MM's Coaching Record

[adzarani]

LOL... I'm not trying to take anything away from either.
Just pointing out that their individual circumstances were and still are very different very different.

I just wanted to point out the main difference.

1 has won flags with every club he has been associated with the other hasn't.

In the 1st 5 years I was all ears when it came to excuses for MM, but as time has gone on it just gets harder to swallow.

He's a great coach.........but geez he gets a lot of support for a guy who looses as many as he wins.

 

[The Octagon]

We havent got the greatest list at the moment, and while it is improving and developing well, it is very raw and young, hence the inconsistency. He is a reflection of the players i feel, as in he is at his best when the challange is great (Geelong is the prime example), and not so good when he is picked apart by opposing coaches (Ratten & Laidley in particular).

His strengths far outweigh his weaknesses at the moment, and as long as that is the case and we are challenging for finals on a continual basis, he is the man for the job.

 

[adzarani]

Without meaning to, and i mean doing so in an indirect manner, you are passing judgment on MM's tenure at Collingwood which for someone who has a son playing at the football club, surely represents dangerous ground. As you said you are free to post on this forum, despite the fact you have a son playing for the club, but doing so could jeopardise your relationship with the coach (due to the thread created on this occasion) and other members of the footy club. It just seems strange a person of your stature would take this route and have the opinion you "dont give a jack." Dont take this personally, but im just saying what i think, similar to what you have earlier.

How many people have read JAJHs post and gone "WTF is he doing, MM is going to delist JA for that outburst"

Why is it just accepted that MM may destroy JA's career at Collingwood over a post on BF, just becuase he might not like the supposed criticism? (The post asks questions but doesn't even arrive at a definite conclusion)

Why is there such a tone of "Oh, you can't say that about Mick, you are risking a personal backlash from MM against your son"?

Why do people accept that our senior coach might be so petty and unprofessional that he may react in such a childish manner to the mere discussion of his coaching record?

JAJHs post is discussion not criticism.

For criticism.........refer to one of my posts.

 

[donkeyballs]

Pull your knucklehead in dad!

 

[Lazyboy]

I would not have posted this personally if i had a son down at the nest, because its almost passive aggressive.

As for the topic i think Mick can fell the heat being turned up now, this year was the year where the side made a transition into the next generation.

What did we expect, well a fair bit, but mainly 100% dedication to the jumper, aggression, passion and honor on the field.

If we see that from the stands and our couches we have no problems, even if we lose. We accept it and try and improve.

However there has been quite a few blips on the radar that are very concerning, some signs in a few game have been very negative, the 1st loss to carlton was a disgrace, the 2nd loss even more so, and now the loss to north has ended our tilt at top 4 and a good chance of winning the flag.

Mick is a good coach, but until he can get the side winning important games, then he will never be a great coach.

 

[stui magpie]

I actually think we're pretty much going according to script.

Last year we over achieved in the finals IMO which set a higher expectation for this year than we should have had. Bucks and Licca leaving didn't have anywhere near the impact to our list as Clement leaving did.

In reality, before finals, we finished 6th last year and had a very inconsistent year. This year was always going to be a year of consolidating, not challenging. With Jimmy gone, Presti not playing all year and injuries to Ruz and now Pebbles and Reid, the fact that we're still in the hunt at all is a tribute to both MM and the depth we're building.

Take 2 of the best Key forwards and 2 of the best key Backs out of any other team and see how well they fare using kids as replacements.

The window opens a crack next year and should be right open from 2010 to 2012. If we aren't a serious challenger in 2010, MM's time is up.

 

[nihh]

I think something that gets missed when discussing his time at West Coast is that he was denied two home finals in 96 and 99. They lost both of these games at the G when they should have been playing at Subiaco. Who knows he might have snared another premiership in one of those years.

I don't think Malthouse should be judged on Friday night as we looked flat as a tack. However he is in an awkward position, in that he needs to get results as he has been at the club a long time, but the list isn't really old enough.

