Moving Australia to 100% Renewable Energy would actually SAVE us money.

So have you sold your soul to a petrochemical company yet?

  • No, but I'm hoping they'll give me a call any day now!

  • Nah but I know a guy who knows a guy who has his snout in the trough. its a juicy racket!

  • Nope I stick to intelligent design & anti-vac, denying climate change is too loopy even for me

  • Yes and I would do it again! Money will buy me happiness so I crave MORE MORE MORE

  • Yes, but everyone else is doing it and the world's stuffed anyway and.... God I hate myself.


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SaintsSeptember

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is it? victoria is closing coal stations left right and centre. actually, theyre closing themselves because theyre not economically viable. but the libs dont like free market forces when it doesnt go the way they want.

the generation tech exists, the battery tech exists (again, adelaide is proof it is is both possible and quick). its years of lack of investment and maintenance causing pretty much all the issues. yay for years of privatisation and coal subsidies.

They have closed ONE major Coal Power Station EVER!.
FFS the Tesla battery in S.A. stops the grid having a meltdown if the sun goes behind a cloud.

Even if the coal stations closed "due to being not profitable enough" the operators would not care if Victorian households had regular blackouts.
Not their concern. No-ones concern apparently.
 

FireKrakouer

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With my 24 solar panels I need to generate close to 4 times the power I use in order to get a bill of $0

Ridiculous

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Can I ask what the size of your system is in KW, and if you have any shading? Also your FIT (Feed In Tariff) is quite relevant.
 

00Stinger

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Can I ask what the size of your system is in KW, and if you have any shading? Also your FIT (Feed In Tariff) is quite relevant.
6400 at full power which is never gets too. Highest I have seen it is just over 5000

Feed in is 12 cents and I buy at 26 cents

No shade either

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Power Raid

TheBrownDog
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The thing is, proper storage systems are viable and do exist. look at the tesla battery in adelaide for example. in some places, hydrogen itself is used as a storage system (solar electrolyzes water into hydrogen during the day and stores it, to be burnt at night when solar isnt working).

burning gas is certainly better than coal, but overlooking new technology and simply building a less worse power station to replace the old one, is a lazy short term fix. its going to be basically outdated and redundant the minute its finished.

we all know that the only reason the libs are so obsessed with burning gas against basically all expert (and state) advice, is because their friends own it. gotta look after their true base.

tesla battery is not a storage system that works for storing unless your view on storage is marginally longer than a teenage boy. It also cost circa $100m which means it is not only not viable in terms of capability but not viable financially. Then add to that the batteries only last circa 18-24 months, meaning the e-waste is material.

It is however very effective in stabilising grid.

with hydrogen it isn't just electrolysis of water............
1) we don't have that much fresh water so we have to desalinate water or invent anodes that don't deteriorate in minutes or hours
2) once produced it needs to be reduced to minus 250 degrees
3) to transport you need to turn hydrogen into ammonia

if it was as easy as electrolysis, it would have been done by now



In short, we need systems that work now and hydrogen is in its infancy (but will move quick) and batteries have a long way to go. That said we will see loads of battery stations being rolled out for grid stabilisation, which is a real issue for renewables.
 

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TheBrownDog
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thats why i said to use hydrogen alongside. Solar and wind provides over 50% of the uks power and its getting larger and larger every year, thats hardly a failed model unless youre wanting it to fail.

I describe a so called clean energy strategy that doesn't deliver low CO2 as failed

do you feel an energy strategy that delivers 15 time more dirty CO2 than the leading solutions successful?
 

theyellowsash

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I describe a so called clean energy strategy that doesn't deliver low CO2 as failed

do you feel an energy strategy that delivers 15 time more dirty CO2 than the leading solutions successful?
Quick, youd better go tell them that their significant cuts in greenhouse gas emissions has nothing to do with their significant increase in solar and other renewables. I'm sure they'll appreciate the warning that using solar is in fact increasing their emissions, especially if delivered with a ready made clean coal alternative for then to take up Instead.
 

medusala

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i love hydrogen, been talking about it for decades (literally did uni work on the subject over 10 years ago) but what i think is stupid is using gas/hydrogen. the big whinge about solar/wind is what happens if its dark and still (news flash, they seem to manage ok in the uk).

At the moment. The headling rush to net zero led by a chap desperate for a "look over there" to distract attention from his eco mad wallpaper and badger loving fiancee will be a massive anvil around the UK for decades to come.

Luckily I can post it here as "Comment Macht Frei" is semmingly verboten on the Boris Johnson thread for those who dont "think (as if the lemmings are capable of thinking) the right way".

Always disliked chihuahuas. Pointless yappers.
 
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Gough

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We're not even going top get the chance to find out with these knuckle heads running things.
 

SaintsSeptember

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IF a Coal power station put out 100 units of black ballons , and a Gas Power Station put out 50.

With current technology:
Renewable s alone : Negligible black balloon's but brownouts and blackouts would be common.
Assuming a shortfall of 20%,
Renewable with gas backup, = 10 balloons.
Renewable with coal backup, = 20 balloons.

That backup power is going to be expensive , the operator will be wanting to recover capital costs with only 20% utilisation.

So far the most viable large scale storage solution is the often ignored or criticised snowy hydro storage. It can seriously make a difference, but its leaning on existing infrastructure. If we want to do more we won't be able to do another one.
 

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TheBrownDog
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Quick, youd better go tell them that their significant cuts in greenhouse gas emissions has nothing to do with their significant increase in solar and other renewables. I'm sure they'll appreciate the warning that using solar is in fact increasing their emissions, especially if delivered with a ready made clean coal alternative for then to take up Instead.

pointing to a failed solution to justify a less failed solution is ridiculous

green house gases are increasing by a factor of 5 times in developing world's compared to the reductions we are delivering in OECD. 5 times! So pissing around with 10-20% reductions is nonsense and even 50% only buys us a decade. Or worse like France increasing CO2 by 30-60% with the introduction of solar and wind.

