Science/Environment Moving Australia to 100% Renewable Energy would actually SAVE us money.

[Kwality]

new better technology requires new better infrastructure to work at maximum efficiency. shock horror!

but nah, lets keep using an inefficient system which was designed made for technology which is decades if not over 100 years old, and is so poorly maintained that it literally falls over and starts bushfires. We all know that technology was at its peak many decades ago. Thats why we are all driving cars from the 1950s.

So why were the solar farms built there? If I had have invested I have the promoters guts for garters.

When this thread was started*/claims over cheaper, I conclude these costs were not costed in, yes/no:
* Apr 2016

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...0-renewable-energy-would-save-australia-money

Unfortunately there's a catch - moving to renewables won't earn trillions for multinational fossil fuel companies or line the pockets of the Australian politicians in their possession.

So its business as usual, back to pretending climate change isn't real because there's too much money to be made polluting the atmosphere at the expense of our childrens' future.

Shows the folly of accepting modelling over the hard yards of professional due diligence.

 

[Kwality]

new better technology requires new better infrastructure to work at maximum efficiency. shock horror!

but nah, lets keep using an inefficient system which was designed made for technology which is decades if not over 100 years old, and is so poorly maintained that it literally falls over and starts bushfires. We all know that technology was at its peak many decades ago. Thats why we are all driving cars from the 1950s.

When I challenge this sort of thing only the village idiot would read something else into it. At no point did I shitcan solar energy, why would you misrepresent my position? I've put my money were my mouth is.

 

[medusala]

theres a very good reason china is REDUCING its use of coal. we would be ******* idiots not to follow suit. Then again, we are a conservative (for the developed world) hole that likes to use public money to prop up the profits of the rich few who own the various mining industries.

China coal-fired power capacity still rising, bucking global trend: study

China raised its coal-fired power capacity by 42.9 gigawatts (GW), or about 4.5%, in the 18 months to June, connecting new projects to the grid at a time when capacity in the rest of the world shrank, according to a study published on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

SHANGHAI (Reuters) - China raised its coal-fired power capacity by 42.9 gigawatts (GW), or about 4.5%, in the 18 months to June, connecting new projects to the grid at a time when capacity in the rest of the world shrank, according to a study published on Wednesday.

 

[Sainteric]

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...0-renewable-energy-would-save-australia-money

Unfortunately there's a catch - moving to renewables won't earn trillions for multinational fossil fuel companies or line the pockets of the Australian politicians in their possession.

So its business as usual, back to pretending climate change isn't real because there's too much money to be made polluting the atmosphere at the expense of our childrens' future.

The biggest fantasy tale ever told.

Germany is trying to do this and have been very honest and said it will cost the government and taxpayers billions.

Don't entertain outrageous lies

 

[Sainteric]

but but....what about what about those ads telling us about how amazing coal is.....



"isnt it amazing what a little black rock can do"...

theres a very good reason china is REDUCING its use of coal. we would be ******* idiots not to follow suit. Then again, we are a conservative (for the developed world) hole that likes to use public money to prop up the profits of the rich few who own the various mining industries.

FFS China is building 121 GWatts of Coal power generation right now that is 40 Loy yang A and BS Australia's largest generator. More than the rest of the world combined. They are the enemy No 1 of climate change. Their emissions are increasing and will decimate any savings the west will make.

 

[DAlembert]

It will be a long time before all our energy needs are covered by renewables. Australia should have begun a nuclear power plant but of course the politics of this country has held us back..added to Chernobyl and Fukushima. Unfortunately the transition away from Coal is decades away. So renewables + hydro and coal are the way forward for the time being. Crunching the nos on the would we save money is like contemplating the origin of the universe but on the surface the answer looks like a no. It really is time to get the Nuclear Power discussion up and running.