The worst thing that could happen is we take shortcuts and trade early picks and potential players away for big name players who might only give us 1 or 2 years of good footy.

Our main priority should be to draft and only trade for players who fill specific list holes and cost little.

Patience is required.

 

[Somebody]

It did look to me as if North were better organized and coached than us, but I couldn't say that for sure. I've seen games this year where Collingwood had the upper hand in the same way, always having more players aroudn the ball and killing the opposition with machine gun handball always ending to players in comfortable space to run or kick away, so it may just be that the team was off and tired. It's really hard to say for sure. the first Carlton game seemed more clearly a case of getting out-coached. If you are being flooded, the solution if nothing cleverer works is to flood them back in the same way, ie mirror their flooding almost exactly and then let the best team win on skill alone - and train the squad for that plan-B beforehand. It's not quantum physics. Mick never seems to do this and that game was the classic example where flooding had the best chance of stopping Fevola (and the 2nd Carlton game for that matter). Just adopting this simple fall-back strategy (mirroring) might save MM's career and this season but it might be too late anyway to train for this.

It would be almost unanimous that MM is an excellent development coach and an inspiring leader, the big Q mark is on his tactical match day coaching. the fact that this almost insider thread was started in public (and it will have repercussions) suggests that there are already concerns within the club and pressure will be building on MM.
I just think that yes there should always be constructive criticism of the coach and other roles in the club but it shouldn't be allowed to undermine morale and authority of the coach until he is actually gone, otherwise of course it becomes a self-fulfilling attitude since he's doomed to failure when he loses the support of the players. In other words the club, supporters and players should stay firmly behind MM at least during the season so as to have the best chance of success, and see how we go in the finals this year. If we don't do any better than last season it will be interesting if he gets another year, personally I don't know what would be the best thing to do in that situation - he might be the best man for the job next season also, but someone like Buckley or Mick McGuane or even Rowdy might be the better option, I just don't know. One thing for sure is we're going into unknown territory when we assign a coach who is unproven at AFL level.

 

[kevind]

Mate, you have been on this board for about 5 minutes and already your stirring the pot. I didn't regard you personally as a knucklehead, I was making a general comment to those who find it necessary to create argument when there wasn't one there to start with.


No, again I didn't make an all-encompassing generalisation about the slander/ backstabbing, just to those who tend to use it. I will repeat again, if people or the club find it offensive to post statistics, then we and the club have a lot to worry about.

Mate, read your very last sentence again and tell me who is stirring the pot. Whether I have been on here for 5 minutes or 20 years is irreleveant. You are treating us all like mugs. I mean would you happily show your post to MM or Eddie McGuire, or do you think they might be pissed off?

Given MMs minor criticism of your son after the NM game, your timing of this post is curious to say the least. You constantly defend your son, which I can appreciate. I have two daughters myself and as a parent we don't take critisism of our chidren too kindly. But to compose that very last sentence in your post and claim your piece is a non judgemental post for discussion is treating the rest of us like morons.

 

[JAJH]

Mate, read your very last sentence again and tell me who is stirring the pot. Whether I have been on here for 5 minutes or 20 years is irreleveant. You are treating us all like mugs. I mean would you happily show your post to MM or Eddie McGuire, or do you think they might be pissed off?

Given MMs minor criticism of your son after the NM game, your timing of this post is curious to say the least. You constantly defend your son, which I can appreciate. I have two daughters myself and as a parent we don't take critisism of our chidren too kindly. But to compose that very last sentence in your post and claim your piece is a non judgemental post for discussion is treating the rest of us like morons.