We need solutions that work rather than solutions that warm people's hearts.

We only have to look at Tasmania, France, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Ontario, New Zealand, Georgia, much of South America, parts of Japan achieved by the 1980s to understand what works and what doesn't.
 

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TheBrownDog
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Dirty CO2 , what a stupid thing to write.

I agree

I'm just trying to use language that resonates with the "I choose to be ignorant".

Anyone with a brain and chooses to be informed will note "no country in the world with a renewables strategy, has achieved 14-70g CO2 without hydro or nuclear". What they will also not is with hydro or nuclear, by introducing renewables costs go up and so to CO2.
 

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Kwality

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pointing to a failed solution to justify a less failed solution is ridiculous

green house gases are increasing by a factor of 5 times in developing world's compared to the reductions we are delivering in OECD. 5 times! So pissing around with 10-20% reductions is nonsense and even 50% only buys us a decade. Or worse like France increasing CO2 by 30-60% with the introduction of solar and wind.

We need solutions that work rather than solutions that warm people's hearts.

We only have to look at Tasmania, France, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Ontario, New Zealand, Georgia, much of South America, parts of Japan achieved by the 1980s to understand what works and what doesn't.

Appalling that keeping the lights on on the east coast has been so politicised that we cant even find a way forward.
 

Ned_Flanders

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Appalling that keeping the lights on on the east coast has been so politicised that we cant even find a way forward.

its not politics, its money

NSW and Victoria both have been begging for the private sector to build new coal power plants. So far they have refused, and are closing the existing ones faster than they need to.

Best example, NSW govt when they wanted to shut down one of their own plants, had an offer from the private sector. They would take it over, if they got it for free, and a massive bag of money, and they would only keep operating it for a few more years.

I dont know the NSW policy, but given Victoria got out of socialized power generation, if the private sector wont build it - we dont get it
 

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TheBrownDog
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Appalling that keeping the lights on on the east coast has been so politicised that we cant even find a way forward.

AEMO is definitely concerned about the grid stability issue and the ability to deliver power to industry
 

Kwality

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its not politics, its money

NSW and Victoria both have been begging for the private sector to build new coal power plants. So far they have refused, and are closing the existing ones faster than they need to.

Best example, NSW govt when they wanted to shut down one of their own plants, had an offer from the private sector. They would take it over, if they got it for free, and a massive bag of money, and they would only keep operating it for a few more years.

I dont know the NSW policy, but given Victoria got out of socialized power generation, if the private sector wont build it - we dont get it

Why would anyone build anything when there is no certainty over the returns ? Who would want their Super to be involved?
 

Ned_Flanders

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Why would anyone build anything when there is no certainty over the returns ? Who would want their Super to be involved?

dude, thats capitalism

you build a cafe there is no guarantee of returns. same with a factory, a strip club, or a nursery.

if super funds, hedge funds, and investors only invested in projects with guaranteed returns, we would still be in caves
 

Kwality

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dude, thats capitalism

you build a cafe there is no guarantee of returns. same with a factory, a strip club, or a nursery.

if super funds, hedge funds, and investors only invested in projects with guaranteed returns, we would still be in caves

Indeed it is.
Note I said certainty not guarantee. We've got such a dogs breakfast, it reminds me of the Murray Darling.
 

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TheBrownDog
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dude, thats capitalism

you build a cafe there is no guarantee of returns. same with a factory, a strip club, or a nursery.

if super funds, hedge funds, and investors only invested in projects with guaranteed returns, we would still be in caves

actually it is not like that at all

we have a market that is not an open market and a product that is designed to allow dumping when in every other industry this would be illegal
 

Ned_Flanders

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Indeed it is.
Note I said certainty not guarantee. We've got such a dogs breakfast, it reminds me of the Murray Darling.

you dont get certainty in business either

regulations change every day, consumer preferences change every day, and contracts come and go

NO business should be given profit certainty
 

Ned_Flanders

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actually it is not like that at all

we have a market that is not an open market and a product that is designed to allow dumping when in every other industry this would be illegal

so you want the california option? free markets for power do one thing - lead to underinvestment in capacity because shortfalls equals more expensive power
 

SaintsSeptember

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so you want the california option? free markets for power do one thing - lead to underinvestment in capacity because shortfalls equals more expensive power

We ARE heading down the California path, and it sucks, and i think we need government intervention to prevent it.

Scenario:
I want to invest in Energy.

If I invest in a gas power station i can probably sell most of what i produce. BUT , i know others are investing in Wind and Solar, and the Government is working on the Snowy Hydro storage system ( will the cost of this be applied to renewable's )? This means i don't know how much of my energy i will sell as more and more renewable's come online. In ten years time i may struggle to sell any power if the wind is blowing and/or the sun is shining.
That makes it very difficult to amortise my costs over the life of the power station. What if a carbon tax is re-introduced or other costs associated with generating CO2.
If i was crazy enough to invest in this option, i would be looking to minimise my capital, rather than producing the lowest emitting power station.

If i invest in Wind or Solar, i will probably sell everything i generate. I can look up average solar /wind conditions to work out what i will produce per year and be able to amortise the capital comfortably. Its unlikely that the government will introduce new legislation to hinder or render less profitable these sorts of power stations. Therefore i choose this one. What if there is no wind or sun, and there is a power shortfall? Someone else's problem.

--------------
Should we expect an uninterrupted electricity supply?
Who should ensure that we have such an electricity supply?
Private power companies are not.