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Muhammad Ali

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Ford Fairlane said:
It's a great interview because Ali is still mentally acute but Parko provokes him enough to see beyond the faultless testimonials we hear now. He was The Greatest and a spiritual leader, but he was also a man of many contradictions who could be brutally cruel to those he didn't like.

And Parko's Bugner comment was way out of line. He was peculiarly unloved by the Brits, the press in particular, and as you say probably because he beat Henry Cooper (by a quarter of a point) and 'Our 'Enery' was so loved.

Foreman and Bugner were likely to fight in 1977 but both lost key heavyweight fights, George against Jimmy Young and Joe against Ron Lyle. George had his epiphany after the Young fight and was effectively finished until his comeback 10 years later.
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Yeah, unfortunately for George he couln't handle boxers who could stick, move and sway out of trouble . Just the fight before he had separated Frazier from six of his teeth and the bandwagon was gaining momentum and I will never forget the sight of Joe slumped in corner minus those big pearly whites. Like Ali said , it's all about styles.
You can see in the beginning of Parkos interview that Ali was still venting because of the patronising press in the lead up to the Foreman fight. Like George said, ' I had people from the media who were saying to me , 'don't be too hard on old Muhammad '. He definitely did have an acid side but it was born from the bigotry, hate and bias he had to deal with but his cruelty was nothing compared to what he copped. He didn't tolerate other black boxers who he saw as 'uncle toms' which was harsh by him but then again some boxers like Terrell just antagonised it all by refusing to call Ali by his true name. Ali and Bundini had shots fired at them by rednecks at a training camp before his comeback fight v Quarry in 1970 which was kept very quiet such was the dislike for Ali. Then he had to tolerate the other side of racial extremity by having an old black man brought into his room minutes before the fight by black extremists. The old man dropped his pants to show that had been castrated by the 'klan' and had the letters KKK carved into his chest. The extremists saw this as motivation but Ali was almost traumatised by it yet he still won the fight.
Like many long time boxing fans I started out as a kid hating Ali but as I grew up, watched more boxing, read boxing mags, read books even did a little[not very good] boxing , I formed my true opinion. There will never be another era like the second half of Ali's career with Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Lyle, Shavers, Bugner, Bonevena, Quarry etc.
 
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Garibaldi Red said:
There was a recent SBS documentary called The Trials of Muhammad Ali" unfortunately I hadn't seen this beforehand and only caught the last 10 minutes.

So glad for On Demand

http://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/video/253256771667/The-Trials-Of-Muhammad-Ali
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Stuck this in the 'I get really a get these days brother' thread last Sunday when it was on

Just watching The Trials of Muhammad Ali on SBS. Love the opening scene where he is in a studio in Chicago and over in London they are conducting one of the early via satellite - 1968 - with host Eamon Andrews. On the show was a US TV host David Susskind. Over his 20 years Susskind was seen as a progressive and liberal commentator, but he starts the interview in brutal manner. Maybe being 5,000 miles away made it easier to say what he did.

"I find nothing amusing, or interesting or tolerable about this man. He's a disgrace - to his country, his race, and to what he laughingly describes as his profession. He is a convicted felon of the United States. He's been found guilty. He is out on bail. He will inevitably go to prison as well he should. He is a simplistic fool and a pawn." Then it jumps forward to 2005 where Bush awards him the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Found this scene on You Tube.

 

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A few more links from the doco. Biggest discussion of his Muslim conversion I have ever seen and those who helped convert him.




 
Just as a more light-hearted aside I think it was before the Foreman fight, both fighters had their weigh in and were clothed only in very sheer briefs to ensure the recorded weights were accurate. The weigh in is a big media event and a Frenchwoman reporting on the fight looked at Ali and said 'Ah Muhammad now I see why they call you The Greatest'. :D
 
Thanks for the video links REH.

I was watching the '66 World Cup documentary "Goal" and you see the great man entering the stadium, the torunament was held around the time he fought Henry Cooper for the second time.

