games, played in 4 finals series to date, 2 runners up and a Win/Loss ratio of 50%.

Leith Mathews, the only other coach to bring a flag to Collingwood in the last 50 years coached the club from 1986-1995 (10 years) for a total of 224 games, played in 5 finals series and 1 premiership and a Win/Los ratio of 56.92%.

In terms of all time coaching records, MM is 3rd highest games coached, 4th highest games won, 1st highest games lost, 15th highest Win/Loss ratio of 56.21% and 15th highest in Premiership wins.

What this all means can be construed as just numbers and I am sure many of you will argue it doesn't matter squat what happened yesterday or yesteryear, but the reality is we are all judged by what we did yesterday and today. In my opinion, is MM the right man to take Collingwood to a flag?...I don't know. The stats only tell me he has a 24 year win/loss average of 56.21% and the only other modern day coaches who compare in terms of games and years are Kevin Sheedy (635 games coached, 4 flags, 3 RU and a Win/Loss ratio of 61.34%, 7th all time highest) and Leigh Matthews (455 games coached, 4 flags, 1 RU, 10th all time highest and a Win/Loss ratio of 59.34%)

The one damning fact for me is MM's Collingwood Win/Loss ratio of 50%. If that's deemed to be good enough, I would be concerned.

The only thing I would point out regarding Matthews and MM's records is that Matthews did not coach Collingwood to 3 of those Premierships and that three of his four flags were won by a side which had significant concessions and advantages over the rest of the competition for quite some time before and after the successes.
Now you may like to discount these statements but the reality is AFL is no longer just sport. It is and has been a business, national business, for quite some time and certain targets have been set and met in the last 20 years which have come at the expense of the "foundation" teams.

It is very hard to win a premiership at Collingwood.

Why?

The very nature of Collingwood Football Club, the things that make it great, actually work against it in many ways.

1.Collingwood, win, lose or draw has massive support. Long term support.
Generally, once a Collingwood supporter always a Collingwood supporter.

2.Our media profile ensures plenty of Corporate interest re: sponsorship.

3.Apart from a brief hiccup the Club has been financially stable through out it's existence.

4. Collingwood are the premier "Brand" in the AFL. Other supporters and Clubs will argue this point until hell freezes but the marketing figures, attendances and TV figures prove this to be true.

Collingwood are exceptionally successful without regular Flag success so the AFL largely focus on their "master plan" of "nationalisation" and Market domination. Successfully I might add.

Every club which has entered the AFL since the AFL became the AFL has tasted flag success, Freo and Sydney excepted***, in a very short space of time due directly to draft concessions, enforce player trading and either salary cap or list concessions.

Not so the Victorian clubs.
Hawthorn, for instance, spent decades in the wilderness rarely even winning a game until it became firstly a top four side and then eventually a "powerhouse".

The "new sides" have never had to do this sort of "apprenticeship", to earn their stripes so to speak, because the overriding focus of the AFL has always been market success. In the case of the interstate teams this inevitably meant "premierships".

You may think this is a cynical point of view but I am fore mostly a businessman and understand the AFL's methods and expectations in their quest to expand and "grow" the game. I don't overly condemn it but I do certainly take it into account when I look at the "rapid" rise and success of the "new" license holders.

When you compare Matthews to Malthouse you're comparing very different men, with very different sides which operated under a very different sets of "rules" and circumstances. Numbers very rarely give a full picture of facts or events.

Don't get me wrong, Matthews was the man who coached a Collingwood flag...He is always welcome at my place for a beer.


*** Freo will win a flag in the next decade guaranteed but the impetus is not as great as it was for West Coast. The market in WA is established and Freo already offer a "other team" market without overnight success.

***Sydney were the test case for all that followed and it toook a long time and a huge amount of money (from the established clubs I might add) the buy The Swans into the hearts of the locals and finally acquire a Flag.

 

[adzarani]

The only thing I would point out regarding Matthews and MM's records is that Matthews did not coach Collingwood to 3 of those Premierships and that three of his four flags were won by a side which had significant concessions and advantages over the rest of the competition for quite some time before and after the successes.
Now you may like to discount these statements but the reality is AFL is no longer just sport. It is and has been a business, national business, for quite some time and certain targets have been set and met in the last 20 years which have come at the expense of the "foundation" teams.