 

[Kwality]

It will be a long time before all our energy needs are covered by renewables. Australia should have begun a nuclear power plant but of course the politics of this country has held us back..added to Chernobyl and Fukushima. Unfortunately the transition away from Coal is decades away. So renewables + hydro and coal are the way forward for the time being. Crunching the nos on the would we save money is like contemplating the origin of the universe but on the surface the answer looks like a no. It really is time to get the Nuclear Power discussion up and running.

A truly independent costing is needed BUT its a bit difficult achieving it.
I ask why China & India would commit to coal IF renewables are cheaper as we are told in Aus.

Why is it impossible to cost ?

 

[DAlembert]

A truly independent costing is needed BUT its a bit difficult achieving it.
I ask why China & India would commit to coal IF renewables are cheaper as we are told in Aus.

Why is it impossible to cost ?

So many variables...China is building up to 58 Nuclear reactors and is huge in Hydro...wind farms and solar. However there energy needs now and into the future are so big that burning coal for power is a necessity and still their largest energy source. It's a transition world wide ...how long how much does anybody know?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

So many variables...China is building up to 58 Nuclear reactors and is huge in Hydro...wind farms and solar. However there energy needs now and into the future are so big that burning coal for power is a necessity and still their largest energy source. It's a transition world wide ...how long how much does anybody know?

A lot of the Chinese coal plans are to replace existing cold war era relics, which are highly inefficient and horrid for pollution.

 

[DAlembert]

A lot of the Chinese coal plans are to replace existing cold war era relics, which are highly inefficient and horrid for pollution.

Having been to China and seen a lot of the infrastructure building first hand I have no doubt this is true. I was told Beijing was smog city in my week there I saw none must have been the weather pattern...saw many many Electric Cars however. Factories have been moved away from city also.

 

[Power Raid]

FFS China is building 121 GWatts of Coal power generation right now that is 40 Loy yang A and BS Australia's largest generator. More than the rest of the world combined. They are the enemy No 1 of climate change. Their emissions are increasing and will decimate any savings the west will make.

orange is advanced economies and yellow developing world

from around 2000, the developing world's impact can be seen. It doesn't mean we shouldn't look at having less polluting power generation (broader than just CO2 focus) but it does question how effective the trillions wasted on renewables are.

 

[Kwality]

How could promoters of wind & solar projects have not known of potential problems significantly effecting the cost of electricity generated.

Localising the problems:
The Northern Territory energy market regulator has blamed the Labor government for bungling the transition to renewables so badly that it has been forced to impose changes that could discourage solar investment and increase consumer power bills.
In an extraordinary determination released on Friday, the Utilities Commission said it had been compelled to act because the volume of new solar generation entering the Darwin-Katherine grid was in danger of making the system unstable.

The changes are expected to force new solar generators to build individual battery storage units that could retrospectively add tens of millions of dollars to the costs of projects already under way, without necessarily reducing the risks of blackouts.

Italian energy giant ENI described the plan in a submission to the commission in January as “using forecasting accuracy to merely maintain the poor level of existing power system reliability at great expense”, and warned it would add at least $20m to the cost of its projects. Assure Energy said in its submission responding to the draft determination that it would face an extra $10m in costs.

“The financial imposition … would impact our ability to make future investments,” it said.

Start-up NT Solar Futures warned the new generator performance standards — designed by the public utility Power and Water Corporation — might purport to support the government’s target of 50 per cent renewable energy by 2030 but would “drive up complexity and costs, making the NT unattractive for investment and/or driving up energy prices for consumers”.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Theres more:

... heavy penalties for some of the solar farms already badly hit by grid constraints and “system strength” issues in north-west Victoria and south-west NSW.

These include the five solar farms which have had their output cut in half by AEMO for fear of uncontrollable “oscillations” should a major link fail. The worst hit is the the 52MW Broken Hill solar farm in New South Wales, which has gone from a rating of 97.89 back in 2018, to 0.75 in 2019, and down again to a recommended 0.70 this year.