I'm not treating anybody like a mug, I didn't have a go at anyone and again I didn't have a go MM either, simply posted statistics. I wouldn't have the slightest problem whatsoever in showing Eddie and MM anything I have posted. I know for a fact Eddie frequents this board and the club has people who also frequent this forum, if they have found the information I posted unsavoury, I am sure I would have heard by now. As I said in my previous post, and to be blunt once again, I am getting a little tired of having to repeat myself, if people get touchy and defensive about statistics being posted, get over it FFS. And what line in my post are you referring to that was so horrid?? Also, if you bother to do your homework, my timing in light of MMs post match comments had nothing to do with my thread, I have made a number of posts and comments previously about MMs game plan, tactics and even selections, but some people get so precious about things they think should and shouldn't be said. If you and any others have a problem with anything I post, I'll live with it!

 

[Big Bucks]

MM`s Coaching Record goes like this, Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose Win Lose .
He does ok 50% of the time=mediocrity.
At the end of the day NO CIGAR.

 

[Pie eyed]

This thread, like the vast majority lately, is going downhill rapidly because it is getting further off topic.
I believe this thread is a bout MM's coaching.

JAJH posed a valid question and has every right to regardless of having a son in the side. As a matter of fact I am happy to read the comments and opinions of someone "really" associated with the club or a player rather than the some of the imaginings we get quite often.

I doubt MM would give 2 seconds thought to what JAJH opines in these boards even if he even learned of them let alone mete out some form of reprisal against Jack.
It is getting to be a waste of time to even reading most of the threads on the Collingwood board because it has been hi-jacked by the braindead uber-negative arseclown brigade.
Nearly every thread after a loss is simply an excuse for the resident "arseclowns" to have whinge and get back on to bagging their favorite victims.


King "arseclown" having just appeared as I type. Pointless now spend much more time reading as every topic will now be turned into a player, coach and club bashing exercise by the "Carlton supporter in Pies clothing" who calls himself Big Bucks....

 

[WakeUpPies]

Well hang on champ..... i asked you for some input into what MMs KPI's might have been and what did you have.......NOTHING

When I showed you our midfielders off the ground for up to 20% more than Norths key players what did you have..............NOTHING

What do you add to this forum in terms of opinion and content.......NOTHING

Why don't you go and find something more than "he's done a good job with an average list" to prove that MMs perfomance at Collingwood has been topline.

You show me how MM is in the top 3 coaches this decade.......YOU CAN"T
WITHOUT MAKING EXCUSES FOR HIM

Don't try to argue with babies adzarani, they are egocentric. Just agree with him and he will go away.

 

[JAJH]

This thread, like the vast majority lately, is going downhill rapidly because it is getting further off topic.
I believe this thread is a bout MM's coaching.

JAJH posed a valid question and has every right to regardless of having a son in the side. As a matter of fact I am happy to read the comments and opinions of someone "really" associated with the club or a player rather than the some of the imaginings we get quite often.

I doubt MM would give 2 seconds thought to what JAJH opines in these boards even if he even learned of them let alone mete out some form of reprisal against Jack.
It is getting to be a waste of time to even reading most of the threads on the Collingwood board because it has been hi-jacked by the braindead uber-negative arseclown brigade.
Nearly every thread after a loss is simply an excuse for the resident "arseclowns" to have whinge and get back on to bagging their favorite victims.


King "arseclown" having just appeared as I type. Pointless now spend much more time reading as every topic will now be turned into a player, coach and club bashing exercise by the "Carlton supporter in Pies clothing" who calls himself Big Bucks....

Finally...sanity and logic!

 

[adzarani]

There are 2 main types of supporter discussing this issue:

Those who feel they are somehow defending the club by making excuses for MM's ordinary coaching record at Collingwood. (as if MM was a volunteer or something)

And those who don't see the benifit in making excuses for MM's ordinary coaching record given his salary and standing in the game.

It's an ordinary record....... there is NO excuse, no matter how long winded and drawn out.

He is a mid to lower level AFL coach who in the past had great success with a state team........nothing more

But keep defending him, it's great for the club to let as much pressure off MM as we can.

