Motchin > Dangerwood

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Do the Dew said:
This is a joke yeah?

Dusty has been BOG or very close to it in almost every final from 2017. Whereas Danger has continually gone missing.

There's a far far better chance that Dusty will perform this weekend than Dangerflop will.
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Dangerfield has never played in a Grand Final, but has played in plenty of finals and been dominant in most of them, just as Dusty has. Dusty's average possessions in finals is lower than in his in-season matches. Dangerfield's is higher in finals than ordinary season. Which is pretty stunning considering you're always up against better opposition in finals and he's been in Brownlow contention most years. Almost every player averages less in finals than in ordinary season.

Pretty sure Martin wasn't close to BOG in the loss to Brisbane just two weeks ago. (nor was Dangerfield against Port). Martin was also ordinary when the tigers lost to Collingwood in 2018, so he's just as prone to ordinary finals as anyone of the calibre of these players. But to say Dusty is BOG in almost every final from 2017 is just plain incorrect.
 
Whilst there is certainly some mayo in that statement, it isn't as outrageous as it may sound.

Since 2017 he has received 59 Ayres votes from the coaches in 10 Finals at an average at 5.9 per match which is insane.

Danger has got 26 votes in 9 finals at 2.9 per match over that period. I think it is pretty comprehensive that Dusty has been far more damaging in finals than Danger despite the stats changing.

Whilst his stats are certainly not poor, the eye test (and the coaches, if you give their votes any weight) seem to follow the narrative that he doesn't have the same positive impact as he does in the home and away season. It almost feels like previously he thought he had to do everything himself and it was not helping Geelong win. It seems to have changed this year and I think he will pose Richmond the most trouble he ever has this Saturday because of it.
 
These 4 Walls said:
Whilst there is certainly some mayo in that statement, it isn't as outrageous as it may sound.

Since 2017 he has received 59 Ayres votes from the coaches in 10 Finals at an average at 5.9 per match which is insane.

Danger has got 26 votes in 9 finals at 2.9 per match over that period. I think it is pretty comprehensive that Dusty has been far more damaging in finals than Danger despite the stats changing.

Whilst his stats are certainly not poor, the eye test (and the coaches, if you give their votes any weight) seem to follow the narrative that he doesn't have the same positive impact as he does in the home and away season. It almost feels like previously he thought he had to do everything himself and it was not helping Geelong win. It seems to have changed this year and I think he will pose Richmond the most trouble he ever has this Saturday because of it.
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I don't think many people would argue that Martin hasn't been better, the stupid notion that, because in one half of footy the Cats were overrun by the Tigers, Dangerfield is some sort of finals spectre that never shows up is representative of the mind-boggling mental incompetency of a lot of people on this board who seem to think that Don Bradman was a s**t batsman because he once got a duck and thus if Dangerfield doesn't kick every goal or have every possession he isn't making a contribution. Aside from maybe Tom Stewart who I don't think has ever played a bad game for us, Dangerfield has been our best finals player since he arrived.
 

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TiggerMan22 said:
Serious question. Do you think all elite players make AA?
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Well depends on how you define elite? How many players in the comp do you rate as elite?

I can understand not making it every year but he made it once in a 5 year period. That does not scream elite.
 
BJK#5 said:
Well depends on how you define elite? How many players in the comp do you rate as elite?

I can understand not making it every year but he made it once in a 5 year period. That does not scream elite.
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Na it depends on how you define elite. Which is apparently based purely on AA appearances? Which makes it interesting considering Richmond had 0 players in the 2013 AA SQUAD even though we finished 2 points off 4th place. Amazing we did that with no players even close to elite .

15, 26, 19, 18 and 17 brownlow votes over 5 years aint bad eh?
 