This means that just 70 per cent of its output will be credited for revenue.

Solar projects, some wind farms hit by more transmission downgrades

Solar farms and wind farms across the NEM hit by deeper transmission losses, although there is a reprieve for some.

reneweconomy.com.au

Not much chance of any meaningful reduction in power prices here?

 

[Grin]

It will be a long time before all our energy needs are covered by renewables. Australia should have begun a nuclear power plant but of course the politics of this country has held us back..added to Chernobyl and Fukushima. Unfortunately the transition away from Coal is decades away. So renewables + hydro and coal are the way forward for the time being. Crunching the nos on the would we save money is like contemplating the origin of the universe but on the surface the answer looks like a no. It really is time to get the Nuclear Power discussion up and running.

Supporters of nuclear need a reality check: it's staggeringly expensive

Even the cost of small reactors is prohibitive.

www.theage.com.au

 

[Power Raid]

How could promoters of wind & solar projects have not known of potential problems significantly effecting the cost of electricity generated.

Localising the problems:
The Northern Territory energy market regulator has blamed the Labor government for bungling the transition to renewables so badly that it has been forced to impose changes that could discourage solar investment and increase consumer power bills.
In an extraordinary determination released on Friday, the Utilities Commission said it had been compelled to act because the volume of new solar generation entering the Darwin-Katherine grid was in danger of making the system unstable.

The changes are expected to force new solar generators to build individual battery storage units that could retrospectively add tens of millions of dollars to the costs of projects already under way, without necessarily reducing the risks of blackouts.

Italian energy giant ENI described the plan in a submission to the commission in January as “using forecasting accuracy to merely maintain the poor level of existing power system reliability at great expense”, and warned it would add at least $20m to the cost of its projects. Assure Energy said in its submission responding to the draft determination that it would face an extra $10m in costs.

“The financial imposition … would impact our ability to make future investments,” it said.

Start-up NT Solar Futures warned the new generator performance standards — designed by the public utility Power and Water Corporation — might purport to support the government’s target of 50 per cent renewable energy by 2030 but would “drive up complexity and costs, making the NT unattractive for investment and/or driving up energy prices for consumers”.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Theres more:

... heavy penalties for some of the solar farms already badly hit by grid constraints and “system strength” issues in north-west Victoria and south-west NSW.

These include the five solar farms which have had their output cut in half by AEMO for fear of uncontrollable “oscillations” should a major link fail. The worst hit is the the 52MW Broken Hill solar farm in New South Wales, which has gone from a rating of 97.89 back in 2018, to 0.75 in 2019, and down again to a recommended 0.70 this year.

This means that just 70 per cent of its output will be credited for revenue.

Solar projects, some wind farms hit by more transmission downgrades

Solar farms and wind farms across the NEM hit by deeper transmission losses, although there is a reprieve for some.

reneweconomy.com.au

Not much chance of any meaningful reduction in power prices here?

dodgy management collects the subsidies and steals hard earned savings to pay their wages, performance bonuses and free carried equity. "who cares if the thing actually works, a fool and their money are soon parted" as they run away with the money.



government is happy as the incremental costs manage expectations and can be hidden in the blame game. ie "the grid was roll royced.......it was someone else's fault"

the renewables lobby and arm waving supporters can hide behind the same excuse for costs and point to one more excuse like "renewables could work but for AEMO, but the government and but the dog ate my renewables"



it is time for ASIC to step in and hold these corrupt operators and financial institutions to account

 

[Power Raid]

Supporters of nuclear need a reality check: it's staggeringly expensive

Even the cost of small reactors is prohibitive.

www.theage.com.au

there is no doubt we won't build a gen 3.5, so I'm not sure why the costings of a gen 3.5 are relevant

rolls royce SMRs are 7.7 cents per kwh
US nuclear at 3.3 cents per kwh

not only cheaper than renewables but safer and actually effective in reducing CO2.

