Opinion Most overrated players from each team?

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tiger_tough

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 24, 2008
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Not sure, I would say a few.

Dylan Moore is 1st in the competition for total free kicks. McKay is 3rd. Plenty of other goal-kickers in the top rankings (Heeney, Breust). Do we minimise their goals from free kick? Do goals from free kick count for less points?
But the majority of their goals wouldn't be from free kicks, whereas I assume the majority of Ginnivans are?

Anyway it was just a question. No doubt he's talented, it will be interesting to see what he's like when his first instinct when he wins the ball isn't to search for a high free kick.
 

Guardian Hawk

Premiership Player
Oct 16, 2003
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No norm smiths had 3 opportunities. Even if you give the 78 one, it’s only 1. He does not even compare to 5 x MVP, 2 x Brownlow, 8x AA GAJ, not as good as Dusty in finals and not as good as Buddy at kicking goals. As other guys have pointed out the skill in that era was atrocious compared to today. It really isn’t a contest.

Also the MVP award was made in 1982, the other greats of the game like GAS and Carey weren’t around. Norm Smith wasn’t as good as Dusty in finals so who it was named after doesn’t matter.


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You've misunderstood on the MVP thing. I'm not saying he was the best cos the award was named after him. I was providing some further historical context - that the decision to bring in an MVP award voted by your peers was thought of as a result of the recognition that someone like Leigh Matthews - considered the best to have played the game by all of his peers - had not won any League wide awards due to the only one at the time - the Brownlow - having the fairest criteria attached. They wanted to introduce an award that better reflected the best players in the league (as voted by peers) in recognition of the "crapshoot" that the Brownlow was at the time. Leigh was the main example for this as EVERYONE knew he was the best player year in, year out but did not win the Brownlow due to his aggression (an aspect of the game far more accepted then than now).

He then went on to win the first MVP comfortably, despite being in the absolute twilight of a long career. Had it been implemented 10 years earlier, he would have a closet full of them. It's the exact same for the AA and Brownlow - had they existed in their current interpretation, he would have stacks of both (or at least for the Brownlow - years and years of most votes but not eligible to win due to suspension). Go back through the media of the time or the stats of the time or the opinion pieces of the time and tell me which years he wouldn't have been AA? I can assure you he would have more than the current players. You then say, he retrospectively 'only' won 1 NS, when the player you are comparing to won none? He also kicked 6 goals (next most on the ground was 3) in the next Grand Final and was very unlucky not to win the Norm Smith that year. He was his side's best in the Grand Final the year after too, again kicking 4 goals but his team lost so was never winning the Norm. These games were also played in the absolute twilight of his career - when he had mostly moved out of the middle and was in his mid 30's and he was still his side's best on the day. As far as performances in Grand Finals go, he was probably only 2nd to Dusty all time - definately better than Hodge who has 2 Norms!

As for the part about "not as good at Dusty in finals" and "not as good as Buddy at kicking goals" - sis that serious. You are creating a mythical hybrid player with the best ever in each attribute that doesn't exist and saying he is not as good. That itself is an argument why he is up there in all time considerations. Of course he is not a good a goalkicker as arguably one of the greatest key forwards of all time. But he is a much, much, much better goalkicker than all the players you are actually comparing him to and all the other mids. He is also a better finals player than all the others you mentioned bar maybe Dusty, etc, etc.
 

HairyO

Hall of Famer
Jul 13, 2015
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You've misunderstood on the MVP thing. I'm not saying he was the best cos the award was named after him. I was providing some further historical context - that the decision to bring in an MVP award voted by your peers was thought of as a result of the recognition that someone like Leigh Matthews - considered the best to have played the game by all of his peers - had not won any League wide awards due to the only one at the time - the Brownlow - having the fairest criteria attached. They wanted to introduce an award that better reflected the best players in the league (as voted by peers) in recognition of the "crapshoot" that the Brownlow was at the time. Leigh was the main example for this as EVERYONE knew he was the best player year in, year out but did not win the Brownlow due to his aggression (an aspect of the game far more accepted then than now).