PhatBoy said:
Considering one of the players you're trying to compare him too has been there 6 times compared to 1, I'd say the difference is big enough to be fairly suggestive of their relative levels of performance across their career.
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It would if you consider AA the absolute sacred decider of players skill :)
 
TiggerMan22 said:
Na it depends on how you define elite. Which is apparently based purely on AA appearances? Which makes it interesting considering Richmond had 0 players in the 2013 AA SQUAD even though we finished 2 points off 4th place. Amazing we did that with no players even close to elite .

15, 26, 19, 18 and 17 brownlow votes over 5 years aint bad eh?
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No i don't rate him as elite and think AA is a measurement to show that, if the AA team has 7-10 midfielders getting picked and he is consistently missing out that would mean he is probably not an elite mid.
 
Saint said:
But Dangerfield is better than Martin. He butchers it more (dusty is a better kick), but Dangerfield gets it more (including in finals), gets his own clearances, takes more contested marks and is more dangerous when the ball isn't in his hands.
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Dangerfield hasn’t even been better in finals than Selwood let alone Martin.


AFL player ratings finals 2010-2019:

#1 Dustin Martin
#2 Josh P Kennedy
#3 Dane Swan
#4 Adam Goodes
#5 Joel Selwood
#6 Scott Pendlebury
#7 Patrick Dangerfield
 
TiggerMan22 said:
Serious question. Do you think all elite players make AA?
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Definition of the word elite:
a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society

I would take things like Club B&F's during successful years, Brownlow votes and All Australian appearances into account.

Selwood wipes the floor with Cotchin by any of these measures. The only exception being that Cotchin won a Brownlow when Richmond finished 12th. Statistically, Selwood also mops the floor with Cotchin in just about every category across careers, but Cotchin ahead this year.

Unless you include half the midfielders in the league as being "elite" it's hard to include Cotchin. There are usually about 6 midfielders in the AA team and he's only made it once, 8 years ago. Selwood's been captain twice.

That being said, I still think Cotchin has been better than Selwood this year, but Selwood has had a more successful career (so far). Disposals-wise, Selwood's 17 average per game this year is the lowest of his career.
 
Danger going missing in finals is one of the dumbest narratives on this forum. He had a bad half in the PF last year vs Richmond (after dominating the first) and now all of a sudden he always goes missing in finals. He has been our best on in almost every final he's played for us, he has consistanly been carrying Geelong since he got here.
 

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PhatBoy said:
When? When has he continually gone missing? Mate he had one quiet half against the best team of the last 4 years. Stop making things up. It seriously cannot be that difficult to simply type "Patrick Dangerfield AFL Tables" into Google. You look like a fool.
These are his finals performances since joining the Cats. Bearing in mind he's spent more time forward this year than he has in the middle..
Now, save maybe for the WIN against West Coast (where he had all but four of his touches contested anyway so it's not like he wasn't having an impact, and he still got the ball inside 50 more than any other player on the field), could you please point to a game where he unequivicolly just wasn't there. Thanks in advance.

17 touches, 3 goal assists, 9 inside 50s, 3 clearances (win vs Brisbane)
19 touches, 4 goals, 9 contested possessions, 2 inside 50s, 3 clearances (win vs Collingwood)
22 touches, 1 goal, 10 contested, 7 inside 50s, 6 clearances (loss vs Port)
27 touches, 1 goal, 7 clearances, 4 inside 50s (loss vs Richmond)
18 touches, 0 goals, 7 inside 50s, 14 contested possessions, 5 clearances (win vs West Coast)
32 touches, 1 goal, 1 goal assist, 7 inside 50s, 7 clearances loss vs Collingwood)
25 touches, 7 tacjkles, 1 goal assist, 3 inside 50s, 14 contested possessions, 4 clearances (loss vs Melbourne)
24 touches, 2 goals, 9 tackles, 5 clearances, 14 contested possessions (loss vs Adelaide)
26 touches, 4 goals, 4 contested marks (win vs Sydney)
31 touches, 1 goal (loss vs Richmond)
39 touches, 1 goal, 9 inside 50s, 9 clearances, 21 contested possessions (loss vs Sydney)
35 touches, 1 goal assist, 6 inside 50s, 7 clearances, 19 contested possessions (win vs Hawthorn)
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Do the Dew

Still waiting for your reply champ.
 
kozi said:
Dangerfield hasn’t even been better in finals than Selwood let alone Martin.


