Modern Batsmen vs. West Indies: Who Would Stand Up?
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roscreasl98
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Sorry.
There was a time when Finn wasn't hopeless???
roscreasl98
Norm Smith Medallist
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- #104
No. I meant other than that....The two times he took 6-for against Australia, curiously enough
As others have said the 2 bouncers per over would change things somewhat.
I think Warner would go ok against them, his bigger problem is spin generally. Maybe a few failures but he would still make runs and average 40 or so.
Smith I think would be better but below his career average maybe 45 or so against them.
All the others would have significant issues. Renshaw would have his deficiencies exposed quick smart, Khawaja may actually go ok, while Handscomb and Maxwell would really battle.
Btw People reminisce about the windies but they used gamesmanship and intimidation just like the apparently evil 95-08 Australian teams did.
Slow over rates, sledging, running out Dean Jones off a no ball, bowling 7 overs in an hour to prevent an English victory in 1990 etc.
I'd love to see them powerful again but chances are they will produce their own Kohli who will antagonize and anger people.
I think Warner would go ok against them, his bigger problem is spin generally. Maybe a few failures but he would still make runs and average 40 or so.
Smith I think would be better but below his career average maybe 45 or so against them.
All the others would have significant issues. Renshaw would have his deficiencies exposed quick smart, Khawaja may actually go ok, while Handscomb and Maxwell would really battle.
Btw People reminisce about the windies but they used gamesmanship and intimidation just like the apparently evil 95-08 Australian teams did.
Slow over rates, sledging, running out Dean Jones off a no ball, bowling 7 overs in an hour to prevent an English victory in 1990 etc.
I'd love to see them powerful again but chances are they will produce their own Kohli who will antagonize and anger people.
its really hard to compare eras I think that if the protective gear was never invented most modern batsmen would adapt and play in a similar way to those of yesteryear... obviously some with more success than others, and its probably fair to say those who play on bouncy wickets more often would be more successful with a higher disparity than the present day.
I think the advent of helmets, arm protectors, chest guards, arm guards, inner thigh guards has assisted tailenders more against quick bowling... as long as they're not completely soft wearing all the gear most can get in behind the ball, back in the day you can understand why they used to expose the stumps and look like bunnies.
I think the advent of helmets, arm protectors, chest guards, arm guards, inner thigh guards has assisted tailenders more against quick bowling... as long as they're not completely soft wearing all the gear most can get in behind the ball, back in the day you can understand why they used to expose the stumps and look like bunnies.
Contrary to my regular criticism of him, I think Warner would play the occasional brutal innings against that sort of bowling. But they would be mitigated by a lot of low scores.
The gamesmanship thing was addressed in another thread I think, but as Fire In babylon explains, their hard nosed approach was expressly born out of what they encountered out here when they were flogged 5-1.
They were shocked at the sledging and all-out-warfare from the Aussies and realised that their best option was to just do it back to them.
Considering AB I think only averaged 37 against them many would struggle.
A lot of less heralded batsmen did really well against them. Alan Lamb was far more successful against the windies than anyone else and Kepler Wessels has a great series against them at their peak in 84-85.
As for the gamesmanship, neutral umpires and improved policing of over rates is better for everyone.
People forget about how boring as batshit a lot of test cricket used to be back then. Windies were the only team to average more than 3 an over in the 80s in tests.
Can tell from watching the batsman that irrespective of the actual pace coming down at them, they just can’t compute that the languid, lazy run up, is translating to the literal pace of what they’re facing.
A bit like Wasim Akram in that respect. Both always seemed to have more because they got to, and importantly through, the crease so easily. Yet still freakishly fast, and in control.
Doug Walters came and did a q and a for our club a couple of weeks ago and naturally talk turned to speed, and aside from Thommo he said that Holding was the one who seemed fastest for that exact reason. ‘You always felt as though he had another gear if he wanted to use it.’
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Most imo.
This is what I'm curious about. If we accept with modern professionalism, more advanced training techniques, sports science, athletes full time and people being bigger and stronger and this impacts sports. i.e. AFL players are quicker and stronger, tennis players now serve and hit harder etc
Does the same apply to cricket? Ergo bowlers today are quicker than in previous eras. While only a select few WIs types could push 145-150km/h today most pace bowlers can hit that mark and a select few can push mid 150s 160.
Anyone seen/played across eras? Is there a discernible difference?
This is what I'm curious about. If we accept with modern professionalism, more advanced training techniques, sports science, athletes full time and people being bigger and stronger and this impacts sports. i.e. AFL players are quicker and stronger, tennis players now serve and hit harder etc
Does the same apply to cricket? Ergo bowlers today are quicker than in previous eras. While only a select few WIs types could push 145-150km/h today most pace bowlers can hit that mark and a select few can push mid 150s 160.
Anyone seen/played across eras? Is there a discernible difference?
Mate google the footage of Michael Holding bowling to Brian close.