Can you think of one jurisdiction on the planet where renewables have worked? Not one place with a renewables strategy has 14-70g per kwh without a significant nuclear or hydro power generation! Worse, with hydro or nuclear, you don't need renewables, so you increase costs and CO2 for no reason.

 

[Kwality]

Supporters of nuclear need a reality check: it's staggeringly expensive

Even the cost of small reactors is prohibitive.

www.theage.com.au

Can we believe the costings?

 

[Grin]

Can we believe the costings?

We should only ever believe Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones when it comes to all things science
They know far more that all of the worlds scientists combined. If you don't believe me, just ask them.

 

[FireKrakouer]

I love how lefties believe s**t like "renewables are actually cheaper than coal" and "providing universal healthcare to all Americans would cost the gov less than the current system".

And I am actually all for having clean energy here and free healthcare for seppos, but let's not lie about this s**t somehow being "cheaper". Engage your common sense!

 

[FireKrakouer]

Can we believe the costings?

Of course not, it's propoganda. Notice they only offer costs of building reactors, no $/kWh numbers, or anything that's actually meaningful.

Half of Europe run on the stuff and their power bills are cheap as s**t, and that's without having the epic reserves of nuclear fuel that Australia sits on. But the coal lobby and renewables lobby have joined forces to spread misinformation about the cheapest, cleanest, safest energy source known to man.

 

[DAlembert]

Supporters of nuclear need a reality check: it's staggeringly expensive

Even the cost of small reactors is prohibitive.

www.theage.com.au

An Age journalist...not sure he is credible.?

 

[Kwality]

We should only ever believe Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones when it comes to all things science
They know far more that all of the worlds scientists combined. If you don't believe me, just ask them.

Thanks for that ... this is about the cost of electricity & the nonsense we've been fed on cost.

I question why China & India keep building coal power stations when Australia is told renewables are cheaper. Just maybe we used a different set of numbers, say didnt include the grid costs because some one else will pay for that.

 

[FireKrakouer]

Thanks for that ... this is about the cost of electricity & the nonsense we've been fed on cost.

I question why China & India keep building coal power stations when Australia is told renewables are cheaper. Just maybe we used a different set of numbers, say didnt include the grid costs because some one else will pay for that.

They lie by using full capacity stats.

Ie a 1MW coal plant vs a 1MW solar farm... which produces more at midnight?

 

[Grin]

Well, of course, a couple of parliamentary enquiries now have shown nuclear power plants to be stupidly expensive. But I wouldn't want to stand between anti science nutters and the billions upon billions of tax payer dollars they think us inner city elites can keep shelling out to humour their delusions.
Sorry to intrude. As you were.

 

[Kwality]

They lie by using full capacity stats.

Ie a 1MW coal plant vs a 1MW solar farm... which produces more at midnight?

Why would a potential investor miss that in due diligence .....

 

[Kwality]

Interesting from the Nine newspapers
Renewables are already cheaper than new coal-fired power stations in all major markets, exposing almost a trillion dollars of new investments and denting Australia's coal exports.
The report's findings hinge in part on deregulated markets that allow developers to make full use of the rapid falls in solar and wind technology.

Renewables to make $1 trillion in new coal-fired plants uncompetitive

Analysis published on Thursday by Carbon Tracker also fund that by 2030 at the latest, new wind and solar farms will be cheaper to build than existing coal plants.

www.smh.com.au

So thats a claim on the investment not the cost to the supplier ?

The take from The Guardian:
Wind and solar plants will soon be cheaper than coal in all big markets around world, analysis finds
In terms of coal use, the International Energy Agency found it declined last year, but forecast a slight increase over the next five years due to rising demand from India.

Wind and solar plants will soon be cheaper than coal in all big markets around world, analysis finds

Report raises fresh doubt about viability of Australia’s thermal coal export industry

www.theguardian.com

So many weasel worlds on both sides, thats why I take my lead from my power bill.