Research Mystery of George Simmonds - early indigenous player (Melbourne/Richmond Seconds?)

Remove this Banner Ad

Supermercado

The straw that stirs the drink
Dec 18, 2002
9,326
4,137
demonwiki.org
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
AFC Wimbledon, Atlanta Braves
On George Johnstone, found another article that specifically spells the player from Coranderrk as "Johnstone" rather than Johnson. That's enough for me, I'm not making a call on him being indigenous or not (and I doubt it because surely in 1897 there's be a bigger focus in articles) but I'm taking him off the 'where are they from' list. Hoping to study permit records soon and see if there's two Johnson/Johnstones at the club that year.
 

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
7,822
9,670
Adelaide
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
On George Johnstone, found another article that specifically spells the player from Coranderrk as "Johnstone" rather than Johnson. That's enough for me, I'm not making a call on him being indigenous or not (and I doubt it because surely in 1897 there's be a bigger focus in articles) but I'm taking him off the 'where are they from' list. Hoping to study permit records soon and see if there's two Johnson/Johnstones at the club that year.
I'm still mystified with this one! Perhaps the answer is indeed that there were two people at Melbourne with that (same/similar) name in 1897. G. Johnston went from Melbourne to Port Melbourne in May 1898:-
1550809852183.png

Obviously, the AFL records say that the George Johnstone who played for Melbourne in 1897 played again in 1898. Port Melbourne has George Johnson debuting for them in 1898 and playing a total of 34 games:
1550809617468.png

As pointed out in this post on the previous page, an August 1898 newspaper article said "Port Melbourne have secured a player with a big reputation as a 'baller from Corranderrk". Was this referring to the recruit from Melbourne (who should have been at the club since late May)? There has to be an answer to this out there somewhere; it's about time it turned up!!
 
Last edited:

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
7,822
9,670
Adelaide
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
On George Johnstone, found another article that specifically spells the player from Coranderrk as "Johnstone" rather than Johnson. That's enough for me, I'm not making a call on him being indigenous or not (and I doubt it because surely in 1897 there's be a bigger focus in articles) but I'm taking him off the 'where are they from' list. Hoping to study permit records soon and see if there's two Johnson/Johnstones at the club that year.
1605797571517.png

From Ancestry:
1605797631390.png

1605797710254.png

1605797879060.png

1605797774499.png

1605798011141.png

1605798126137.png

As long as the AFL have the right person in their records (and this information on Ancestry is correct) then the 1897-98 Melbourne player wasn't indigenous.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
7,822
9,670
Adelaide
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
This one continues to bug me! This is the person the AFL records have playing for Melbourne in 1924:
1605840130461.png


On Ancestry:
1605840661622.png

1605840743787.png

That's clearly not the George Simmonds (pictured below in 1933) who played for Northcote. The Melbourne player is considered to be the third indigenous person to have played in the VFL/AFL.
1605841261828.png


I suspect that in George Leslie Simmonds (1895-1973) the AFL have the right person but have his ethnicity wrong. They must be going mostly on the appearance of the Northcote player, believing he was the Melbourne player from 1924.
1605843882552.png

I think there has to have been two George Simmonds playing around that time. The Kerang man seems to have spent most of his life living in that town:
1605847054813.png

George Matherson Greyville Simmonds is much more likely to be the Northcote/Richmond Seconds player:
1605847242859.png

The Northcote player was still playing in 1936 - George Leslie Simmonds was 41 that year (Edit: still at Northcote in 1938, so meant to be 43!), while the above chap was a more realistic 30 when that season was played. Also, he was living at Richmond and Northcote around the time he played for those clubs:
1605848345362.png

1605849711404.png

1605848852131.png


TBC>!
 
Last edited:

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
7,822
9,670
Adelaide
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
Simmonds saga!:
We can see here Simmonds was playing for Richmond Seconds at about the same time as the ex-Melbourne player was looking for a club elsewhere:
1605850067432.png

1605850338525.png


1605868187775.png


There's never any mention that he once played with Melbourne. There's virtually no chance that the Melbourne player is the same player who was with Richmond Seconds, Murtoa and Northcote, just a fair coincidence that two forwards named George Simmonds happened to be around at the same time!
 