I hadn't seen this documentary since it was first released and that had missed that part as an 8 yo.
 
When I think of Ali, I think the greatest. However, I along with many other think there was one better ... Iron Mike Tyson!

What a sensational match up, but the raw ferocity has me believing Tyson might have actually killed Ali, with one punch, had they met?

Ali was an athlete, had every right to have an off day. Tyson was just born to fight, unbeatable if switched on.

My verdict is Tyson in a 2nd round knockout!
 
Fighters needed a few things to beat Tyson . 1] Confidence 2] The ability to stick and move 3] The ability to sway back and sideways to stay out of range 4] The ability to box well at range [ see Buster Douglas ] 4] The ability to tie him up in close [ see Buster Douglas] 5] The ability to throw punches in combinations 6]Mental toughness 7] Stamina 8] A tough jaw. Ali had all that in spades. I used to have a picture of Ali v Foreman showing big George throwing a big right hand [ same right hand that stiffed Norton and Frazier ] that literally missed because Alis jaw by a whisker because he had flicked his head just an inch or so to the side . The amazing thing about it was that Alis eyes were wide open watching the potentially lethal punch wizz by. That's confidence, defence and mental toughness that allowed Ali to do that, to truly box , to hit and not be hit . Every boxer who could box and was truly confident [ as against pretending like Mike Spinks ] gave Tyson a hard time. A lot of people didn't realise that Tony Tucker fought Tyson with a broken hand yet still went the distance because he could box.
 
werner said:
When I think of Ali, I think the greatest. However, I along with many other think there was one better ... Iron Mike Tyson!

What a sensational match up, but the raw ferocity has me believing Tyson might have actually killed Ali, with one punch, had they met?

Ali was an athlete, had every right to have an off day. Tyson was just born to fight, unbeatable if switched on.

My verdict is Tyson in a 2nd round knockout!
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Which Mike Tyson vs which Ali?? Ali basically was banned during his peak years of 25 to 29 the 3.5 years he spent in court fighting the draft. Foreman was as big a puncher as Tyson, just not as wild a brawler and not as ruthless. A 32 year old Ali would have rope a doped Tyson just like he did with Foreman, the question is where Mike would have been more ruthless than Foreman when he had him on the ropes.
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
Which Mike Tyson vs which Ali?? Ali basically was banned during his peak years of 25 to 29 the 3.5 years he spent in court fighting the draft. Foreman was as big a puncher as Tyson, just not as wild a brawler and not as ruthless. A 32 year old Ali would have rope a doped Tyson just like he did with Foreman, the question is where Mike would have been more ruthless than Foreman when he had him on the ropes.
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Agreed, and lets not forget Tyson battled with drugs and alcohol most of his career. If he'd been clean we would probably call him the greatest ever.

Ali still holds the mantle in my mind.
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
Which Mike Tyson vs which Ali?? Ali basically was banned during his peak years of 25 to 29 the 3.5 years he spent in court fighting the draft. Foreman was as big a puncher as Tyson, just not as wild a brawler and not as ruthless. A 32 year old Ali would have rope a doped Tyson just like he did with Foreman, the question is where Mike would have been more ruthless than Foreman when he had him on the ropes.
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I agree in principle, had we been given the chance of such a meeting, well I'm tipping the smart money would be on Ali in a points win. However, as Ali was the better exponent, he'd win on points day in, day out. The factor that goes in Tyson's favour is that he would only need his opponent to zone out for just a couple of seconds, and BANG! WTF just hit me!

Ali was a better fighter for an hour, Tyson was brutal for just a few seconds.

What a match-up!
 
werner said:
I agree in principle, had we been given the chance of such a meeting, well I'm tipping the smart money would be on Ali in a points win. However, as Ali was the better exponent, he'd win on points day in, day out. The factor that goes in Tyson's favour is that he would only need his opponent to zone out for just a couple of seconds, and BANG! WTF just hit me!