He then went on to win the first MVP comfortably, despite being in the absolute twilight of a long career. Had it been implemented 10 years earlier, he would have a closet full of them. It's the exact same for the AA and Brownlow - had they existed in their current interpretation, he would have stacks of both (or at least for the Brownlow - years and years of most votes but not eligible to win due to suspension). Go back through the media of the time or the stats of the time or the opinion pieces of the time and tell me which years he wouldn't have been AA? I can assure you he would have more than the current players. You then say, he retrospectively 'only' won 1 NS, when the player you are comparing to won none? He also kicked 6 goals (next most on the ground was 3) in the next Grand Final and was very unlucky not to win the Norm Smith that year. He was his side's best in the Grand Final the year after too, again kicking 4 goals but his team lost so was never winning the Norm. These games were also played in the absolute twilight of his career - when he had mostly moved out of the middle and was in his mid 30's and he was still his side's best on the day. As far as performances in Grand Finals go, he was probably only 2nd to Dusty all time - definately better than Hodge who has 2 Norms!

As for the part about "not as good at Dusty in finals" and "not as good as Buddy at kicking goals" - sis that serious. You are creating a mythical hybrid player with the best ever in each attribute that doesn't exist and saying he is not as good. That itself is an argument why he is up there in all time considerations. Of course he is not a good a goalkicker as arguably one of the greatest key forwards of all time. But he is a much, much, much better goalkicker than all the players you are actually comparing him to and all the other mids. He is also a better finals player than all the others you mentioned bar maybe Dusty, etc, etc.

Same logic says Clarko isnt that good a coach because he never won a coach of the year award.

Which is just plain silly.

Awards dont determine ability. Actual performance does. Matthews did things noone before, during or after him have ever done. He was a freak.
 

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Guardian Hawk

Premiership Player
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Same logic says Clarko isnt that good a coach because he never won a coach of the year award.

Which is just plain silly.

Awards dont determine ability. Actual performance does. Matthews did things noone before, during or after him have ever done. He was a freak.

Pretty much - although the "logic" is even worse than that - Clarko is not a good coach because he didn't win an award that is yet to be created.
 

Falcon3518

Club Legend
Mar 13, 2022
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Same logic says Clarko isnt that good a coach because he never won a coach of the year award.

Which is just plain silly.

Awards dont determine ability. Actual performance does. Matthews did things noone before, during or after him have ever done. He was a freak.

The problem is the after part. He hasn’t done what GAJ, Dusty and Buddy have done. Their records won’t be broken.


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Falcon3518

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Pretty much - although the "logic" is even worse than that - Clarko is not a good coach because he didn't win an award that is yet to be created.

The award is really just for the most improved not the best.


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Falcon3518

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You've misunderstood on the MVP thing. I'm not saying he was the best cos the award was named after him. I was providing some further historical context - that the decision to bring in an MVP award voted by your peers was thought of as a result of the recognition that someone like Leigh Matthews - considered the best to have played the game by all of his peers - had not won any League wide awards due to the only one at the time - the Brownlow - having the fairest criteria attached. They wanted to introduce an award that better reflected the best players in the league (as voted by peers) in recognition of the "crapshoot" that the Brownlow was at the time. Leigh was the main example for this as EVERYONE knew he was the best player year in, year out but did not win the Brownlow due to his aggression (an aspect of the game far more accepted then than now).

He then went on to win the first MVP comfortably, despite being in the absolute twilight of a long career. Had it been implemented 10 years earlier, he would have a closet full of them. It's the exact same for the AA and Brownlow - had they existed in their current interpretation, he would have stacks of both (or at least for the Brownlow - years and years of most votes but not eligible to win due to suspension). Go back through the media of the time or the stats of the time or the opinion pieces of the time and tell me which years he wouldn't have been AA? I can assure you he would have more than the current players. You then say, he retrospectively 'only' won 1 NS, when the player you are comparing to won none? He also kicked 6 goals (next most on the ground was 3) in the next Grand Final and was very unlucky not to win the Norm Smith that year. He was his side's best in the Grand Final the year after too, again kicking 4 goals but his team lost so was never winning the Norm. These games were also played in the absolute twilight of his career - when he had mostly moved out of the middle and was in his mid 30's and he was still his side's best on the day. As far as performances in Grand Finals go, he was probably only 2nd to Dusty all time - definately better than Hodge who has 2 Norms!

