More casualties of the Iraq War: US Cuts Food Aid

demon_dave

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#26
Frodo said:
I'm happy here, thanks

And I'm much happier with the possibility of ignorance than the probability of mental illness, as appears to be your case.
I'm not happy your here, please go with birdbrain ignoramus
 

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demon_dave

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#27
PerthCrow said:
I just find the ''end justifies the means'' mentality very hard to understand? At what point ,as you say, do good guys become just as bad?

Everyone who supports the Bush admin always say Saddam was an @rsehole , yet when you point out there are plenty more they go quiet. I am sure there could have been more effective ways of removing Saddam and family,. But the cynic in me says that wouldnt have been an effective smokescreen to cover the disappointing effort in going after Osama.
Saddam was scapegoat, its been proven time and time again he had nothing to do with osama, it is a smokescreen but not for the reasons you say, it is a smokescreen to get their hands on oilfields
 

medusala

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#28
dan warna said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html

100,000 civilians murdered and 150,000 iraqi legitimate soldiers murdered by US bombs.

In the latest survey, 81 percent of Iraqis also expressed “no confidence” in Coalition forces

you of course don't give a damn about iraqis and are happy for them to die as long as haliburton gets their oil which is why you are supporter of murderers and theives.
Statistics obviously not your strong point. Look at what the article (biased as the Guardian typically is) actually says.

a) 100k civilians have died since the invasion. Now obviously some of them are due to natural causes, in fact the article states "They found an increase in infant mortality from 29 to 57 deaths per 1,000 live births". Thus over half the infant mortality rate is NOT due to the war.

b) "When death certificates were not available, there were good reasons, say the authors. "We think it is unlikely that deaths were falsely recorded. Interviewers also believed that in the Iraqi culture it was unlikely for respondents to fabricate deaths," they write."

Well given your poll of how unpopular they are you dont think the population asked would show some bias? Hardly a very scientific study.

c)"Despite widespread Iraqi casualties, household interview data do not show evidence of widespread wrongdoing on the part of individual soldiers on the ground," write the researchers

Interesting.

d) as Birdy pointed out the civilian death toll includes all those killed rebels/freedom fighters in car bombings collateral damage as well as rebels/ terrorists themselves.

You are clearly double counting here. There is no way 150k Iraqi soldiers were killed by the USA. This figure (no idea where you plucked it from) MUST include irregular fighters who are included in the civilian death toll. So one death counts for two in your book.

e) so take your rubbery 100k deaths, eliminate those of natural causes, eliminate those killed by Iraqis, eliminate Iraqi insurgents and you have a totally different figure.

f) Haliburton isnt an oil company so it cant steal oil. It provides services and infrastructure to the industry. Not much point it stealing oil given they dont drill, refine nor sell oil.
 

star27

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#30
they also try to rule the election!!!!!!!!!! they don't register people who won't vote for the one they want!!!!!!!!!!!
are we assisting in world war two the remake???? with bush as dictator !!!!,??? I think so!!!
 

medusala

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#31
star27 said:
they also try to rule the election!!!!!!!!!! they don't register people who won't vote for the one they want!!!!!!!!!!!
are we assisting in world war two the remake???? with bush as dictator !!!!,??? I think so!!!
Better tell the French then, they will need to know who to surrender to.
 

dan warna

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#32
MEDUSALA lies again and misquotes, here are other quotes from the same article WITHOUT the medusala out of context quotes starting with the FIRST paragraph:

About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by coalition forces, according to the first reliable study of the death toll from Iraqi and US public health experts

The research was led by Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore


"US General Tommy Franks is widely quoted as saying 'we don't do body counts'," they write, but occupying armies have responsibilities under the Geneva convention."This survey shows that with modest funds, four weeks and seven Iraqi team members willing to risk their lives, a useful measure of civilan deaths could be obtained."

The other increase was in violent death, which was reported in 15 of the 33 clusters studied and which was mostly attributed to airstrikes.

and from the CBC website
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/10/28/iraq_deaths041028.html

LONDON - Nearly 100,000 more Iraqis have died during the American-led occupation than would have been expected otherwise, a study posted on The Lancet medical journal's website Thursday estimates



mmm haliburton isn't an oil company?

from haliburtons own website..

http://www.halliburton.com/news/archive/2004/corpnws_052504.jsp
http://www.halliburton.com/news/archive/2004/corpnws_031804.jsp

it seems to think its in the oil industry, you seem to be the outsider there

now what to do others think of Haliburton and its subsidiaries?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/25/60minutes/main551091.shtml
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/govt_docs/2004/3147waxman_hallib1.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1162392,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22547-2004May12.html

in fact the so called 4 'contractors' executed by iraqi freedom fighters were in fact ex SF merceneries death squad including i think 3 ex seals and 1 ex ranger employed by haliburton to do dirty work, there was no food convoy, there was no supply convey, they were heavily armed in an unmarked vehicle in territory without official knowledge, locals claim they were a death squad of the illegal occupying force.