AFL player ratings finals 2010-2019:

#1 Dustin Martin
#2 Josh P Kennedy
#3 Dane Swan
#4 Adam Goodes
#5 Joel Selwood
#6 Scott Pendlebury
#7 Patrick Dangerfield
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Notice something all 6 of those in front of him have in common?
 
kozi said:
Dangerfield hasn’t even been better in finals than Selwood let alone Martin.


AFL player ratings finals 2010-2019:

#1 Dustin Martin
#2 Josh P Kennedy
#3 Dane Swan
#4 Adam Goodes
#5 Joel Selwood
#6 Scott Pendlebury
#7 Patrick Dangerfield
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What is it over the last 5 years?
 
Wojcinski said:
Danger going missing in finals is one of the dumbest narratives on this forum. He had a bad half in the PF last year vs Richmond (after dominating the first) and now all of a sudden he always goes missing in finals. He has been our best on in almost every final he's played for us, he has consistanly been carrying Geelong since he got here.
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based on their logic, Gary Rohan is a finals specialist at the moment
 
Saint said:
Definition of the word elite:
a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society

I would take things like Club B&F's during successful years, Brownlow votes and All Australian appearances into account.

Selwood wipes the floor with Cotchin by any of these measures. The only exception being that Cotchin won a Brownlow when Richmond finished 12th. Statistically, Selwood also mops the floor with Cotchin in just about every category across careers, but Cotchin ahead this year.

Unless you include half the midfielders in the league as being "elite" it's hard to include Cotchin. There are usually about 6 midfielders in the AA team and he's only made it once, 8 years ago. Selwood's been captain twice.

That being said, I still think Cotchin has been better than Selwood this year, but Selwood has had a more successful career (so far). Disposals-wise, Selwood's 17 average per game this year is the lowest of his career.
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Also even using the Brownlow votes measure, how many elite ball-winners and vote getters has Selwood shared his career with? Cotchin has had 1.

Selwood has played his career alongside Bartel, Ablett, Johnson, Corey, Dangerfield and Chapman who've polled over 75 votes.

Removing Richardson, who played 26 games after Cotchin's debut, Cotchin has 1, then it drops to Deledio on exactly 75.

Selwood is still 65 votes clear. So the old 'he has others taking votes off him' can't even be applied. By any measurable and quantifiable statistic, as two specialist midfielders, there is no argument as to who has been the better player.
 
kozi said:
It’s player ratings.. nothing else is taken into account except individual performance on the day. Not sure what’s there to argue.
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They're all permanent midfielders. Not that I have a problem with the rankings anyway as I believe all those players are outstanding in finals, but only one of those players spends significant time forward, and from memory in his last 3 finals and at least one other, Dangerfield has spent far more time forward than in the middle.
 
PhatBoy said:
They're all permanent midfielders. Not that I have a problem with the rankings anyway as I believe all those players are outstanding in finals, but only one of those players spends significant time forward, and from memory in his last 3 finals and at least one other, Dangerfield has spent far more time forward than in the middle.
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Well this is just incorrect. Martin spends just as much time forward as Dangerfield. Check their respective heat maps for the 3 games these finals and it’s almost dead even at around 60%.

I appreciate the reach but just no.
 
kozi said:
Well this is just incorrect. Martin spends just as much time forward as Dangerfield. Check their respective heat maps for the 3 games these finals and it’s almost dead even at around 60%.

I appreciate the reach but just no.
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but you were using data from 2010-2019 so how do these finals relate?
 
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