Ali was a better fighter for an hour, Tyson was brutal for just a few seconds.

What a match-up!
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Ali would tease iron Mike, and then pick him off with his `sting like a bee ' jabs, but he would have to stay away from him early, because as you suggest, one lapse and it would be lights out.
 

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Young Ali knocked out one of the most fearsome heavyweights of all time in Sonny Liston.

Older Ali knocked out one of the most fearsome heavyweights of all time in George Foreman.

Don't underestimate the hitting power of either of these guys compared to Tyson.

Ali would have stopped Tyson.
 
1954 said:
Ali would tease iron Mike, and then pick him off with his `sting like a bee ' jabs, but he would have to stay away from him early, because as you suggest, one lapse and it would be lights out.
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Exactly!

Cheers my friend.
 
Pffft
Ford Fairlane said:
Young Ali knocked out one of the most fearsome heavyweights of all time in Sonny Liston.

Older Ali knocked out one of the most fearsome heavyweights of all time in George Foreman.

Don't underestimate the hitting power of either of these guys compared to Tyson.

Ali would have stopped Tyson.
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, Liston and Foreman were capable of assault, Tyson was all about murder!
 
werner said:
Pffft

, Liston and Foreman were capable of assault, Tyson was all about murder!
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When Sonny Liston fought Floyd Patterson for the world title, Sonny knocked Floyd out in one round. In the title rematch Sonny knocked out Floyd in one round. He was a beast and most thought him capable of murder.

George knocked out Joe Frazier in two rounds. He beat him senseless with 6 knockdowns in those two rounds. Nobody did that to Frazier. He destroyed Ken Norton in two rounds. Norton was one of the toughest heavyweights to go around. George was a phenomenal hitter, 6 feet 4 inches 220 pounds as imposing a heavyweight as there was to that time.

Tyson was as brutal a hitter as I've seen but modern telecasts gave us a better look at him and all the attendant hype that blew his reputation up even more. Ali would have worked him over with either speed or his range of ringcraft tricks. And stopped him.
 
Ford Fairlane said:
Ali would have worked him over with either speed or his range of ringcraft tricks. And stopped him.
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This is the only part worth debating. Yes, the rest happened, and is almost irrelevant. The fact that both fought in different eras is that no one is right or wrong. Would've been the greatest fight in history!

Simply put, if I was a betting man, I'd go Ali, hoping that he spent the majority of the bout close to the ropes.
 
When boxing was an art, Ali painted it's masterpieces. I liked Tyson when he was young, raw and brutal, but I don't think he would have had what it took to beat Ali, unless he got a lucky devastating head punch to put Ali off his game early. Ali danced so good that he rarely allowed this to happen
 

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werner said:
This is the only part worth debating. Yes, the rest happened, and is almost irrelevant. The fact that both fought in different eras is that no one is right or wrong. Would've been the greatest fight in history!

Simply put, if I was a betting man, I'd go Ali, hoping that he spent the majority of the bout close to the ropes.
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Would have been amazing. Tyson's first few years as champion were as devastating as you could see. I still reckon Michael Spinks felt the fury of his hitting and decided 'money's in the bank, no need to get seriously hurt here.'
 
2 completely different boxers, I'll put up this scenario.
If you were given the chance, say a competition win to face either Ali or Tyson for one round, who would you choose?
A round with Ali and come out black and blue, or Tyson, where tomorrow may never come?
 
werner said:
2 completely different boxers, I'll put up this scenario.
If you were given the chance, say a competition win to face either Ali or Tyson for one round, who would you choose?
A round with Ali and come out black and blue, or Tyson, where tomorrow may never come?
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I know Ali would take pity on me. Tyson, yeah nah. ;)
 
I_Dont_Care said:
Ali rates this bloke as the hardest hitter he faced, or the strongest at least

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Shavers was a monster hitter. Had a savage uppercut, loved peek a boo fighters.
 

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