Moving Australia to 100% Renewable Energy would actually SAVE us money.

So have you sold your soul to a petrochemical company yet?

  • No, but I'm hoping they'll give me a call any day now!

  • Nah but I know a guy who knows a guy who has his snout in the trough. its a juicy racket!

  • Nope I stick to intelligent design & anti-vac, denying climate change is too loopy even for me

  • Yes and I would do it again! Money will buy me happiness so I crave MORE MORE MORE

  • Yes, but everyone else is doing it and the world's stuffed anyway and.... God I hate myself.


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SaintsSeptember

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the WA group has developed a 10 times improvement in charge density. So no weight difference but smaller with more charge.

a company notorious for vacuums has adopted along with a hand made british car manufacturer and a large well known german car manufacturer

My point was that the fast charge technology may not be compatible with the 10 times charge density technology.
Both are different replacements for the graphite.
 

Power Raid

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My point was that the fast charge technology may not be compatible with the 10 times charge density technology.
Both are different replacements for the graphite.

graphite enables fast charge due to the low expansion (heat) and high surface area (around 1m square per gram)........but it has a low charge density (the lowest at around 372mA/g.

the replacement will hold more charge at 4,200mA/g and having a surface area of more than 100m square per gram. so the recharge is even faster.
 

SaintsSeptember

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graphite enables fast charge due to the low expansion (heat) and high surface area (around 1m square per gram)........but it has a low charge density (the lowest at around 372mA/g.

the replacement will hold more charge at 4,200mA/g and having a surface area of more than 100m square per gram. so the recharge is even faster.

The link i posted was about a graphite replacement.
It talks about the limitations of graphite.

It talks about batteries that can be charged in 5 minutes, meaning that the bottleneck is then with the charging system, not the battery.
 

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Pessimistic

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By the time the last fossil burning power plant is pensioned off, there will be several generations of new power technologies, it’s not just what we have now.

‘anyway there’s still be mining and drilling to get stuff to make stuff with
 

SaintsSeptember

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By the time the last fossil burning power plant is pensioned off, there will be several generations of new power technologies, it’s not just what we have now.

‘anyway there’s still be mining and drilling to get stuff to make stuff with

You don't "pension off " a power station , then look around to see what you can replace it with. It takes a while to build the replacement.

If we were producing enough renewable power now ( 24 hour cover ) they would pretty much pension them off now.
 

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The link i posted was about a graphite replacement.
It talks about the limitations of graphite.

It talks about batteries that can be charged in 5 minutes, meaning that the bottleneck is then with the charging system, not the battery.

sorry I missed the link but this is very similar to what Australia has already successfully achieved.

From the article: the issue with germanium is many. the surface area is limited unless treated with a very high PH and an expensive physical process.

The main fails is germanium expands when heated and thus will fail (structural integrity) as ordinary silicon currently does (which they actually intend on using).......unless only forming 6-12% of the battery (which is the current limit).

The Western Australian technology has cracked this hard nut to crack, with a $50/t feed stock. What makes this so impressive is the feed stock only exists in Australia.
 

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You don't "pension off " a power station , then look around to see what you can replace it with. It takes a while to build the replacement.

If we were producing enough renewable power now ( 24 hour cover ) they would pretty much pension them off now.

I didn’t say any of the things you posted. And I didn’t limit power sources to renewables. All power comes from the sun, and at some point in the future, it wii burn out
 

Pessimistic

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So the morrison govt has a semi hard on for a brand new gas fired power station. It might fail as viable infrastructure, but it sure as hell might be a valuable As a political wedge.

the world of power and climate is far to nuanced, the govt need a simple issue it can thump the table over in an election, maybe a Adani doesn’t cut it any more, or the east west link. They need something equally as polarising they can wedge people on and hopefully gain retain some marginals.

call me cynical, but if the whole thing is a dud, or doesn’t get going, if it’s been this coming elections ‘Adani’ And wastes a motzah or two, but retains govt for the coalition, they will regard it as (our) money well spent

 

SaintsSeptember

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So the morrison govt has a semi hard on for a brand new gas fired power station. It might fail as viable infrastructure, but it sure as hell might be a valuable As a political wedge.

the world of power and climate is far to nuanced, the govt need a simple issue it can thump the table over in an election, maybe a Adani doesn’t cut it any more, or the east west link. They need something equally as polarising they can wedge people on and hopefully gain retain some marginals.

call me cynical, but if the whole thing is a dud, or doesn’t get going, if it’s been this coming elections ‘Adani’ And wastes a motzah or two, but retains govt for the coalition, they will regard it as (our) money well spent


We don't have a storage solution that can be implemented by 2023.
We probably don't want to have electricity rations at night.