After all the bookies only have us equal 3rd favourite for the flag, but so many are happy to throw away the next 3 years with dribble like "he hasn't got the players" blah blah blah. If he bothered to put the players on the field for longer we would get a better indication of whether we do or not.

We are right in the mix this season. Equal 3rd favourite in flag betting. But according to most of the boy scouts on here we are light years away.

Especially this dribble about 09/10 are our years, do ppl really think other clubs are standing still.......

This attitude of "It's alright MM win a flag once you feel your ready" has to stop. He will just sit on his fat contract for as long as can, knowing full well that there is ZERO pressure to win a flag.

Throw everything at 2008 or piss off FFS

 

[RRRooocccaaa]

Yeah, but I have to ask... where have we got to?

On one hand, the facts and figures are there. Yep, can't deny 'em.

On the other, given that most of us ARE on the outside and have to hypothesise, we have pure conjecture. Raw emotion. Illogical bias and the rantings of frustrated fans.

And all we really got was a bunch of bile and bad blood between the posters and a sense of disunity and - ultimately - a frustrating read. Because there was no real point to prove!

So what was the purpose of putting these figures out there? Yes, they existed on public records and on the 'net already, but you've collected and presented them in a way meant to convey a very specific point of view.

Did you simply want a consensus? Why not say so?

 

[JAJH]

Yeah, but I have to ask... where have we got to?

On one hand, the facts and figures are there. Yep, can't deny 'em.

On the other, given that most of us ARE on the outside and have to hypothesise, we have pure conjecture. Raw emotion. Illogical bias and the rantings of frustrated fans.

And all we really got was a bunch of bile and bad blood between the posters and a sense of disunity and - ultimately - a frustrating read. Because there was no real point to prove!

So what was the purpose of putting these figures out there? Yes, they existed on public records and on the 'net already, but you've collected and presented them in a way meant to convey a very specific point of view.

Did you simply want a consensus? Why not say so?

The point of the whole exercise was to offer an accurate portrayal in statistical form as to where MM has been and where he is now. I didn't offer an opinion nor did I ask for a consensus. Because of the feeling, passion, hatred, loathing or love of the club or the man, it has turned into a bitchfest and a "please explain" from me.

 

[RRRooocccaaa]

The point of the whole exercise was to offer an accurate portrayal in statistical form as to where MM has been and where he is now. I didn't offer an opinion nor did I ask for a consensus. Because of the feeling, passion, hatred, loathing or love of the club or the man, it has turned into a bitchfest and a "please explain" from me.

Fair enough. But was it a worthwhile exercise?

 

[JAJH]

Fair enough. But was it a worthwhile exercise?

I think it a worthwhile exercise when a question or post generates debate. What irks me no end is when the post is lowered to a level where the ferals get their say and it becomes nothing more than a slanging match and personal attack.

 

[adzarani]

It is getting to be a waste of time to even reading most of the threads on the Collingwood board because it has been hi-jacked by the braindead uber-negative arseclown brigade.
Nearly every thread after a loss is simply an excuse for the resident "arseclowns" to have whinge and get back on to bagging their favorite victims.

King "arseclown" having just appeared as I type. Pointless now spend much more time reading as every topic will now be turned into a player, coach and club bashing exercise by the "Carlton supporter in Pies clothing" who calls himself Big Bucks....

MM is not Collingwood

Don't make the mistake of thinking you are supporting the Collingwood Football Club by making excuses for MM.

MM is an entity unto himself. You are supporting MM the individual, nothing more.

If anything, these excuses help to reduce the pressure on MM, lower the Magpie Army's expectations, and perpetuate Malthouse's reign of mediocrity over the club.........great work!

MM is not Collingwood.........remember that before you start calling people Carlton and other filthy names.

 

[Snag Breac]

It's interesting that posters express such strongly opposed views on this crucial issue. But it's understandable. There are so many factors that contribute to or detract from a club's success that it's hard to judge the effect of one man. And such an enigmatic man.