Radar or not, anyone with eyes can see how frighteningly quick it is. And by all accounts, he wasn’t necessarily the fastest, just the one who was scariest because the pace he bowled was so effortless. Guys like Sylvester Clarke and Wayne Daniel were super quick and between them could hardly get a game. Andy Roberts was bloody quick. Patrick Patterson, Ian Bishop - David Boon was one of the best players of pure pace I’ve seen, and he copped some brutal hits from the West Indians when I was real young.
Now granted, bowling machine technology has made real pace easily accessible for any batsman who wants to test themselves. And most teams have some 140-plus bowlers. So yeah, with the light but big bats, helmets, padding etc, most batsmen can handle it. However it was only a decade ago that Lee and Shoaib were bowling 150-plus and while they got collared from time to time, their raw pace accounted for a lot of wickets.
Google Dale Steyn’s spells to NZ about 7 years back. 150-plus, they were hopeless. And that’s with all the modern trim. Likewise Johnson’s classic spells.
Basically I think if you plonked a current day batsman in against the West Indies back then, the good ones would handle it ok, the bad ones would struggle, like most batsmen did back then.
But if you took them and said ‘no helmets, no chest guard or thigh pad, lower quality wickets, no 2 bouncer rule etc’ they’d be at sea.
Gough
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Apparently he was a hell tough sob. He fielded short leg with no fear and didn't mind getting hit. His theory was something like 'the ball only touched you for a second so how can it hurt'. Ye ok... I'm gonna have the same attitude in mma practice while getting my assed kicked and see how I go.
Marcus DuQuesne
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Played 736 First Class games..and retired in Early 50's...They brought Colin Cowdrey out to Australia in his early 40's to face Lillee and Thompson. He made 22 and 41 and held up up his end. 1974/5
Marcus DuQuesne
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I played some Sub Dist cricket at the time but did not face him as in different group. I think he enjoyed himself but did not bowl full pace from what I remember. West Indians were well known as good time party boys. Liked the girls also.
As I recall the Windies were one of the first teams to get serious about fitness on a team level at least in comparison to what our blokes were doing at the time. Blokes like Wayne Daniel and Sylvester Clarke probably weren't on board with this as much as the others were. Simon Hughes talks a lot about the Black Diamond in his book "A Lot of Hard Yakka". Great book about the life of a county trundler in the 80's. Daniel came across as a good time, not a long time sort of bloke. If you look at his test record it's pretty good for only 10 tests. Sylvester Clarke has a similar record so you'd have to think their attitude wasn't at the level required which is why they didn't play more.
It would be a mess. 5 nil losses all over the place.
Sides bowled out for 80's and 90's.
I fear the current Australian batting line up would fair worse than their 1983 to 85 types.
The current West Indies era is like 20 levels down on back then. It is literally scary how different it is.
Beating them in a single game back then in late 70s and most of 80's was like climbing Mount Everest in terms of cricket results. It is why a regular one day game at MCG against them could draw 80,000
No hope of seeing that now.
I miss the challenge of beating or getting as good as a team like that.
Sides bowled out for 80's and 90's.
I fear the current Australian batting line up would fair worse than their 1983 to 85 types.
The current West Indies era is like 20 levels down on back then. It is literally scary how different it is.
Beating them in a single game back then in late 70s and most of 80's was like climbing Mount Everest in terms of cricket results. It is why a regular one day game at MCG against them could draw 80,000
No hope of seeing that now.
I miss the challenge of beating or getting as good as a team like that.
Technically speaking SA during their streak of nearly a decade losing only two series wasn’t far off it.
If, and it’s a big if because Australia historically doesn’t often stay down for long, the Aussies slip a bit further and stuck for a while, those two efforts might be viewed with a little more merit than they are now.
Everyone I've spoken to about Wayne Daniel's stint here for WA describes him as, to quote one former state squad member; "******* terrifying."
As for the question in the OP; I think there'd be a mixed result;
- Steyn, Johnson during his hot streak, Shane Bond pre-injury; it's still very rare to get a bowler regularly topping 150kmh and matching it with near-perfect line and length, so when people do, they struggle with it. The peak-era Windies could call on four guys with the ability to do that (not to mention numerous understudies) who could do that all the time; so there'd be a lot of stragglers.
- That being said, if it was played with modern protective equipment; modern postage-stamp style grounds, small boundaries; law changes favouring batsmen; that may very well even the score a fair bit.
- Steyn, Johnson during his hot streak, Shane Bond pre-injury; it's still very rare to get a bowler regularly topping 150kmh and matching it with near-perfect line and length, so when people do, they struggle with it. The peak-era Windies could call on four guys with the ability to do that (not to mention numerous understudies) who could do that all the time; so there'd be a lot of stragglers.
- That being said, if it was played with modern protective equipment; modern postage-stamp style grounds, small boundaries; law changes favouring batsmen; that may very well even the score a fair bit.