I agree that it probably makes little economic sense, since the capitalists who run power companies are better served to build solar or wind. These capitalists will not care if their is an electricity shortfall at times of no wind or solar. Furthermore, they can sell their renewable certificates to the likes of Google, who will then claim to use only renewable energy , even though its a lie. ( People should really stop thinking of electricity as if its a tank of water ).

Gas stations like this one , are improving all the time. Its simplistic to cry "wah wah , stop burning hydrocarbons"

This one puts out 0.39 tonnes per MwH.
Liddell puts out around double that.

No its not perfection, but its a huge improvement.

Suppose you had a V8 Commodore, you scrape up enough money for a new Honda Civic. Would environmentalists yell at you because you didn't buy an electric car ( charged from Coal lol ), would they suggest that you just get rid of your old car, and its your problem if you can't get where you need to ?
Most people understand improvement as a process, but zealots only strive for perfection or nothing.

Incidentally Victoria have some gas stations that should be replaced by better gas stations.
Valley Power bought second hand turbines from New Zealand in 2001. The 1970s jet engines put out around 0.8 tonnes per MwH.
Origin built Mortlake Power station in 2008. Disappointingly it was a cheaper open cycle plant, but its newer design meant it has less than 0.6 tonnes per MwH.

I would hope that the new one being proposed is the better closed cycle type , but no-one is asking about that.
We dumb it down to Gas/Coal or renewable.
 

Pessimistic

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From a pollution (non. CO2) poin of view, electric cars make sense

from carbon emissions point of view, for private vehicles, it’s low return. Many people would travel 10,000km per year. It’s 40min per day at 40km/h

‘commercial vehicles is another thing altogether

in contrast rooftop solar could be working 50% of the time.


‘it makes no sense at all to subsidise electric cars
 

Pessimistic

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We don't have a storage solution that can be implemented by 2023.
We probably don't want to have electricity rations at night.

I agree that it probably makes little economic sense, since the capitalists who run power companies are better served to build solar or wind. These capitalists will not care if their is an electricity shortfall at times of no wind or solar. Furthermore, they can sell their renewable certificates to the likes of Google, who will then claim to use only renewable energy , even though its a lie. ( People should really stop thinking of electricity as if its a tank of water ).

Gas stations like this one , are improving all the time. Its simplistic to cry "wah wah , stop burning hydrocarbons"

This one puts out 0.39 tonnes per MwH.
Liddell puts out around double that.

No its not perfection, but its a huge improvement.

Suppose you had a V8 Commodore, you scrape up enough money for a new Honda Civic. Would environmentalists yell at you because you didn't buy an electric car ( charged from Coal lol ), would they suggest that you just get rid of your old car, and its your problem if you can't get where you need to ?
Most people understand improvement as a process, but zealots only strive for perfection or nothing.

Incidentally Victoria have some gas stations that should be replaced by better gas stations.
Valley Power bought second hand turbines from New Zealand in 2001. The 1970s jet engines put out around 0.8 tonnes per MwH.
Origin built Mortlake Power station in 2008. Disappointingly it was a cheaper open cycle plant, but its newer design meant it has less than 0.6 tonnes per MwH.

I would hope that the new one being proposed is the better closed cycle type , but no-one is asking about that.
We dumb it down to Gas/Coal or renewable.

My angle is that it could be an expensive political wedge, although in that light, much cheaper than the east west link

history proves the Libs have no qualms about using public money to provide a wedge
 

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SaintsSeptember

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My angle is that it could be an expensive political wedge, although in that light, much cheaper than the east west link

history proves the Libs have no qualms about using public money to provide a wedge

You may well be right, but i believe it can also be a major improvement for CO2 emissions, but that more scrutiny needs to be placed on "what sort of " gas plant is being planned.
 

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My angle is that it could be an expensive political wedge, although in that light, much cheaper than the east west link

history proves the Libs have no qualms about using public money to provide a wedge

Politics arent limited to any one group.
 

JoondalupJ

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We don't have a storage solution that can be implemented by 2023.
We probably don't want to have electricity rations at night.

I agree that it probably makes little economic sense, since the capitalists who run power companies are better served to build solar or wind. These capitalists will not care if their is an electricity shortfall at times of no wind or solar. Furthermore, they can sell their renewable certificates to the likes of Google, who will then claim to use only renewable energy , even though its a lie. ( People should really stop thinking of electricity as if its a tank of water ).

Gas stations like this one , are improving all the time. Its simplistic to cry "wah wah , stop burning hydrocarbons"

This one puts out 0.39 tonnes per MwH.
Liddell puts out around double that.

No its not perfection, but its a huge improvement.