Sometimes I think that MM must be an inspirational leader with a touch of genius, other times I seriously wonder what he's about, particularly on game day. It may be, as someone has suggested above, that game day tactics is his weak point. Or it may be that he has his mind on player development more than anything else; whereas we tend to want to win every week, naturally.

One thing, JAJH, I was surprised to read what MM said about John after the game. It made no sense - to pay only a backhanded compliment to the young player who, in only his 3rd (?) game, was showing the other forwards how it's done. But on reflection, I suspect that MM didn't mean it to come out that way. I think that he meant to imply that the other forwards shouldn't have been looking to John to save the day. The problem is the way MM uses language. He seems to complicate things so much that I suspect he often doesn't get his meaning across accurately. And then he's not the man to know how to fix things afterwards.

 

[RRRooocccaaa]

If anything, these excuses help to reduce the pressure on MM, lower the Magpie Army's expectations, and perpetuate Malthouse's reign of mediocrity over the club.........great work!

Steady on - I never said I had lowered expectations and I doubt many (or any) of the other posters don't expect to win a premiership.

I still believe MM can lead our team to one, maybe two flags in as many years. I expect to win at least one.

It's just that I can appreciate we have to build the right foundations for that, and as many people have pointed out that hasn't been there until now (trades, fitness, etc...).

There's a lot of other clubs that have bought 'stars' in order to buy a premiership when they felt the time was right (i.e. Sydney got Spider Everett - LOL, bad mistake!). It may be the ethos of those clubs to try and simply buy their way into glory, but it doesn't sit right with me. To me Carlton is a team of showponies who prefer to wear the 'Number 1 Draft' and 'Number 1 Trade' badges like it matters. There's no sense of loyalty or teamsmanship from supporters or even star forwards.

To me, there's a parity with Collingwood and Geelong. Mostly, the team is built from a core playing group who aren't necessarily 'Star' players - most of Geelong's players have become stars because their team allows them to. The reason we beat them (IMHO) is because we're probably the team closest to them in terms of culture, belief, fitness and skill. The reason we haven't replicated their success is that they've effectively had 2 more years of working together to get that extra trust and discipline into the team. They really believe they can win each week - even if they're down by a bundle at half time. It's where we're lacking at the moment.

It's why I want MM to keep on - he knows the potential of our players better than any of us, and I bet he's just as gutted by the outs of Rocca, Rusling and even Brad Dick. He had a Plan A, but now we're back to Plan C and still travelling OK. Our younger brigade are still building up strength and stamina and a better sense of cohesion. FFS, JA and Wellingham have only just stepped up and have slotted in like the gaps were specifically made for them.

I understand your frustration Adzarani and god knows the pain of '02 and '03 (and having lived on Edinburgh Gardens and endured the morning-after celebrations of the Lions to rub salt into the wounds) is still there. But head down and enjoy each game for the rest of the season. We may all still be in for a surprise, you never know.

 

[adzarani]

It's just that I can appreciate we have to build the right foundations for that, and as many people have pointed out that hasn't been there until now (trades, fitness, etc...).

There's a lot of other clubs that have bought 'stars' in order to buy a premiership when they felt the time was right (i.e. Sydney got Spider Everett - LOL, bad mistake!). It may be the ethos of those clubs to try and simply buy their way into glory, but it doesn't sit right with me. To me Carlton is a team of showponies who prefer to wear the 'Number 1 Draft' and 'Number 1 Trade' badges like it matters. There's no sense of loyalty or teamsmanship from supporters or even star forwards.

To me, there's a parity with Collingwood and Geelong. Mostly, the team is built from a core playing group who aren't necessarily 'Star' players - most of Geelong's players have become stars because their team allows them to. The reason we beat them (IMHO) is because we're probably the team closest to them in terms of culture, belief, fitness and skill. The reason we haven't replicated their success is that they've effectively had 2 more years of working together to get that extra trust and discipline into the team. They really believe they can win each week - even if they're down by a bundle at half time. It's where we're lacking at the moment.