It is very hard to win a premiership at Collingwood.

Why?

The very nature of Collingwood Football Club, the things that make it great, actually work against it in many ways.

1.Collingwood, win, lose or draw has massive support. Long term support.
Generally, once a Collingwood supporter always a Collingwood supporter.

2.Our media profile ensures plenty of Corporate interest re: sponsorship.

3.Apart from a brief hiccup the Club has been financially stable through out it's existence.

4. Collingwood are the premier "Brand" in the AFL. Other supporters and Clubs will argue this point until hell freezes but the marketing figures, attendances and TV figures prove this to be true.

Collingwood are exceptionally successful without regular Flag success so the AFL largely focus on their "master plan" for "nationalisation".

Every club which has entered the AFL since the AFL became the AFL has tasted flag success, Freo and Sydney excepted***, in a very short space of time due directly to draft concessions, enforce player trading and either salary cap or list concessions.

Hawthorn, for instance, spent decades in the wilderness rarely even winning a game until it became firstly a top four side and then eventually a "powerhouse".

The "new sides" have never had to do this sort of "apprenticeship", to earn their stripes so to speak, because the overriding of the AFL has always been market success. In the case of the interstate teams this inevitably meant "premierships".

You may think this is a cynical point of view but I am foremostly a businessman and understand the AFL's methods and expectations in their quests to expand and "grow" the game. I don't overly condemn it but I do certainly take it into account when I look at the "rapid" rise and success of the "new" license holders.

When you compare Matthews to Malthouse you're comparing very different men, with very different sides which operated under a very different set of "rules" and circumstances. Numbers very rarely give a full picture of facts or events.

Don't get me wrong, Matthews was the man who coached a Collingwood flag...He is always welcome at my place for a beer.


*** Freo will win a flag in the next decade guaranteed but the impetus is not as great as it was for West Coast. The market in WA is established and Freo already offer a "other team" market without overnight success.

***Sydney were the test case for all that followed and it toook a long time and a huge amount of money (from the established clubs I might add) the buy The Swans into the hearts of the locals and finally acquire a Flag.

Keep in mind though that the majority of Malthouse's success was during 10 years at WC when he first took the Premiership Cup out of Victoria.

It has to go both ways, if MM is disadvantaged by coaching a Melbourne club (agreed) then his advantage gained as coach of the 1st real interstate premiership contender must be seen as such if he is to be compared to Matthews

Matthews still built a side at Brisbane as MM would say he also did at WC.

Take both interstate clubs away from their records (a bit silly) and Matthews is still a premiership coach.

 

[Soul_Pie]

To be honest, I don't really know what to make of Mick at times. On occasions he astounds me with how he understands opposition plans to a tee, while on other occasions he seems completely unable to read or understand what the opposition coach is doing. Even worse, though, it's his stubborness and seeming inability to mix things up which annoys me no end.

Watching the first Carlton match, I couldn't believe what I saw Mick doing. I looked on behind the goals at Fev single handedly tear us apart with half a paddock to run into. I watched as Carlton applied ultra flooding tactics against us while we chipped slowly down the wing - constantly giving them time to flood our forward line. It's matches like these when you think to yourself, what the heck is this guy doing?

Then there are matches like the Geelong match where everything falls into place and you start to understand what he's trying to achieve with his team, and admittedly it's a gameplan which could bring about huge success in finals if perfected. The problem, however, is that it doesn't seem to be all that effective over the course of 22 rounds, especially against lesser opponents.

It must be said, however, that Mick came in at a time when Collingwood were a bit of a rabble. We couldn't recruit worth a damn and we had a bloke in charge who loved the club but just wasn't coaching material. To further defend his coaching form this year, we've lost 3 absolute champion, copeland winning players from the team, which would hurt any side. As such, our erratic performances this year are probably partly due to our inexperience and the loss of our leaders who were also phenomenal players in their own right. With this in mind, I think Mick has done a remarkable job to even get us to be competitive, let alone be in contention for a final four spot.