Suppose you had a V8 Commodore, you scrape up enough money for a new Honda Civic. Would environmentalists yell at you because you didn't buy an electric car ( charged from Coal lol ), would they suggest that you just get rid of your old car, and its your problem if you can't get where you need to ?
Most people understand improvement as a process, but zealots only strive for perfection or nothing.

Incidentally Victoria have some gas stations that should be replaced by better gas stations.
Valley Power bought second hand turbines from New Zealand in 2001. The 1970s jet engines put out around 0.8 tonnes per MwH.
Origin built Mortlake Power station in 2008. Disappointingly it was a cheaper open cycle plant, but its newer design meant it has less than 0.6 tonnes per MwH.

I would hope that the new one being proposed is the better closed cycle type , but no-one is asking about that.
We dumb it down to Gas/Coal or renewable.
I guess there are lots of ways to go for this situation we're told we're in.
I've heard so many different theories and all the nay's and yea's and I
got to say I simply don't think there is a climate crisis going on at all.

May sound strange to some considering a pack of over blown politicians are flying and driving gas guzzling vehicles to this "we're all good blokes"fest of agreement and saving the world when it doesn't need saving and at the same time want to destroy jobs by fanciful ideas, of renewables.

That may work, but if not they're duds. we've seen a couple, but those that do operate now sometimes let everyone down.

Climate science has lots of theories and many theories and comments have been found to be wrong, or not properly peer reviewed and made official, Tim Flannery was on about junk he predicted nearly two decades ago?? NEVER HAPPENED
What about Al Gore, there are many things you and I are told and we have no idea how correct or how theorised they are, or totally wrong?
So here's where I sit , I look at the world and see an hysteria almost of religeous preportions where so called intelligent educated people play this global climate crisis game , and I can't work out if I am seeing some reality or whether these pollies and Prince Charles and heaven help us Greta, the new Christ, have sent the world insane.

So maybe I'm wrong, I just get the feeling there are lots like me who wonder what the hell is happening here.

I'll put a theory to you, maybe I've said this before, but what if the big big fuel and mining and business s' all over the world could see the climate nutters fanatics, getting hold of the general public, and seeing that lots are agreeing to this vague climate warming cult, that seems to be a disease entering the brains of lots of the worlds easily lef=d. Which we all are at times yes???

What if the big fuelers and miners and multi national billion dollar companies decided , hey maybe there is a quid in this renewable stuff, maybe we better get in on this if people start getting by with their own solar panels and batteried up motor cars, even if they are not that good, we may start to not be seriously and fabulously wealthy!! Anymore.

All this other bulldust that the warmers minority have created, maybe the big money wants control of saving the world. Ha ha ha . Which of course they are not saving anything but maybe theior wallets?

But its about money therefore its about politics because of money and giant business and that is why this Glasgow bulldust conference is happening (maybe?) and all the leaders are spewing out carbon dioxide to get there?

And the Greenies and the left are being run out of the town of the "business wise" on a rail.

Its either that or the climate crisis world has gone paranoid and deranged mentally, and Greta is really a witch.

Seriously BF people, climate crisis is just not happening , but people will believe anything and it seems the minorities are ruling. Like BLM, which has turned into a rampant racist operation causing more separation and division than it is supposed to be fixing. Its all left politics gone mad!
WORLD MADNESS. Maybe that asteroid is over due!
 

Grin

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I guess there are lots of ways to go for this situation we're told we're in.
I've heard so many different theories and all the nay's and yea's and I
got to say I simply don't think there is a climate crisis going on at all.

May sound strange to some considering a pack of over blown politicians are flying and driving gas guzzling vehicles to this "we're all good blokes"fest of agreement and saving the world when it doesn't need saving and at the same time want to destroy jobs by fanciful ideas, of renewables.

That may work, but if not they're duds. we've seen a couple, but those that do operate now sometimes let everyone down.

Climate science has lots of theories and many theories and comments have been found to be wrong, or not properly peer reviewed and made official, Tim Flannery was on about junk he predicted nearly two decades ago?? NEVER HAPPENED
What about Al Gore, there are many things you and I are told and we have no idea how correct or how theorised they are, or totally wrong?
So here's where I sit , I look at the world and see an hysteria almost of religeous preportions where so called intelligent educated people play this global climate crisis game , and I can't work out if I am seeing some reality or whether these pollies and Prince Charles and heaven help us Greta, the new Christ, have sent the world insane.

So maybe I'm wrong, I just get the feeling there are lots like me who wonder what the hell is happening here.

I'll put a theory to you, maybe I've said this before, but what if the big big fuel and mining and business s' all over the world could see the climate nutters fanatics, getting hold of the general public, and seeing that lots are agreeing to this vague climate warming cult, that seems to be a disease entering the brains of lots of the worlds easily lef=d. Which we all are at times yes???