It's why I want MM to keep on - he knows the potential of our players better than any of us, and I bet he's just as gutted by the outs of Rocca, Rusling and even Brad Dick. He had a Plan A, but now we're back to Plan C and still travelling OK. Our younger brigade are still building up strength and stamina and a better sense of cohesion. FFS, JA and Wellingham have only just stepped up and have slotted in like the gaps were specifically made for them.

We have to build the right foundations do we?........so after 9 years and a 50% win/loss you are happy with MM still building foundations......accept that some people see that in itself as an outrage, especially given that we have never had a topline side in the 9 years he's been coach.

And you're right......what have players from other clubs ever done for us, let's stick with the kids, heaven forbid we might recruit another Clement or Buckley, Licuria, O'Bree, Holland, Wakelin or even a RRooccaa type player.

Let's bring in more kids so MM can give them 30 seconds to prove themselves in the AFL before dropping them for 3 months only to bring them back and throw them right in the deep end, then even if they swim drop them again for another 6 weeks before delisting them..........he toys with our kids and ruins more than he develops.

As for Geeelong I don't see the similarities, they were on the verge of a self imposed crisis at the begining of last year, and Thompson was under extreme pressure at times in 2006, probably the most pressure put on a coach without a sacking we have seen. All of that came to a head with Dwayne Russell making some big noise in the media, and low and behold the result of 18 months of out and out pressure was more commited side and a flag.

We are coasting, MM is under no pressure, and there is always an excuse why he doesn't have to win (see the 50 above). I will never accept that he has done his job until we have a flag. And I will never stop criticising his performance as long as there is no pressure on him to get results.

The NM and Carlton games this year are not an example of a coach who is trying to win, who is under pressure to get results. It's the performance of a coach who is coasting, unchallenged with no pressure to win whatsoever.

Why didn't he man up Wells or block the hole in front of Fev........because he is MM and he doesn't have to, if we loose it's the CFC's problem not his, it doesn't affect his standing in the game, no matter how stupid the move seems to be........he is free to use the CFC has his personal hobby horse while we pay him millions and millions year after year.

 

[RRRooocccaaa]

he is free to use the CFC has his personal hobby horse while we pay him millions and millions year after year

Ahhh. So it's really about your perception of a cashed-up cigar smoker who rolls into work everyday in his Porsche 911?

If you're that passionate - and I can see by the vitriol in your response that's probably true - then you should make yourself known to him at an open day or training session and ask a polite question or two. You're a member, yeah? You've certainly got the right to ask.

 

[adzarani]

Ahhh. So it's really about your perception of a cashed-up cigar smoker who rolls into work everyday in his Porsche 911?

No......it's about his record and performance, relative to his salary and standing in the game.

And in case you haven't noticed, asking questions is about the most useless action that can be taken in relation to MM. Haven't you ever seen a press conference?

Anyway, just keep on defending MM the INDIVIDUAL at the expense of the CLUB.

No one has brought anything but excuses for MM and future promises to the table.

MM is average at coaching but brilliant at influencing public opinion. Look at his record compared to many of the posts on here.

Do people say "Gee....that is an average record, maybe we need to look more closely at what he is doing"

No

People come on, like your good self with posts like "Ah, facts and figures, they're not really what MM & Collingwood is about" or the old "MM hasn't got much to work with" routine. It's just a blind, long winded waffle essentially about how winning games isn't important (excuse), and how it's because of injuries, kids and poor lists (excuse) and that we wil win a flag in the next two years (promise).

Promises & Excuses thats all people have got to defend MM with!

His record is ordinary, he is an ordinary coach who knows how to survive in this sport........simple as that.

Defend him all you want, but remember you are supporting an individual ahead of the club.