so even when you lie, you lie so badly medusala
 

demon_dave

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#33
Time and time again we find proof of the despicable dealings and goings on in Iraq, the lying and cheating and killing of innocents, but i'm afraid the right-wing supporters on this site will not see or listen to logic. The brainwashed twits will continue to turn a blind eye to the atrocities perpertrated by the evil empire and its cohorts(OZ&UK)
 

dan warna

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#34
medusala said:
Better tell the French then, they will need to know who to surrender to.
poor old french, in for another lambasting.

the americans have a fine tradition in war of killing women and children from General Sherman the cowardly killer of native american women and chidren, to General Custer the rapist and child killer to General Powell, if it moves when you shoot at him kill him, to general Tommy Franks 'we don't keep a count of the civilians we shoot' faux pas.

of course with 2 million odd vietnamese murdered in the US doctrinal war, and the toppling of democratically elected leaders around the world to support of dictators like pinochet, the sharia law, undemocratic Saudi's and kuwaitis, to their man Saddam, oh we don't like him any more, to marcos, suharto, the shah, etc etc.

all class the americans.
 

medusala

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#36
dan warna said:
MEDUSALA lies again and misquotes, here are other quotes from the same article WITHOUT the medusala out of context quotes starting with the FIRST paragraph:

About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by coalition forces, according to the first reliable study of the death toll from Iraqi and US public health experts

The research was led by Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore


"US General Tommy Franks is widely quoted as saying 'we don't do body counts'," they write, but occupying armies have responsibilities under the Geneva convention."This survey shows that with modest funds, four weeks and seven Iraqi team members willing to risk their lives, a useful measure of civilan deaths could be obtained."

The other increase was in violent death, which was reported in 15 of the 33 clusters studied and which was mostly attributed to airstrikes.

and from the CBC website
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/10/28/iraq_deaths041028.html

LONDON - Nearly 100,000 more Iraqis have died during the American-led occupation than would have been expected otherwise, a study posted on The Lancet medical journal's website Thursday estimates



mmm haliburton isn't an oil company?

from haliburtons own website..

http://www.halliburton.com/news/archive/2004/corpnws_052504.jsp
http://www.halliburton.com/news/archive/2004/corpnws_031804.jsp

it seems to think its in the oil industry, you seem to be the outsider there

now what to do others think of Haliburton and its subsidiaries?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/25/60minutes/main551091.shtml
http://www.larouchepub.com/other/govt_docs/2004/3147waxman_hallib1.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1162392,00.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22547-2004May12.html

in fact the so called 4 'contractors' executed by iraqi freedom fighters were in fact ex SF merceneries death squad including i think 3 ex seals and 1 ex ranger employed by haliburton to do dirty work, there was no food convoy, there was no supply convey, they were heavily armed in an unmarked vehicle in territory without official knowledge, locals claim they were a death squad of the illegal occupying force.

so even when you lie, you lie so badly medusala
You clearly are deluded as I have shown time and time again

1) The Halliburton stealing oil myth:

From your own links.

"Halliburton and KBR will offer a range of services including subsurface oilfield services, development planning, engineering, construction, production and maintenance support to Oil Search's"

"One is Halliburton, the Houston-based energy services and construction giant whose former CEO, ******** Cheney, is now vice president of the United States."

They are independent contractors to the industry. They dont undertake their own refining, production, exploration etc. I happen to know a bit about the industry. They are NOT an oil company in the sense that BP, Exxon, Royal Dutch/Shell, Saudi Aramco etc are.

2) Iraq body count

Your own link states the following:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/iraq/casualties.html

IraqiNon-combat military deaths include accidents, friendly fire incidents, suicides and incidents unrelated to fighting
Iraqi deaths: 14,880 to 17,076


During "major combat" (prior to May 1, 2003)
Military Deaths: 4,895 to 6,370


17k civilians and 6k soldiers seems a fair way off your 100k civilians and 150k soldiers doesnt it!!!!!!

again, your own quote:


LONDON - Nearly 100,000 more Iraqis have died during the American-led occupation than would have been expected otherwise, a study posted on The Lancet medical journal's website Thursday estimates


a)you ascribe all these deaths to the coalition forces when clearly they are not responsible for the many deaths of civilians caused by Iraqis themselves.

b) of these Iraqis, how many were actually combatants???

You are way off the mark. You are making up numbers as you go along. It was either you or the other DD that claimed the US had killed 500k people in Afghanistan and Iraq without a shred of evidence, even from the excruciatingly dubious sources you usually refer to.