As for the part about "not as good at Dusty in finals" and "not as good as Buddy at kicking goals" - sis that serious. You are creating a mythical hybrid player with the best ever in each attribute that doesn't exist and saying he is not as good. That itself is an argument why he is up there in all time considerations. Of course he is not a good a goalkicker as arguably one of the greatest key forwards of all time. But he is a much, much, much better goalkicker than all the players you are actually comparing him to and all the other mids. He is also a better finals player than all the others you mentioned bar maybe Dusty, etc, etc.

Just to confirm something. How many GFs did Lethal play and how many of them was he BOG irrespective of Norm Smiths? Do they have a record of BOG or is it just off vibe?


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HairyO

Hall of Famer
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Just to confirm something. How many GFs did Lethal play and how many of them was he BOG irrespective of Norm Smiths? Do they have a record of BOG or is it just off vibe?


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BOG judged by who?

Media flogs and Gil ?
 

perplexed

Club Legend
Nov 25, 2015
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Just to confirm something. How many GFs did Lethal play and how many of them was he BOG irrespective of Norm Smiths? Do they have a record of BOG or is it just off vibe?


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Oh dear! Are you seriously arguing that Dustin Martin was as good as Leigh Matthews?
I hated and feared Matthews and loved Dusty - but the level Dusty reached in 2017, Matthews maintained or bettered for a decade or more.
 

Guardian Hawk

Premiership Player
Oct 16, 2003
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Just to confirm something. How many GFs did Lethal play and how many of them was he BOG irrespective of Norm Smiths? Do they have a record of BOG or is it just off vibe?


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Leigh Matthews played in 7 Grand Finals.

BOG's were awarded just he same as they are today (just no official Norm Smith medal) by various sources.

They're not easy to find but here is the article (at the bottom) including all the specific voting from that day. You'll note that they were voted on exactly the same way, just the actual Norm Smith wasn't yet a thing. You'll also note is says Matthews was voted BOG by the same method in EVERY final that year...

 
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Falcon3518

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Oh dear! Are you seriously arguing that Dustin Martin was as good as Leigh Matthews?
I hated and feared Matthews and loved Dusty - but the level Dusty reached in 2017, Matthews maintained or bettered for a decade or more.

I think people are taking my comment the wrong way. I’m actually asking a question, I’m not insinuating anything.


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Falcon3518

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Leigh Matthews played in 7 Grand Finals.

BOG's were awarded just he same as they are today (just no official Norm Smith medal) by various sources.

They're not easy to find but here is the article (at the bottom) including all the specific voting from that day. You'll note that they were voted on exactly the same way, just the actual Norm Smith wasn't yet a thing. You'll also note is says Matthews was voted BOG by the same method in EVERY final that year...


The link doesn’t work. And that’s not possible to be voted BOG in every GF. He played in 3 GFs that were around when the NS was and he didn’t win any. He also lost some GFs prior to 79 right? doubt he would’ve been BOG in those, is this a media organisations vote or something?


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Falcon3518

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Which of his records did any of them break ?

Well GAJ beat him in every H&A record known to man. 5 MVPs will not be broken. Dusty beats Leigh in finals including GFs 3 NS’s will not be broken, Buddy has 4 Coleman’s which is also a record. I know it’s not fair to compare as he is a forward though. Still proves he’s a better and more skilful goal kicker than Leigh especially since he did it in the AFL era against professionals and team defence. 1000 goals will not be kicked again.