So I guess I still have faith in MM, because I know that when he's on song he can achieve so much with this group. Once we have the cattle to execute his gameplan to a tee, I think we will be very hard to stop, but until that time I feel like he needs to work on ways of getting us over the line against opponents who we're heavily favoured to win against.

 

[Pie eyed]

Keep in mind though that the majority of Malthouse's success was also during 10 years at WC when he first took the Premiership out of Victoria.

It has to go both ways, if MM is disadvantaged by coaching a Melbourne club (agreed) then his advantage gained as coach of the 1st real interstate premiership contender must be seen as such if he is to be compared to Matthews

Matthews still built a side at Brisbane as MM would say he also did at WC.

Take both interstate clubs away from their records (a bit silly) and Matthews is still a premiership coach.

LOL... I'm not trying to take anything away from either.
Just pointing out that their individual circumstances were and still are very different very different.
Not too many sides have three Brownlow medalists in them at the same time for an extended period of time.
Collingwood almost always being pretty competitive also does not help with our drafting either. I mean after the picks Carlton have had in the last 5 years they should be a flag certainty in the next 5-6 years.
Collingwood alway have to do their best with what we can get. I'm not saying we don't have good players in our last three years worth of drafts but we certainly very rarely get a look at 1 to 7 in the first round without giving up someone of note.

The 1990 side was not what you would call a team full of superstars.
They were all very hard working, honest players and we had a lot of luck with injuries.

 

[The Octagon]

I thought I would post up some stats relating to Mick Malthouse's coaching record. Now, before some of you knuckleheads get on the bandwagon, this thread is not specifically aimed at being a MM bash, moreover a forum to discuss your thoughts as to whether he may/may not be the coach to take the CFC to their next Premiership.

In the current scheme of things, MM is the most experienced of all coaches with 580 senior games under his belt, this being 125 more than Leigh Mathews.

MM has 2 premierships (both West Coast and 3 runners up)
Leigh Mathews has 4 premierships (3 Brisbane, 1 Collingwood and 1 runner up)

Although MM is the most experienced, he is only ranked 7th most successful amongst his modern day counterparts in terms of his Win/Loss ratio.

MM first coached Footscray in 1984 to 1989 (6 years) for a total of 135 games, played in 1 finals series and had a Win/Loss ratio of 50.37%.

MM coached West Coast Eagles from 1990-1999 (10 years) for a total of 243 games, played in every finals series, won 2 flags and 1 runner up and had a Win/Loss ratio of 64.61%.

MM has coached Collingwood since 2000- (9th season) for a total of 202 games, played in 4 finals series to date, 2 runners up and a Win/Loss ratio of 50%.

Leith Mathews, the only other coach to bring a flag to Collingwood in the last 50 years coached the club from 1986-1995 (10 years) for a total of 224 games, played in 5 finals series and 1 premiership and a Win/Los ratio of 56.92%.

In terms of all time coaching records, MM is 3rd highest games coached, 4th highest games won, 1st highest games lost, 15th highest Win/Loss ratio of 56.21% and 15th highest in Premiership wins.

What this all means can be construed as just numbers and I am sure many of you will argue it doesn't matter squat what happened yesterday or yesteryear, but the reality is we are all judged by what we did yesterday and today. In my opinion, is MM the right man to take Collingwood to a flag?...I don't know. The stats only tell me he has a 24 year win/loss average of 56.21% and the only other modern day coaches who compare in terms of games and years are Kevin Sheedy (635 games coached, 4 flags, 3 RU and a Win/Loss ratio of 61.34%, 7th all time highest) and Leigh Matthews (455 games coached, 4 flags, 1 RU, 10th all time highest and a Win/Loss ratio of 59.34%)

The one damning fact for me is MM's Collingwood Win/Loss ratio of 50%. If that's deemed to be good enough, I would be concerned.

Without meaning to, and i mean doing so in an indirect manner, you are passing judgment on MM's tenure at Collingwood which for someone who has a son playing at the football club, surely represents dangerous ground. As you said you are free to post on this forum, despite the fact you have a son playing for the club, but doing so could jeopardise your relationship with the coach (due to the thread created on this occasion) and other members of the footy club. It just seems strange a person of your stature would take this route and have the opinion you "dont give a jack." Dont take this personally, but im just saying what i think, similar to what you have earlier.