Last edited:

rbartlett

Club Legend
Jan 5, 2004
1,387
1,454
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Richmond
So your suggesting the Simmonds for Richmond Seconds then went to Murtoa, then to Northcote. (with no connection to Melbourne FC)
And that he is George Materson "Nugget" Simmonds, possibly Indigenous, and that he is the guy in the photo wearing the Northcote guernsey? Is that right
 

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
7,822
9,670
Adelaide
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
So your suggesting the Simmonds for Richmond Seconds then went to Murtoa, then to Northcote. (with no connection to Melbourne FC)
And that he is George Materson "Nugget" Simmonds, possibly Indigenous, and that he is the guy in the photo wearing the Northcote guernsey? Is that right
Yes, pretty much. I think it simply has to be right that they're two different people.

He's in this 1933 Northcote team photo: http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/Northcote+Senior+Team+1933+(SLV+122_059)
1605869127202.png
 
Last edited:

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
7,822
9,670
Adelaide
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
So your suggesting the Simmonds for Richmond Seconds then went to Murtoa, then to Northcote. (with no connection to Melbourne FC)
And that he is George Materson "Nugget" Simmonds, possibly Indigenous, and that he is the guy in the photo wearing the Northcote guernsey? Is that right
This is probably him trying out at Richmond in 1924:
1605871360765.png

Assuming it is him (Richmond Seconds 1925-27 player), I think this is rather significant. The Richmond player was a local lad, the Melbourne chap came down from Kerang later that year (1924).
 
Last edited:

Bandit55

Debutant
Apr 1, 2010
95
96
AFL Club
Sydney
George L Simmonds was living in Kerang in 1916, he applied for an exemption from military duties for family reasons:


Hawthorn's Roy Simmonds was from Koondrook:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/h...ad703fc43?sv=d51636b3412df24cca68ac20e2df5f56

is it possible that George L and Roy were related?
 

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
7,822
9,670
Adelaide
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
George L Simmonds was living in Kerang in 1916, he applied for an exemption from military duties for family reasons:


Hawthorn's Roy Simmonds was from Koondrook:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/h...ad703fc43?sv=d51636b3412df24cca68ac20e2df5f56

is it possible that George L and Roy were related?
It's certainly possible. Roy Simmonds was born in 1928, while George Leslie Simmonds was married in 1930, so very unlikely to be father and son. According to Ancestry Murray George was the only child of George Leslie. Roy's father was Percival William.

What do you know!:
1605965012094.png

1605962068572.png

Percival William Simmonds was George Leslie's brother. Brilliant!

This is Roy's father:
1605962171045.png

1605964968363.png


1605962764437.png

1605963378113.png
 
Last edited:

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
7,822
9,670
Adelaide
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
George L Simmonds was living in Kerang in 1916, he applied for an exemption from military duties for family reasons:


Hawthorn's Roy Simmonds was from Koondrook:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/h...ad703fc43?sv=d51636b3412df24cca68ac20e2df5f56

is it possible that George L and Roy were related?
Please refresh the page, and check my edited post! Great stuff!
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
Mar 6, 2011
7,822
9,670
Adelaide
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Collingwood (VFL), Man Utd.
I did send an email regarding the Simmonds' story to the AFL chaps on Friday night, and have now heard from Col H. This is the key bit from his response:
Thanks for clarifying the Simmonds situation.

I will adjust the AFL records accordingly.

================================
So that will mean Melbourne 1924 player George Leslie Simmonds is no longer on the AFL's list of all-time indigenous players, as they now accept that the Melbourne player was a different person to the Richmond Seconds/Murtoa/Northcote player.
 
Last edited:

rbartlett

Club Legend
Jan 5, 2004
1,387
1,454
Melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Other Teams
Richmond
Just to close this off - do we have a DOB and DOD for George Materson Simmonds (the Richmond/Murtoa/Northcote) player, I couldn't see it in the thread.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Remove this Banner Ad