These guys are the best of the best, if they still aren’t good enough compared to Leigh nobody ever will be. Your standards are way to high and you are remembering him better than what he was. He lost 3/7 GFs he’s not unbeatable.

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Guardian Hawk

Premiership Player
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The link doesn’t work. And that’s not possible to be voted BOG in every GF. He played in 3 GFs that were around when the NS was and he didn’t win any. He also lost some GFs prior to 79 right? doubt he would’ve been BOG in those, is this a media organisations vote or something?


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Works for me - also, every Hawthron final in 1978 (it is an article from the day after the 78 GF) - not every GF of his career obviously.
 

hawkman

Brownlow Medallist
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Well GAJ beat him in every H&A record known to man. 5 MVPs will not be broken. Dusty beats Leigh in finals including GFs 3 NS’s will not be broken, Buddy has 4 Coleman’s which is also a record. I know it’s not fair to compare as he is a forward though. Still proves he’s a better and more skilful goal kicker than Leigh especially since he did it in the AFL era against professionals and team defence. 1000 goals will not be kicked again.

These guys are the best of the best, if they still aren’t good enough compared to Leigh nobody ever will be. Your standards are way to high and you are remembering him better than what he was. He lost 3/7 GFs he’s not unbeatable.

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None of that is impossible to break

Franklin's 4 Colemans is equal with Lockett. There were a number of players who led the goal kicking more times than that before the Coleman medal was handed out
 

gouki88

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Well GAJ beat him in every H&A record known to man. 5 MVPs will not be broken. Dusty beats Leigh in finals including GFs 3 NS’s will not be broken, Buddy has 4 Coleman’s which is also a record. I know it’s not fair to compare as he is a forward though. Still proves he’s a better and more skilful goal kicker than Leigh especially since he did it in the AFL era against professionals and team defence. 1000 goals will not be kicked again.

These guys are the best of the best, if they still aren’t good enough compared to Leigh nobody ever will be. Your standards are way to high and you are remembering him better than what he was. He lost 3/7 GFs he’s not unbeatable.

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Dick Lee was the leading goalkicker 7x, Gordon Coventry was the leading goalkicker 6x, including 5 in a row, and Coleman himself also won 5 in a row.
 

Falcon3518

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Dick Lee was the leading goalkicker 7x, Gordon Coventry was the leading goalkicker 6x, including 5 in a row, and Coleman himself also won 5 in a row.

Are these club leading goal kickers or Coleman’s? Either way it’s not as impressive as Buddy’s in the AFL era.


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gouki88

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Are these club leading goal kickers or Coleman’s? Either way it’s not as impressive as Buddy’s in the AFL era.


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These are VFL leading goal kickers, but prior to it being named the Coleman medal. Coventry, by way of example, has 16 club leading goal kicker awards.

Coventry's records are more impressive than Buddy's. He was the one and only 1000+ goal kicker until 1974, when Doug Wade became the 2nd. He kicked 1299 overall, the second most in V/AFL history. His longevity was also unheard of - no player who debuted in the 20s played more games than he did (he debuted in 1920), and he is one of 3 players who played in the 1930s to have played 300+. He also won 5 flags.
 

Falcon3518

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These are VFL leading goal kickers, but prior to it being named the Coleman medal. Coventry, by way of example, has 16 club leading goal kicker awards.

Coventry's records are more impressive than Buddy's. He was the one and only 1000+ goal kicker until 1974, when Doug Wade became the 2nd. He kicked 1299 overall, the second most in V/AFL history. His longevity was also unheard of - no player who debuted in the 20s played more games than he did (he debuted in 1920), and he is one of 3 players who played in the 1930s to have played 300+. He also won 5 flags.

Well they could definitely kick better than Matthews then. Even more reason why he’s not the GOAT.


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Falcon3518

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Works for me - also, every Hawthron final in 1978 (it is an article from the day after the 78 GF) - not every GF of his career obviously.

That’s impressive but not unheard of. Dusty has done it multiple times and GAS has too.


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