What if the big fuelers and miners and multi national billion dollar companies decided , hey maybe there is a quid in this renewable stuff, maybe we better get in on this if people start getting by with their own solar panels and batteried up motor cars, even if they are not that good, we may start to not be seriously and fabulously wealthy!! Anymore.

All this other bulldust that the warmers minority have created, maybe the big money wants control of saving the world. Ha ha ha . Which of course they are not saving anything but maybe theior wallets?

But its about money therefore its about politics because of money and giant business and that is why this Glasgow bulldust conference is happening (maybe?) and all the leaders are spewing out carbon dioxide to get there?

And the Greenies and the left are being run out of the town of the "business wise" on a rail.

Its either that or the climate crisis world has gone paranoid and deranged mentally, and Greta is really a witch.

Seriously BF people, climate crisis is just not happening , but people will believe anything and it seems the minorities are ruling. Like BLM, which has turned into a rampant racist operation causing more separation and division than it is supposed to be fixing. Its all left politics gone mad!
WORLD MADNESS. Maybe that asteroid is over due!
When will people realise that you've watched a 20 minute YouTube video and so know much more about climate science than the combined knowledge of the worlds climate scientists?
But what I'm really interested in is your expert opinion on Ivermectin and its benefits in the management of symptoms of Covid-19?
 

Carringbush2010

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Now I'm no climate scientist / expert / enthusiast.

But I prompt a question, is 'net zero' actually achievable?

For example to make batteries that power EV's it is required to emit carbon to manufacture them, please correct me if need be.

This is just an example, same as solar panels - requires carbon to be emitted to manufacture them.

My point is, and this is not 'climate denying', is that the world does not have the technology (yet) to truly emit zero carbon. So to the thread title '100% renewable' is not actually a thing because at a start point emitting carbon is necessary to achieve that panel or battery.

On Friday, the govt. released it's vague modelling to reach '85%' less emissions, how they come to that number I don't know. And the other '15%' will come from future technologies. It's an admission 'we can't do it yet'

I'd argue no one on the planet can, the tech doesn't exist - yet if you're a govt. or opposition and say 'we can't coz no tech yet' you're a pariah.
 

Pessimistic

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Now I'm no climate scientist / expert / enthusiast.

But I prompt a question, is 'net zero' actually achievable?

For example to make batteries that power EV's it is required to emit carbon to manufacture them, please correct me if need be.

This is just an example, same as solar panels - requires carbon to be emitted to manufacture them.

My point is, and this is not 'climate denying', is that the world does not have the technology (yet) to truly emit zero carbon. So to the thread title '100% renewable' is not actually a thing because at a start point emitting carbon is necessary to achieve that panel or battery.

On Friday, the govt. released it's vague modelling to reach '85%' less emissions, how they come to that number I don't know. And the other '15%' will come from future technologies. It's an admission 'we can't do it yet'

I'd argue no one on the planet can, the tech doesn't exist - yet if you're a govt. or opposition and say 'we can't coz no tech yet' you're a pariah.

yes. Politics, the art of the possible.

I’d say aus has made huge progress in the last decade particularly domestic energy consumption (offset by a huge expansion indomestic aircon) but our export industries are major contributors. But trade related consumption?production?transport seems to be nowhere near measurable let alone apportioning responsibility.
Our trade related carbon would surely dwarf our domestic by many many factors

as noted, plenty of countries happy to step in if a country stops exporting
 

Carringbush2010

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yes. Politics, the art of the possible.

I’d say aus has made huge progress in the last decade particularly domestic energy consumption (offset by a huge expansion indomestic aircon) but our export industries are major contributors. But trade related consumption?production?transport seems to be nowhere near measurable let alone apportioning responsibility.
Our trade related carbon would surely dwarf our domestic by many many factors

as noted, plenty of countries happy to step in if a country stops exporting

Yet another angle.

Yes we rely on 'dirty' exports and we need to ween off them, it's going to have to happen 'slowly' for us here in Australia, and as you rightly point out other exporters will gladly come in and take our market share.

And that's the crux, IF we were to just all of a sudden go 'nup no dirty exports' and watch a drop in living standards overnight all the tree huggers would be conflicted - their living standards would be crushed like everyone else but would be pleased of 'us doing our bit'

Probably wouldn't hear about another country taking over our 'dirty exporting' - it'd be crickets and tumbleweeds.

I guess my point is it's not yet possible to achieve net zero AND the point you bring up here is that we rely on 'being the bad ones' i:e export fossil fuels to maintain our living standards. We're gonna have to go through pain to achieve either or both and it would all be for nothing unless the rest of the world also does their bit.