You are a proven liar and exaggerator. Once again your propaganda is exposed as a complete load of crap.

And finally just read once again the first paragraph you quoted.

About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by coalition forces, according to the first reliable study of the death toll from Iraqi and US public health experts

The research was led by Les Roberts of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore

"US General Tommy Franks is widely quoted as saying 'we don't do body counts'," they write, but occupying armies have responsibilities under the Geneva convention."This survey shows that with modest funds, four weeks and seven Iraqi team members willing to risk their lives, a useful measure of civilan deaths could be obtained."

The other increase was in violent death, which was reported in 15 of the 33 clusters studied and which was mostly attributed to airstrikes.

So death by air strike is different to violent death caused by airstrike is it?? This where you learned to double count??

Funny how Stalins 30m is of no great note but 100k alleged deaths at the hands of the US gets you frothing at the mouth.
 

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dan warna

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#37
your definition of who is in and who is out is limited by your own lack of understanding.

Haliburton has been given billions of dollars worth of contracts wrt to rebuilding, managing and distributing the oil resources, they themselves say so, but you choose not to see it.

the first sentence of the post say's

About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by coalition forces, according to the first reliable study of the death toll from Iraqi and US public health experts

and wtf has stalin got to do with anything? I have never been a stalinist, or a communist, or socialist, I am believe in a market economy, I am pro socially responsible capitalism so what has stalins brutal rule got to do with this? do you also want to discuss the 2.5 million vietnamese murdered by the US during the 60s and 70s in a doctrinal war?

you are a weak apologist and a liar
 

medusala

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#38
dan warna said:
your definition of who is in and who is out is limited by your own lack of understanding.

Haliburton has been given billions of dollars worth of contracts wrt to rebuilding, managing and distributing the oil resources, they themselves say so, but you choose not to see it.

the first sentence of the post say's

About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by coalition forces, according to the first reliable study of the death toll from Iraqi and US public health experts

and wtf has stalin got to do with anything? I have never been a stalinist, or a communist, or socialist, I am believe in a market economy, I am pro socially responsible capitalism so what has stalins brutal rule got to do with this? do you also want to discuss the 2.5 million vietnamese murdered by the US during the 60s and 70s in a doctrinal war?

you are a weak apologist and a liar
a) Halliburton isnt an oil company, I have never denied the fact they have been granted contracts.

b) "About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by coalition forces, according to the first reliable study of the death toll from Iraqi and US public health experts"

You have twisted this into 100k civilians have been murdered by the US as a cast iron fact.

Cant quite see how on earth makes me a liar, I am using your own quotes and links to show that you are making erroneus and misleading assumptions.

I am hardly an apologist for the Yanks. I have said a number of times they are useless soldiers and are clueless in a situation like this just as they were in Bosnia. That however is irrelevant, we are arguing over your ability to back up your statement that the US has killed 100k civilians. You cant prove this. Then again I have yet to see a single shred of evidence to back up your claim that the US has killed 150k legitimate Iraq soldiers.

You are the one making all the claims, how about backing them up for once.
 

skilts

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#39
Before the so-called war in Iraq began, it was obvious that the U.S. had no plan to administer the thereafter. Regardless of whether one thinks the invasion was justified, it was never a consideration that the U.S. would be adequately able to police 'the peace'.

This is what happens when democracy runs rampant and the imbeciles win power due to their appeal to the common man. The common man is SO common and that's what the thinking on this issue has been - common.

However, all is not lost, we in the west who have attached ourselves to this project, will have a couple of hundred years to contemplate our folly.

The thinking will be instructive. Or not.
 
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Thread starter Moderator #40
You cannot just declare a democracy and walk away. It takes generations for the ideas of democracy to take root. Even then, the resulting democracy may be nothing like those we know today. Iraqis don't have a clue about democracy. They don't know how to use it, what to do with it.

Civil unrest happened during the conversion of the old USSR to a free market economy. That process STILL isn't complete with rebels, dictators, warlords and crime bosses all over the place. Not to mention hundreds of serial killers and other psychos.

Idiots fell for the WMD argument. Idiots fell for the idea that this would be a quick engagement. Now the mercenaries are entrenched and will not leave because the money is too good.

It sounds melodramatic but one of the causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was the use of non-Romans as soldiers. These guys racked off home as soon as the money ran out or set up their own little kingdoms and left the obese, corrupt Romans to be invaded from all directions. While it is unlikely to collapse spectacularly overnight, the USA that my grandchildren or great-grandchildren will grow up with will possibly not be recognisable to the USA of today. Neither will Iraq be the same.

Now the Yanks are in there they have a duty to finish what they've started. Unfortunately it might cost a fair bit more than originally anticipated and so they are shouting for other countries and organisations to do more. I say stuff them. They started it, they can finish it.
 
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